Date   

Re: the freight car colour subject

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Rob, I think it's hopeless "To Know the Correct Color (tm)" of anything.
But that said, I personally find it advantageous to have scanned and color
sampled various paints and photos. For instance, I learned that Modelflex
(MF) Light Tucsan -- a color I find acceptable as a base for creating PRR's
Freight Car Red, is very low on the cyan scale and high in magenta.
Floquil's (FQ) ATSF Brown is basically even on those two pigments. And of
course, darker. So if I wanted to approximate that FQ paint with MF I know
it will have to include some very small quantity of blue (e.g., MF GN Big
Sky Blue) added to whatever I use as a tone.

I can also take a color photo of mine of an old WP boxcar, sample the browns
(trying to pick one that covers a large area), and see the color is
virtually identical to Pantone 506CV. Now that can be communicated and
understood by all. It doesn't say I can mix that paint, or that if I do it
will look good on the car. But it does tell me there's more magenta in that
color than any of my out-of-the-bottle brown paints... and that MF Maroon
Tuscan might work as a base into which I add some Light Tuscan. Might work,
might not, but at least I get pointed in a direction. And somebody else can
understand what I'm trying to do and approximate it with some other mfgr's
paint that they prefer.

What I never understand in this on-going debate is why the side that say's
"You're a fool (tm)" to any question/statement about getting more precise
than "it was reddish brown" cannot grasp the logic needing to go a few steps
farther along in our understanding of pigments.

What's so wrong with that?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Kirkham [mailto:rdkirkham@shaw.ca]

Another way of puting the question is this: If I accept that the perception
of colour is variable, that colour is fluctuating in light and with weather
and weathering, with dust and grime and with the paint mix and changing
chemistry over the decades, etc, etc., is it reasonable to conclude that the
subject is a hopeless one, not worthy of any study?


Re: Kudzu rails

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

More importantly, we'll be launching
Southern war emergency cabooses but I have one question: what colors
(including hand rails) were they painted? - Al Westerfield <<

Al,

I take it these are the conversions of 36’ SU boxcars?

In this case you’re safe with a really bright “caboose” red car body,
black underframe/ trucks and yellow handrails and steps for the 1940s.
Since Southern went to yellow lettering on cabooses in the early 40s the
roadname, number and stencilling was probably yellow when they were
first converted, but white is probable in later years. Caboose roofs
seem to have been bright red or black depending on local whim and the
type of roof construction. In the absence of other documentation and the
re-use of the original metal roofs on these cabs, I’d go with red,
though the Washington Division seemed to like black.

A number of these cars served into the sixties, but I doubt that many
would have been repainted into the 1960’s brown scheme before
retirement.

Hope this helps

Aidrian.

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Re: Guess what?

Roger Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Clark Propst says ...

Ted used a picture of UP 18091
Guess what? The car is in the Landmesser list!

UP- 180931, 180000-182346, XM, 2/25/50 train#20
barley - set out

Thanks for that, Clark, but ... what is the Landmesser list ... where
is the Landmesser list ... how do I get to see the Landmesser list?
Thanks in advance for the answers.

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


Re: Meat Reefers

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Ed, Swift had Yellow Cars with Black lettering prior to the red and white cars so it may also be a SWIFT car.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
The fourth reefer in is an orange/red car with black lettering.
Anyone know what it is? The article says the photos were taken in
1950. There a red and white Swift reefer. most of the reefers are
wood.

ed Mines


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Re: Scale effect on Paint (was: Paint, not as simple as it looks)

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Mike Brock <brockm@brevard.net>:

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton says:

"I guess this means that we
should paint our stock in place on the layout for best effect�"

Aidrian does have a way of "cutting to the chase". If that's where the
stuff
will be viewed, that's where it should be painted...well, sort of. I
can
recall painting outside in bright sunlight about 20 yrs ago and, upon
bringing the car in to be viewed under warm white fluorescent bulbs, I
was
dismayed to see its appearance. I then formulated the paint mixtures
under the artificial light source.

Carrying this thought of Mike's one step further, has anyone had any
experience with how paint they have been happy with appears under lighting
from OTT, Tensor or any other supposedly true sunlight balanced bulbs?

Don Valentine













Re: Scale effect on Paint (was: Paint, not as simple as it looks)

Don Valentine
 

Scale, too, is a very valid point, Brian, due to the sheer mass of the
item viewed with the prototype when compared with the model. It can make
quite a visual difference in the way the same color paint looks, I agree.


