Date   

Re: B&O wagontop models

Tony Higgins
 

Tom Madden wrote:
Martin was working within the limits of his
technology, which was (and still is) limited to flat casting. He's
gotten
more out of it than I would have thought possible (witness his
gondola
shells), but he's still restricted to parts that can be cast in
open-faced
molds, then covered with a cap sheet.
First, THANKS to everyone who answered my original inquiry...I think
I'll go with the WSL model. If nothing else, I'll get it sooner!

As for limitations of flat casting, maybe there's a better way to
skin this cat. Here's my idea: Cast each former as a bulkhead so
that the top and side edges are the visible ribs. The former/rib
could be cast vertically, upside down so the poured surface is the
bottom (like Sunshine does with a two-sided gondola end). Include a
shoulder on both sides of each former to support a thin (say,.005"
thick) styrene sheet between it and the next former. The assembler
would glue the formers to the floor at the correct 9 locations, then
cut and glue styrene sheets between the formers, gluing to the
surfaces provided by the integral shoulders. The end pieces would
also require a shoulder.
For Sunshine, it would take less molding time and eliminate trying
to bend the side/roof casting to a repeatable shape. It seems like
assembly would be easier too?

Regards to all,
Tony Higgins


Re: B&O wagontop models

Andy Carlson
 

Don,
Martin has made 100's of cars, and you seem to dump on
him over one. Even most of the responders indicate it
makes a fine car, just more troubling to build. I
think we ought to be focusing more on the bigger
dissapointments out there, and I won't mention any
(Colorado)names.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- newrail@... wrote:


You have have simply confirmed my point. My
issue with Martin has
never been with his products, especially since he
gave up on Steve Funaro
and began molding his own kits. But you have noted
that Martin "made the
conscious decision to stay with flat casting" for an
item which quite
obviously cannot be done correctly that way on a
consistent basis. Thus
it would seem that rather than diminish his
reputation for qaulity Martin
might have chosen not to offer such a troublesome
kit to begin with. What
has occured is that a substandard model is now
available from Sunshine
that will in all likelihood restrain others who
might do it correctly in
the same medium, such as Al Westerfield whom you
seem to acknowledge
could do it, from doing so. Let's hope Branchline
does this prototype
and then we won't have to worry about it.

Don Valentine


Re: B&O wagontop models

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Don, the Sunshine M-53 wagon top was a successful kit, if you count
success in sales. In fact, