Date   

Re: Atlas 11,000 tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff,

Adding to what Ed wrote, anhydrous ammonia is used as a
fertilizer, and is a byproduct of the petroleum refining
process. Thus your Hooker car would be prototypical spotted
at a refinery, a farmer's co-op, or even a team track for
local delivery.

Shawn Beckert

And from the immeasurable World Wide Web:
-----------------------------------------

"The chief commercial method of producing ammonia is by the Haber-Bosch
process, which involves the direct synthesis of the compound from its
constituent elements. Ammonia from the Haber-Bosch process is supplemented
by ammonia obtained as a by-product of coke ovens.

"The major use of ammonia is as a fertilizer. It is most commonly applied
directly to the soil from tanks containing the liquefied gas. Additional
quantities are converted into ammonium nitrate, ammonium phosphate, and
other salts that also are utilized primarily in commercial fertilizers.

"In the textile industry ammonia is used in the manufacture of synthetic
fibers such as nylon and rayon. In addition, it is employed in the dyeing
and scouring of cotton, wool, and silk. Ammonia serves as a catalyst in
the production of Bakelite and some other synthetic resins. More importantly,
it neutralizes acidic by-products of petroleum refining, and in the rubber
industry it prevents the coagulation of raw latex during transportation
from plantation to factory.

"Ammonia also finds application in both the ammonia-soda, or Solvay, process,
a widely used method for producing soda ash, and the Ostwald process, a
method for converting ammonia into nitric acid. Ammonia is used in various
metallurgical processes, including the nitriding of alloy sheets to harden
their surfaces. Because ammonia can be decomposed easily to yield hydrogen,
it is a convenient portable source of atomic hydrogen for welding. Finally,
among its minor uses is inclusion in certain household cleansing agents.


So, ammonia tank cars would make sense on a lot of different layouts in
different parts of the country, and not just at agricultural businesses.

Tim O.


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Denis F. Blake <dblake2996@...>
 

One thing about placards is that they have to be on all sides of the tank cars or any other car hauling dangerous or hazardous cargo...So, if you are going to apply placards on your tank cars you need to be sure that you have them on both sides and the ends as well.

Regards,

Denis F. Blake
NS Conductor
Columbus, OH
TTHOTS

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.


>Is there a manufacturer for the placard boards with dangersigns on it,
>for these cars?

Microscale makes a very nice and complete set of steam/early diesel era
placard decals. In HO scale it's set #87-975. I can guarantee its
authenticity as it was developed from my own data and photos.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Richard Hendrickson
 

Is there a manufacturer for the placard boards with dangersigns on it,
for these cars?
Microscale makes a very nice and complete set of steam/early diesel era
placard decals. In HO scale it's set #87-975. I can guarantee its
authenticity as it was developed from my own data and photos.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Ed Hawkins
 

On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Jeff Helm wrote:

I just received the Atlas tank decorated for Hooker Chemicals (SHPX
1282). The car has "ammonia" stenciled on the side. I had assumed,
evidently incorrectly, that Hooker transported chlorine in their
cars. I thought I had read that in the MM article on the
prototypes, and wanted a car for my paper mill.

I assume (there I go again) that Richard was refering to Arnold's
specific cars in stating they were for LPG only? Did Hooker have
dedicated cars of this type for ammonia and chlorine?

BTW, this is my first post, just joined the group and am already
learning a lot.
Jeff,
The series SHPX 1271-1295 (AC&F Lot 3690) leased to Hooker was used for transporting anhydrous ammonia. There were quite a few series of 11,000-gallon ICC-105A cars built under the same general arrangement drawings that applied to the transportation of either propane or anhydrous ammonia.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: K brake on a wood hopper (early 1900's)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Not able to say for sure about this particular car, but FWIW the typical
arrangements were a “split” system under the B end slope sheet. Split in
this case means that the cylinder and reservoir were mounted separately
rather than as a single unit as was typical for most (non-PRR) boxcars.

F&C commonly supply a Tichy combined brake and cylinder, despite the
fact that you can buy the split system from the same source. I wouldn’t
get too fussy about the piping or exact placement of the component since
its mighty dark under the slope sheet and very little can be seen when
the car is on its wheels.

What I would recommend is that you search out a copy of the instructions
for the F&C Southern Railway Seley hopper which includes a Mainline
Modeler drawing with a reasonable amount of brake gear detail. Without
any better information this would seem to provide a convincing
appearance of pipes and equipment under the slope sheet. This
arrangement has the actuator pointing toward the centre of the car; the
cylinder is mounted on or close to the longitudinal centre-line.