Don Valentine


Quoting B Stokes <dayfornight@shaw.ca>:

I dont' know if this has been covered, and I don't really want to
extend
this thread but I thought this was of note:
I know in the world of miniatures (especially military models and
figures)
that correct colour matches are thought to be extremely important as
well.
But don't they also take into account the effect of a model's scale
(thus
size relative to the viewer)? Doesn't this mean that the "correct"
shade
for the prototype (if there is such a thing) will be different depending
on
what scale you model in as well? (Not to mention the lighting, etc...)

Brian S
www.members.shaw.ca/kootenayrr



Oh, Lord, here we go again. Another round on paint mixing when most
of
us
have long ago accepted the fact that with all the changes in the paint
and
chemical industries over the past fifty years we don't really stand
much
chance of perfectly matching any prototype paint color. If we did, so
what.
By the time we got a model painted with the "perfect match" paint onto
the
pike to operate it wouldn't match anyway because the lighting would
have a
different balance to it. And I sit here typing this in the heart of
SPF
country (obviously not at home!) hoping this thread dies a normal
death
before I get hit with a pail of someone's idea of a "perfect match"
for
Pond
Bottom Brindle....more commonly called Brunswick Green in this locale!
(-:

Don Valentine



Quoting Bruce Smith <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>:

I said:
Now, since they had the same amount of pigment, you might assume
that
they were identical colors, but it turns out that you would be
wrong...for carriers contribute to color, and these formulations
might
have slightly differing hues due to that.
Garrett responded:
Errrrrrrgghhh, I beg to differ from my own experience within the
paint
industry.
The goal with this and with color matching is to ensure that not
only dry, but dry the same color. They dry them on cards under
controlled
lighting for comparison. There should be no tint from your
solvents,

or
none that you notice between mixes. Compensation needs to be made
if

the
solvents do influence color once dry.
Did I say ANYTHING about color matching <G>? Nope, not a word, and
neither do the PRR specs. They took X lbs of color paste (spec #
so-and-so) and mix it with Y+Z gallons of solvents. These were
instructions to the troops, not something from "the paint
industry".
As was pointed out to us at our meeting, paint matching at the end
of
PRR was done by the shop foreman opening a 50 gallon drum of paint
and
slapping some on the shed wall (CONTROLLED LIGHTING???). He would
then

take a little bit of this and a dash of that and paint the
car/loco/etc...no second swatch there!

Counterpoint (and in defense of what you are saying) the
weathering
rates
from changing solvent amounts are different afterwards
<snip>
Shelf life (remember when I caught you guys coming out of the
elevator

down
in Cincy?) can be a factor with solvents and filler (cellulose)
as
they age.
Absolutely, and our conclusion was that you cannot use old liquid
paint

samples to get accurate colors by painting mixing them up (there
are
other ways...).

Finally, the PRRT&HS paint committee's charge is to help
manufacturers,
modelers, and restorers to (as accurately possible) match
specific
PRR
colors. At our first meeting, we decided that it was a daunting
task,
and that we would somehow succeed in at least defining baselines
to
work from...we'll see <G>
Just as long as you all know that you will need a different mix
for
each of
the above, and each scale. What looks good on a 1:1 restored N5c
will

be
wrong on an HO N5c, and what is good on the HO N5c will look wrong
on

the G
and N scale ones.
Indeed, and another issue is the weathering of restored
equipment...it
isn't any good if that museum car is pink in 5 years (unless we're
talking...)

Ah, but then there was the weathering mentioned above......so
throw
all of
that out and do your own mixing at the air gun with the naked
model on

the
bench.
Um, I think I said "defining baselines"... I think we realized
immediately that we'd be nuts to deal with weathered paint...but
what
you need to accurately weather is a starting point. The question,
for
historic railroad colors, is how you get there since many of the
assumed starting points are of dubious value...
1) Color photos - nearly useless
2) Drift cards - nearly useless (heck they are 50 YEARS
old...they've
oxidized)
3) Liquid paint samples - nearly useless (oxidized, broken down)
4) paint chips - nearly usesless (weathered, even if painted over)
5) memory - sheesh! I can't remember what my wife was wearing
this
morning...and you're going to TRUST me to tell you what 2004 CSX
blue
looked like, FIFTY years from now??? (not to mention, I'm not
usually
seeing the "baseline" but a weathered derivative.

