Date   

URTX 8034

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

A while back I asked for help with a series of URTX reefers leased to the SOO. I was looking at some slides last night and possibly have a slide of one I photographed at the Union IL museum. There is no lettering left on the side of the car, but I think the number on the car end is URTX 8034. I compared the car series dimensions to the M&StL 4800 leased series in the 60 ORER CD and they are not the same. Can some one confirm that this car URTX 8034 was leased to the SOO?
Thanks,
Clark Propst


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert wrote

Mill Gons over 60' long were a rare breed in the post-War years.
Do you have such numbers for 1960? I know that SP, AT&SF bought
more 65 foot gondolas in the postwar period. Even GN and NP got
into the act. As the "steam era" ended, larger cars become more
popular.

If you model a steel mill, or a steel consumer, then mill gons
of all sizes will be needed. "Rare" is a relative term.

Tim O.


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

In the April 1949 ORER, only 2.3% of the 305,501 Gons were more than 60'
long . There were only 7,115 owned by Class I RR's in the US at the
time. These 7,335 was 3.5% of the total 205,514 Solid Bottom Gons. 78.4%
of the gons longer 60' were owned by Eastern RR's; 10.9% by Southern
RR's; and 10.6% by Western RR's. The distribution of ownership was as
follows:

Owner Gons>60' % >60' Total Gons % of Total
US Class I RR's 7,115 100.0% 305,501 2.3%

Eastern RR's 5,581 78.6% 146,678 3.8%
PRR 2,348 33.0% 55,098 4.3%
B&O 749 10.5% 14,069 5.3%
P&LE 499 7.0% 10,546 4.7%
NYC 300 4.2% 20,160 1.5%
ERIE 297 4.2% 4,549 6.5%
LV 250 3.5% 1,688 14.8%
RDG 200 2.8% 7,040 2.8%
EJ&E 200 2.8% 5,501 3.6%
CNJ-CRP 200 2.8% 3,528 5.7%
W&LE 100 1.4% 3,845 2.6%
WAB 100 1.4% 2,048 4.9%
P&WV 98 1.4% 1,201 8.2%
NKP 75 1.1% 3,023 2.5%
Other East 263 3.7% 15,180 1.7%

Southern RR's 774 10.9% 64,454 1.2%
SOU 300 4.2% 9,803 3.1%
L&N 299 4.2% 13,890 2.2%
Other South 175 2.5% 40,761 0.4%

Western RR's 760 10.7% 94,369 0.8%
AT&SF 225 3.2% 11,419 2.0%
SP/T&NO 105 1.5% 10,676 1.0%
CRI&P 100 1.4% 9,357 1.6%
DRG&W 100 1.4% 5,448 1.8%
Other West 230 3.2% 57,469 0.4%

In the 1948 Proceedings of the RR Superintendents' Convention, there was
a lot of "screaming" about the western roads returning eastern gons
promptly although a bit less vociferous than the "screaming" of the
granger roads for boxcars. The UP used eastern gons to carry loads of
company coal and lumber eastbound over Sherman Hill. The UP needed
boxcars for grain loading further eastward, and grabbed every westbound
empty boxcar they could to supply that demand.

In that Fall 1947 UP Wheel Report, there were 114 solid bottom gons
reported, but only two of them were over 60': - one, PRR G-26 #439997
carrying machinery to somewhere on the SP; and the other, NYC #726035
carrying company coal eastbound.

In the Fall 1946 SOU Washington Division which I have transcribed, there
were 92 solid bottom gons reported of which three were over 60': - all
PRR G-26's carrying steel southbound.

Mill Gons over 60' long were a rare breed in the post-War years.

Tim Gilbert

raildata@aol.com wrote:

About three years back I drew a set of D&RGW 65' mill gon plans that were
published in RMC. These were made from drawings of the car that I
found in the
Colo RR Museum Library. The cars were built in 1965 by Bethlehem Steel at
Johnstown PA

There was also a file of extensive correspondence justifying purchase of
these new cars. Mian point was that they were losing business at
Pueblo to the C&S
and at Geneva UT to the UP because they could not furnish enough sutable
cars.

At the time I did a scan of an ORER from in the 60s and came up with the
following totals for 65 mill gons:

PRR 3795
RDG 1079 (surprise!)
B&O 742
NYC 695
LV 595
P&LE 499
ATSF 425
ERIE 395
EJ&E 300
SOU 299
L&N 299
WM 200
CB&Q 179
NKP 165
UP 149


After this the numbers fall pretty fast with a lot of lines have 50 or
so.
So the distribution was largely in the eastern "Smokestack America"
where most
of the heavy structural steel was made.