Aidrian

"And so while the great ones depart to their dinner,
The secretary stays, growing thinner and thinner
Racking his brain to record and report
What he thinks that they think that they ought to have thought."


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Re: Frt cars on the UP in the Wasatch

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jeff Aley writes:

" BTW, Larry's comments are identical to those made by Mssrs.
Eherenberger and Gschwind [Smoke Above the Plains], as well as by Mr.
Lloyd Stagner [UP Kansas Division Steam Finale]."

Jeff, do you have the pg numbers? I would like to see what they have to say. I remain curious about UP's different practices.

I would add this. In the Jan '61 Trains, there is an article on the Southern's infamous Rathole Div...between Danville, KY, and Oakdale, Tenn...an eight iron's distance plus about 30 miles from where I first played with trains. Anyhow, in the article it was mentioned that on a train heading over the crest of a grade...the head engines on the downgrade...the head engines had to reduce power because the "pull" on the front part of the train as opposed to the resistance on the part still on the upgrade increased at the point of the summit to the extent that coupler failure could occur. Having the power split on both front and rear so that, essentially, the forces on couplers would be less, seems advantageous. I see no evidence of a summit situation in which a severe upgrade transcends immediately to a severe downgrade on the Wahsatch route. It would also appear that it would be more difficult to get power off the head end than the rear...particularly with steel cabooses....the engine to the rear of any part of the train. Nevertheless, UP ran helpers on the rear in the Wahsatch and on the front on Sherman...Sherman's grade being slightly steeper. The only thing that stands out as different on the two lines is the complete absence of bridges on the Sherman route.The issue remains a puzzle.

Mike Brock


Re: tank capacity

Jeff Coleman
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
I'm a chemical engineer and a chemist by profession.

Filling a tank with liquid to meassure the actual capacity is an
iffy
proposition, particularly if it's a large tank. It takes a long
time
to fill and the accuracy of the metering device is questionable.
(Years ago I used something called a Neptune meter a couple of
times;
it looks like a mechanical gasoline pump.)Calibrating the metering
device is difficult.

But if you can weigh a tank full of water and empty it it's pretty
easy to calculate the volume of the tank. Water weighs 8.34 lb/gal.
An 8000 gallon tank car would hold about 66,720 lb. of water (33.36
tons).

The only problem might be that a steel tank could be prone to rust.

Getting rid of the water is easy. Pump it into the next car. If you
did that with a given volume you would have no idea how much is
lost
to eulage (the amount that doesn't want to come out of a container).

Ed Mines
Ed,

I'm a tank car inspector. I'm not sure how the car builders
calculate the capacity of the tanks. I do know that the capacity does
vary from car to car of cars of the same lot and builder. Also you
are correct that steel tanks will rust. But all tank cars up untill a
couple of years ago were filled with water and "TANK TESTED". The car
was filled with water and presserized to the tanks rated pressure.
This was done periodically, usually every ten years. The test date
and due date is stenciled under the car class, lefthand corner. To
keep the tanks from rusting many companies would purge the tank with
nitrogen.

Jeff Coleman


Re: Atlas 11,000 tank cars

Shawn Beckert
 

Ed Hawkins wrote:

The series SHPX 1271-1295 (AC&F Lot 3690) leased to
Hooker was used for transporting anhydrous ammonia.
There were quite a few series of 11,000-gallon ICC-105A
cars built under the same general arrangement drawings
that applied to the transportation of either propane or
anhydrous ammonia.
Jeff,

Adding to what Ed wrote, anhydrous ammonia is used as a
fertilizer, and is a byproduct of the petroleum refining
process. Thus your Hooker car would be prototypical spotted
at a refinery, a farmer's co-op, or even a team track for
local delivery.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
 

On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 03:30 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
Make that "Infammable" <G> for at least most of the era we discuss (and
yes, that means it burns)
The problem in that era, Bruce, is that "flammable" and
"inflammable" were synonyms. Both were used freely and interchangeably,
doubtless confusing to at least some who noticed it.
Indeed, much like "gauntlet" and "gantlet" <G>...

This raises the question of an "official" term. Since we were discussing placards, and the ones I have seen circa WWII are "Inflammable", was there a mix of usage for placarding over the years, or was there (as I suspect) a clearly defined time-frame when "Inflammable" was replaced by "Flammable" for official labeling of railroad cargo?