Now before you conclude that all is hopeless, there is a glimmer of
light (although the oncoming headlight analogy may be very
appropriate). By focusing on the CHEMISTRY of these paints, the
ingredients that were used and the time frames when these changed,
we
may in fact generate good ranges of paint color that accurately
depict
appropriate archival paints...its going to take some work, and a
realization that there is no "perfect match" because there was no
unique one single color, but a range of colors very close to a
target...Which just reinforces what some folks have been saying for
years...your cars should not be all exactly the same color (but at
least they should be in the ball park, eh Bowser?)!!!

Time for a Beer!
Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" -
Benjamin
Franklin
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Re: color uniformity from paint manufacturers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tom Madden writes:
My two eyes see colors differently. My left eye sees things very
slightly redder than my right eye, or from the other point of view
(so to speak), my right eye sees things very slightly greener. An
interesting, self-administered test anyone can do.
Uh, oh. I never even thought of that. Now probably in contests the entries will say something like, "color matched to prototype drift card with right eye" . . .


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


the freight car colour subject

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Whenever paint comes up on this list, similar discussions follow. Over time
I have noted that some of the leading lights on this list have offered their
views on painting models - views that, frankly, I find a bit counter
intuitive given the propensity for research that pervades the rest of the
model freight car interest. I find myself caught by surprise each time
this discussion is repeated. But I've also come to respect those lights for
the insight they offer. So the question is, what is it that they do to pick
a colour. And "no", I will not accept that they just wing it. They must
start with some reservoir of knowledge that leads them.

Another way of puting the question is this: If I accept that the perception
of colour is variable, that colour is fluctuating in light and with weather
and weathering, with dust and grime and with the paint mix and changing
chemistry over the decades, etc, etc., is it reasonable to conclude that the
subject is a hopeless one, not worthy of any study?

And if you think some study can be useful, then what is it you would study?

Rob Kirkham


Re: color uniformity from paint manufacturers

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Peter J. McClosky wrote:
Lest we forget, the human eyeball does not work the same for
everyone.
There are a lest 8 different "vision systems" for humans (this is
from
an image scientest at NASA's Jet Propulision Laboratory).

These 8 different systems vary only slightly, but the do appear to
give
"differnt colors" to different people!

Think about it... do you see color the same way your wife does?
My two eyes see colors differently. My left eye sees things very
slightly redder than my right eye, or from the other point of view
(so to speak), my right eye sees things very slightly greener. An
interesting, self-administered test anyone can do.

Tom Madden


Kudzu rails

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

We will be at Kudzu rails next weekend. As usual, if you want us to bring
any specific older kits, let us know. More importantly, we'll be launching
Southern war emergency cabooses but I have one question: what colors
(including hand rails) were they painted? - Al Westerfield


Re: color uniformity from paint manufacturers

Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>
 

Lest we forget, the human eyeball does not work the same for everyone. There are a lest 8 different "vision systems" for humans (this is from an image scientest at NASA's Jet Propulision Laboratory).

These 8 different systems vary only slightly, but the do appear to give "differnt colors" to different people!

Think about it... do you see color the same way your wife does?

Peter

Freight cars colors are as you perceive them to be... If you think they look right, we might not agree, but likely we won't disagree ... publicly... Who does your hobby serve?

Greg Martin
--
--
Peter J. McClosky
Los Angeles, CA
http://home.earthlink.net/~pmcclosky
pmcclosky@earthlink.net


Re: Meat Reefers

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@U...> wrote:
For those who are interested in Armour and Swift reefers, check
out Page 35 of the latest Classic Trains, Summer 2004. The picture
is taken at Fonda NY by Edward Theisinger on October 15, 1950 in the
late afternoon with the cars on an eastbound NYC freight leaving
town.

Tom I too noticed that photo including a tinge of orange in an
Armour reefer; silly me, I thought they were always painted "Armour"
yellow. Comments please! And is Armour yellow UP yellow?

The fourth reefer in is an orange/red car with black lettering.
Anyone know what it is? The article says the photos were taken in
1950. There a red and white Swift reefer. most of the reefers are
wood.

ed Mines


Re: tank car book

Ed Hawkins
 

On Sunday, May 16, 2004, at 06:38 AM, Brian Chapman wrote:

I've casually been searching for owners of ACF's mid-1950s 19k gal.
tank car (48'-10" long body). CGW, MKT, UP (O-50-6, IIRC), GN and
others so far have been identified. Was Santa Fe a purchaser of these
tanks, too? (CGW owned ACF and GATC versions.) Thanks much,
Brain,
ACF built 19,000 gallon tank cars for the following from 1953 to 1957.
There may have been a few others but my tank car research ends at 1957.
If MKT had any I haven't come across them. Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