Underframe construction was usually pretty light so the 65' cars were not
good for heavy. concentrated loads like the short gons. Maybe this is
why so many
alsted and show up in company MW service!

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO



Re: Landmesser list

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Ed,

This is the reply I gave the first time the question was asked.

Bill Landmesser was the mechanical super for the M&StL. He kept diaries for
different reasons, one was on emerency setouts on the railroad, mostly hot
boxes for the years 48-50 and 58,59. Gene Green put the setout diary in a
computer format. If you have excel I can send the lists to you.

I have mention Bill and the lists in the past, but your memory most be like
mine.

Clark Propst


Accurate HO Scale RTR Flatcars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Don Valentine wrote:
"Thought the Life-like car had been forgotten about until Ben's
reminder, is it correct for any New England road?"

No. CN did have similar flats in the 661000-662199 series built
Canadian Car & Foundry in 1941. (Photo in 1943 and 1946 CBC). Life-
Like Canada did offer the P2K flat in a number of other Canadian
roads; none of these are correct. At least LL Canada put a label on
the kit box stating "Not an accurate model of a Canadian freight car"
or words to that effect.

"But Rutland????? Not in your life for a 50 ft. flat..."

I knew that - I got suckered by the question per my previously posted
correction. The two Athearn kit numbers that I quoted are for RTR
versions of their 40 ft flat.


Ben Hom


RTR cars

prr6380
 

I was amused by the recent Red Caboose coil cars. In the past we had
detailed instructions on how to put the car together. In this car
there are detailed instructions on how to get the assembled car out
of the box without without breaking it. Talk about the dumbing down
of America!

Walt Stafa
Columbus, Oh.


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

raildata@...
 

Hmmm...my penciled list say the SP had 50. Part of the trouble is I'm not
sure what year I checked. . Will have to dig further in my notes.

The 1957 ORER I have at hand says SP had 257.

So it looks like my SP number is a definite error.

Chuck Y


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Tim O'Connor
 

Well, gee whiz, Chuck, I just looked at my 1965 ORER and see
that the SP owned 418 65 foot mill gondolas back then. Should
I trust your other numbers? :o)

Regards, Tim O.

At the time I did a scan of an ORER from in the 60s and came up with the
following totals for 65 mill gons:

PRR 3795
RDG 1079 (surprise!)
B&O 742
NYC 695
LV 595
P&LE 499
ATSF 425
ERIE 395
EJ&E 300
SOU 299
L&N 299
WM 200
CB&Q 179
NKP 165
UP 149


Re: What is the size of a succesful run of resin carkits?

Richard Hendrickson
 

Gary Lasko asks:

How many kits have to be sold for a resin kit to be called successful? I
have not seen anything even hinting at the size of resin kit runs.
Some of Al Westerfield's more popular kits have sold in excess of 1,000,
but that's unusual. A few hundred is more typical.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


What is the size of a succesful run of resin carkits?

Gary Laakso <glaaks0@...>
 

How many kits have to be sold for a resin kit to be called successful? I have not seen anything even hinting at the size of resin kit runs.


Re: What is the size of a succesful run of resin carkits?

eabracher@...
 

In a message dated 5/21/04 7:47:23 PM, rhendrickson@opendoor.com writes:



Some of Al Westerfield's more popular kits have sold in excess of 1,000,
but that's unusual.  A few hundred is more typical.

I would guess the same for white metal or laser kits.

eric


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: F&C heritage kits I have

Jay Bingham <j.bingham@...>
 

Thomas Olsen wrote
Sunshine kits are discontinued for the following reasons: 1) The
supply
of parts from other manufacturers runs out (this includes decals)
and
the demand has dropped below the cost to continue buying the
additional
outside supplier parts.
If you check e-bay, I do not believe any Sunshine kit listed there
over the last six months has sold for less than $30. There seems to
be an incredible demand for the Sunshine kits of any type.

Jay Bingham
Pacific Palisades, CA


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

ljack70117@...
 

Carpenter steel Was also known for tool steel.
Thank you
Larry Jackman

On Friday, May 21, 2004, at 07:56 PM, Thomas Olsen wrote:

Ownership of several eastern road mill gons such as the PRR and/or RDG
would not be a problem. There are a number of steel mills in the
southeastern PA. area in the mid-1950s (i.e. Lukens, Coatesville, Pa.,
Alan Wood Steel, Conshohocken, Pa., Carpenter Steel, Reading, Pa.) that
made specialty steel plate for shipment all over the U.S.