Happy Rails
Bruce


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Bridges (Was: Frt cars on the UP)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff Aley asked:
Could you please expound upon your statement? It is
counter-intuitive (to me) that a bridge is not designed to carry a
particular total mass as a static load.
Theodore Cooper, back in about 1890, worked out that axle loading, for close axle spacings on locomotives, was a sufficient measure of bridge loading. His approach and his ratings, still called "Cooper Loadings," are in use today. You will find bridges rated, for example, as E-60, etc. (the "E" refers to "Erie" ratings, for which railroad Cooper's system was first devised, and the "60" to 60,000 pounds axle loading).
When the locomotive first enters the bridge, two important things happen, both of which increase with increasing speed and which are NOT accounted for with axle loadings. There is a dynamic longitudinal force in the structure, and a concentrated load at the entry end, which can cause stress reversal in some structural members near that end. Both are of course recognized in bridge design, but speed limits, and for some older bridges, spacing of locomotives, is necessary to ensure safe loading. This is entirely dynamic, not static, and does NOT have anything to do with total static load on the bridge, as any textbook on structures will tell you.

BTW, Larry's comments are identical to those made by Mssrs.
Eherenberger and Gschwind [Smoke Above the Plains], as well as by Mr.
Lloyd Stagner [UP Kansas Division Steam Finale].
Sure. See above. Larry Kline and I wrote a "lay" account of all this in our article, "The Evolution of American Railroad Bridges, 1830-1994," in Volume 3 of the _Symposium on Railroad History_ which is still available from the NMRA's Kalmbach Library, AFAIK. It includes adequate citation of the civil and railroad engineering literature and to Paul Mallery's excellent book on this topic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Make that "Infammable" <G> for at least most of the era we discuss (and
yes, that means it burns)
The problem in that era, Bruce, is that "flammable" and "inflammable" were synonyms. Both were used freely and interchangeably, doubtless confusing to at least some who noticed it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

aaejj2j <tyrone.johnsen@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
gas. However, some tank car builders and owners stenciled their
cars with
the water capacity in pounds as an arbitrary measure of tank
capacity.
I've never understood why they did this, but I have numerous
examples in my
photo collection.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
The capacity in gallons is certainly a volume statement as would be
if stated in cubic feet. The capacity in water gallons could also
imply a weight statement as well as the volume statement. The 11,000
gallons of water would be approximately 91,586 lbs. If the car is
carrying fuel most of the fuels are of a lower weight per volume as
compared with the water and thus seems not a problem. However, there
are fluids such as oxidizers which are more dense. An extreme
example might be Bromine Pentafluoride which is more than twice as
heavy as water. That 11,000 gallons would exceed 200,000 lbs. So I
am wondering if that has any connection with why they might have
specified the capacity in gallons of some specific fluid such as
water (which is sort of a standard).


K brake on a wood hopper (early 1900's)

enobiko <deanpayne@...>
 

I am assembling the F&C kit 2081 "NYO&W 34' wood hopper". The
instructions say to "attach the K brake." Lotsa help that is!
Neither the "instructions" nor the two photos I have help, the brake
is hidden. I have surveyed all my styrene hoppers, all are AB
brakes, some have the cylinder pointing to the brake wheel/rod, or in
the center of the car (USRA). Now, even the Stewart is pretty basic
as far as detail goes. Does anyone know where the K brake would go?
Dean Payne


Re: Atlas 11K Tank Cars - Second Run

Arnold van Heyst
 

I will like to have a picture of the Atlas UTLX 96274,
Anyone know a retailer which is selling them?


--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:

On Friday, April 30, 2004, at 01:10 PM, James F. Brewer wrote:

I was in M. B. Klein today in Baltimore and noticed that the
second
run of these cars were on the shelves. Among the roadnames was
UTLX,
car nos. 96266 and 92269. Both cars have dome platforms.

In Richard Hendrickson's article, RMJ, July 2003, there is a
photo of
UTLX 96274; it does not have dome platforms.

My question is whether these new UTLX offerings from Atlas should
have
the dome platforms?