CP 389120-389184, lot 4103, 6-53
CGW 252-253, lot 4300, 4-54
UP 70000-70199, lot 4388, 1-55
GN X1375-X1399, lot 4627, 1-56
CGW 269-278, lot 4631, 1-56
NP 103000-10304, lot 5004, 6-57
GN X1400-X1424, lot 5005, 7-57
CGW 279-293, lot 5073, 8-57
GM&O 1800-1809, lot 5077, 8-57


Re: color uniformity from paint manufacturers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin, echoing many, said:
I don't believe "anyone" thinks that the basic freight car colors or any
color for that matter didn't vary from use to use or shop to shop, ect. Even the
same can likely did form use to use.
Freight cars colors are as you perceive them to be... If you think they look
right, we might not agree, but likely we won't disagree ... publicly... Who
does your hobby serve?
I don't really argue with this or with others who have chimed in, but let's not lose sight of the fact that box cars of UP and Santa Fe, to choose one example, were of quite visibly different colors. There are, of course other examples. Sure, the EXACT shade may be elusive, but as with box car height differences, those differences in color are part of realistically reproducing the national car fleet. And they ain't entirely arbitrary.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Silver or white lettering?

Paul Hillman
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, DRGW482@a... wrote:

Passenger car arena... I have plated passenger cars and "silver"
plastic cars. Neither
one looks right. So there is work to do. Another topic for another
list...

Martin
*********************************************************************
A good list for painting is the Yahoo Group, "Painting Model Trains
and Buildings". (If not already known by y'all.)

Paul Hillman


Re: Improved Dreadnaught Ends

Richard Hendrickson
 

I dunno... I kinda like the old "dartnot" since it conveyed something
about the design. How about "Garksnot" or "Urksnot" for this new end?
Oh, c'mon, Tim, don't be contrary. "Partnaught" conveys something about
the design as well - that it's part Dreadnaught and part not.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: tank car book

Richard Hendrickson
 

I've casually been searching for owners of ACF's mid-1950s 19k gal.
tank car (48'-10" long body). CGW, MKT, UP (O-50-6, IIRC), GN and
others so far have been identified. Was Santa Fe a purchaser of these
tanks, too? (CGW owned ACF and GATC versions.) Thanks much,

-Brian
No, Santa Fe had cars of similar construction but they were 16K gal. cars
from GATC, classes Tk-N and Tk-O.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Meat Reefers

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

For those who are interested in Armour and Swift reefers, check out Page
35 of the latest Classic Trains, Summer 2004. The picture is taken at
Fonda NY by Edward Theisinger on October 15, 1950 in the late afternoon
with the cars on an eastbound NYC freight leaving town.

It is interesting to see the difference between the underframes of the
first Armour cars and the Swift car and that of the second Armour car
ahead of the cabin, not to mention that it appears that they were built
in different time periods.

Does anyone wish to comment on the difference in these three cars. As
are many of us, I am still learning about the differences between the
car builders and their owners.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
PH: (302) 738-4292
Email: tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: Scale effect on Paint (was: Paint, not as simple as it looks)

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton says:

"I guess this means that we
should paint our stock in place on the layout for best effect�"

Aidrian does have a way of "cutting to the chase". If that's where the stuff
will be viewed, that's where it should be painted...well, sort of. I can
recall painting outside in bright sunlight about 20 yrs ago and, upon
bringing the car in to be viewed under warm white fluorescent bulbs, I was
dismayed to see its appearance. I then formulated the paint mixtures under
the artificial light source.

Mike Brock


Re: Scale effect on Paint (was: Paint, not as simple as it looks)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Take the color and go up a few values, and viola you
have a reasonable match in scale for your color.<<

Its not just a matter of going up a few notches on some supposed scheme
since the effect will be colour dependent reds shift to green and
blues tend to yellow as the colours become less saturated. Colour cannot
be reduce to a formula of moving three steps up a Munsell chart or what
have you since the colour itself affects how it changes. The noted
aviation historian Ian Huntley attempted to come up with a formula for
scale effect, but freely admitted that there were too many other
variables to make this a reliable system. Basically his system was to
decrease the intensity by adding white, which works for some colours but
makes reds, for example, look entirely wrong; red tends to be more
penetrating colours and theres less shift over distance than there is
at the other end of the spectrum (due to the different interactions of
their respective wavelengths with the intervening atmosphere).

The whole point is that you need to see the layout as a complete scene
so that the colours on the equipment, buildings and scenery all work
together to produce a convincing whole. I guess this means that we
should paint our stock in place on the layout for best effect

Aidrian



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