Lukens was known for its special plate steel that was used in the
manufacture of naval submarines and surface vessels. Carpenter for high
strength steel products of all types. Alan Wood did a little of
everything from structural shapes to plate and coil steel rolls.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

ehiser wrote:

Shawn Beckert asked about steel moving from the east to the west.

It depends on era. In the early years (1800-1910 or so), steel likely did
move from east to west unless you were close to California, in which case
imports could come from the ports back to the east. No scrap shipments to
speak of at this time. Car loadings would have been coal, iron ore, flux
(lime, dolomite) with outbound in gondolas and boxcars. Alloys were likely
bagged and in boxcars.

Starting in the early 1900s, steel mills were built in a number of areas
around the country. There were several in California, Seattle, Pueblo,
etc., not to mention the huge concentrations around Chicago and Birmingham.
Loads would have then flowed in local regional areas except for specialty
steels not manufactured broadly. Limited scrap shipments at this time, at
least not at the level we think of currently. Car loadings much as before.

Starting in the 1940s during the war era, big integrated plants are built
throughout the country, with many in the interior to reduce the change of
enemy shelling. Kaiser in Fontana, CA; Geneva in Utah; new lease on life
for CF&I in Pueblo, expansion in the south as well. Scrap shipments become
more common for remelting. Loadings still much as before, except increased
bulk shipments of alloys as well as bagged shipments. Scrap is typically
shipped in gons.

Starting in the later 1960s-70s, electric arc furnace technology becomes
established and small "minimills" pop up all over the country, typically
with small capacities (several hundred thousand tons at most). They begin
to displace the bigger mills. Shipments would become somewhat more
localized; scrap shipments would become more common, but truck transport
also picks up because these mills do not require the degree of service the
integrated mills did. Car loadings are now primarily gondolas of scrap in
and gondolas of product out with some flat cars (or coil cars, depending on
mill type). Alloys and fluxes are typically delivered by truck or by
covered hopper. Covered hoppers of electric arc furnace flue dust go out.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful on the evolution of car types.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ




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Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Ownership of several eastern road mill gons such as the PRR and/or RDG
would not be a problem. There are a number of steel mills in the
southeastern PA. area in the mid-1950s (i.e. Lukens, Coatesville, Pa.,
Alan Wood Steel, Conshohocken, Pa., Carpenter Steel, Reading, Pa.) that
made specialty steel plate for shipment all over the U.S.

Lukens was known for its special plate steel that was used in the
manufacture of naval submarines and surface vessels. Carpenter for high
strength steel products of all types. Alan Wood did a little of
everything from structural shapes to plate and coil steel rolls.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

ehiser wrote:


Shawn Beckert asked about steel moving from the east to the west.

It depends on era. In the early years (1800-1910 or so), steel likely did
move from east to west unless you were close to California, in which case
imports could come from the ports back to the east. No scrap shipments to
speak of at this time. Car loadings would have been coal, iron ore, flux
(lime, dolomite) with outbound in gondolas and boxcars. Alloys were likely
bagged and in boxcars.

Starting in the early 1900s, steel mills were built in a number of areas
around the country. There were several in California, Seattle, Pueblo,
etc., not to mention the huge concentrations around Chicago and Birmingham.
Loads would have then flowed in local regional areas except for specialty
steels not manufactured broadly. Limited scrap shipments at this time, at
least not at the level we think of currently. Car loadings much as before.

Starting in the 1940s during the war era, big integrated plants are built
throughout the country, with many in the interior to reduce the change of
enemy shelling. Kaiser in Fontana, CA; Geneva in Utah; new lease on life
for CF&I in Pueblo, expansion in the south as well. Scrap shipments become
more common for remelting. Loadings still much as before, except increased
bulk shipments of alloys as well as bagged shipments. Scrap is typically
shipped in gons.

Starting in the later 1960s-70s, electric arc furnace technology becomes
established and small "minimills" pop up all over the country, typically
with small capacities (several hundred thousand tons at most). They begin
to displace the bigger mills. Shipments would become somewhat more
localized; scrap shipments would become more common, but truck transport
also picks up because these mills do not require the degree of service the
integrated mills did. Car loadings are now primarily gondolas of scrap in
and gondolas of product out with some flat cars (or coil cars, depending on
mill type). Alloys and fluxes are typically delivered by truck or by
covered hopper. Covered hoppers of electric arc furnace flue dust go out.