Many thanks.
Jim Brewer
Jim,
The UTLX 96266 represents a car from series 96263-96272, 10 cars
built
2-48 under AC&F lot no. 3169. Cars in this series had full dome
platforms. The UTLX 96274 was from series 96273-96274, 2 cars built
11-48 under AC&F lot no. 3384. These two cars had the simple side
platforms, as shown in the referenced photo. Once again, Atlas
proves
to modelers who care about accuracy that they aren't targeting
their
products to that group. Do these guys have a clue to what they are
doing?
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Frt cars on the UP in the Wasatch

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On May 4, 10:20am, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Frt cars on the UP in the Wasatch
If bridges were a problem they could double head with a couple of
freight cars between the engines. That is the way they double headed
the 9s on the UPRR Kansas division and the Maryville's cut off.
Bridges are designed and built by axle loading, not by total
locomotive weight. This has been true for more than 100 years. If one
locomotive is all right, so are two of them. But there can be dynamic
load problems with two high-effort machines entering the bridge at
once, likely the reason for the spacing.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
Tony,

Could you please expound upon your statement? It is
counter-intuitive (to me) that a bridge is not designed to carry a
particular total mass as a static load.

BTW, Larry's comments are identical to those made by Mssrs.
Eherenberger and Gschwind [Smoke Above the Plains], as well as by Mr.
Lloyd Stagner [UP Kansas Division Steam Finale].

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Jeff Helm <jeffh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote:
No, Arnold, those were high pressure cars used only for liquified
petroleum
gas.
I just received the Atlas tank decorated for Hooker Chemicals (SHPX
1282). The car has "ammonia" stenciled on the side. I had assumed,
evidently incorrectly, that Hooker transported chlorine in their
cars. I thought I had read that in the MM article on the
prototypes, and wanted a car for my paper mill.

I assume (there I go again) that Richard was refering to Arnold's
specific cars in stating they were for LPG only? Did Hooker have
dedicated cars of this type for ammonia and chlorine?

BTW, this is my first post, just joined the group and am already
learning a lot.

Thanks,
Jeff Helm


Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Arnold van Heyst
 

Is there a manufacturer for the placard boards with dangersigns on it,
for these cars?


--- In STMFC@..., "mrdata1968" <mrdata1968@y...> wrote:
Thank you very much for the pics. Mr. Ehni.



--- In STMFC@..., Brian Paul Ehni <behni@c...> wrote:
You English is way better than my Dutch!
The placards would have (at a minimum) flammable signs if hauling
LPG.
I¹ll post some pictures in the photos section.
--
Brian Ehni


From: "mrdata1968" <mrdata1968@y...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:15:39 -0000
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Do you people have some photographs of this type for me?
Side/front/top/frame/etc?

Also a question about the placard boards.
The boards of the proto 2000 models are printed,
the atlas not...!!
But the cars carried a hazardous substance.
Didn't they have some warning marks on it?
(I hope it's good englisch)

Arnold.
Netherlands.


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Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
 

On Wednesday, May 5, 2004, at 01:24 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

You English is way better than my Dutch!
The placards would have (at a minimum) flammable signs if hauling LPG.
I’ll post some pictures in the photos section.
Make that "Infammable" <G> for at least most of the era we discuss (and
yes, that means it burns)

If you look at the Steam Era Freight Cars site, there is a page of
placards at:
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/index.html

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Arnold van Heyst
 

Thank you very much for the pics. Mr. Ehni.



--- In STMFC@..., Brian Paul Ehni <behni@c...> wrote:
You English is way better than my Dutch!
The placards would have (at a minimum) flammable signs if hauling
LPG.
I¹ll post some pictures in the photos section.
--
Brian Ehni


From: "mrdata1968" <mrdata1968@y...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:15:39 -0000
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Do you people have some photographs of this type for me?
Side/front/top/frame/etc?

Also a question about the placard boards.
The boards of the proto 2000 models are printed,
the atlas not...!!
But the cars carried a hazardous substance.
Didn't they have some warning marks on it?
(I hope it's good englisch)

Arnold.
Netherlands.


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Re: Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

I¹ve posted three photos to the STMFPH · Steam Era Frt Car Group Photos
site.
--
Brian Ehni


From: "mrdata1968" <mrdata1968@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:15:39 -0000
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Atlas 11.000 tank cars.

Do you people have some photographs of this type for me?
Side/front/top/frame/etc?

Also a question about the placard boards.
The boards of the proto 2000 models are printed,
the atlas not...!!
But the cars carried a hazardous substance.
Didn't they have some warning marks on it?
(I hope it's good englisch)

Arnold.
Netherlands.


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