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful on the evolution of car types.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ





Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: F&C heritage kits I have

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Sunshine kits are discontinued for the following reasons: 1) The supply
of parts from other manufacturers runs out (this includes decals) and
the demand has dropped below the cost to continue buying the additional
outside supplier parts.

There is no sense to continue with cars such as the PRR X29, Greenville
gondola kits, etc., when the market has shifted to lower costing models
in plastic. This has also happened to Al Westerfield in regard to his
H21 and GLc Hoppers. Bowser has produced these cars and even though
they are inferior to the Westerfield kits, they are so cheap that no one
wants to spend the money to continue buying the Westerfield cars.

You can't blame the urethane guys when they can't compete with the
plastic manufacturers are now bringing out the same cars already
assembled and ready to go at only pennies more than the cost of the
urethane kit.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu
Tom Olsen

2) When his kits are duplicated by a mass produced kit by one of the
kit manufacturers.

ed_mines wrote:

I've heard that Sunshine kits die when the "rubber" (rubber mold)
dies. Can't a new mold be made from the masters? Is it too
expensive? Has anyone ever got a resin kit from a mold that was worn
out?
Ed Mines


Re: Mill Gondolas In Interchange

Gary Laakso <glaaks0@...>
 

As to rail, the steel industry "created" its own little monopolies so that rail was never a competitvely bid product. SP had one supplier and that was CF&I and NO ONE else wanted SP's business. Thus, the movement of rail is local to the nearest steel rail producer. The federal government noted the odd condition of the railmarket when it funded the new plant in the 70s in Wheeling. Until that plant was operational, rail was cheaper from Japan and Germany then Bethlehem, PA for SP.


Re: FS: Moody's Industrials 1958

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On May 20, 2:18pm, Garth Groff wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] FS: Moody's Industrials 1958
Dave and Tim:

Poor's and Moody's manuals can be found in many large libraries,
especially university libraries that support business schools. You can
probably obtain copies through your local public library on interlibrary
loan, or perhaps just a photocopy of the railroad listing you want if
you are specific.

Garth,

In this case, Dave is referring to Moody's INDUSTRIALS. These are
useful for researching the on-line shippers for you railroad (and
determining what kinds of STMFC's need to be loaded / unloaded).

For example, after looking at the listing for the National Biscuit
Company (NABISCO), I learned that their Kansas City facility included a
factory to make cereal boxes, and that those empty boxes were shipped to
various other facilities across the country. I find this kind of info
both fascinating and useful.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Atlas Tank Car Messages Help

"\"José Cabanillas\" <cabanillas@...>
 

On Friday, May 21, 2004, at 12:25PM, pullmanboss <tgmadden@worldnet.att.net> wrote:


Cole's Law - Chopped cabbage and sour cream make a nice salad.
Groan!


josé
--
"Though I don't think" added Deep Thought "that you're going to like it."


Dean, I lost your message

Scott Pitzer
 

(Sorry for the bandwidth)

I read the message but accidentally deleted it (and your email address.)

Scott Pitzer


Re: PICCO

Gatwood, Elden -- Tt, Inc. <elden.gatwood@...>
 

Ed;
You are right, they were probably made from coal tar in the distant past,
and later from petroleum. I read that in their book, "Resins in Rubber".

The resins that they and Hercules made/make were not only used in the rubber
industry, but I was told in floor tile and hundreds of other things.

While much of this would have been shipped in good old 103 cars, I have also
seen resins being shipped in nickel-plated tanks. I do not know enough of
the detail to know why. Many resins left tan/brown stains down the side of
the dome, when they were sloppy.

I also suspect that PICCO was located across the RR from USS Clairton
because of their proximity to the by-products plant. The coal tar could
have been sent across to PICCO in a pipeline rather than trucked or tank
car, but this pipeline (if it was ever there) was certainly gone by my time.

Thanks for all that information!

And have a good weekend.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines [mailto:ed_mines@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 1:02 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] PICCO

I remembered that Piccolite resins are clear so they're probably not
derived from pine stumps.

I called the distributor. The PICCO resins they sell now are
polystyrene. The distrubutor thought that they might have made PICCO
resins from coal tar in the distant past.

Polystyrene was around in 1960 and maybe 1950 but I don't think it
was around as a commercial material before WWII.

So PICCO resins may have been made from coal tar, not pine stumps,
in the distant past.

He told me they're still using the original PICCO factory in Ohio.
Anyway tank cars of coal tar might have been delivered to PICCO.

Ed Mines






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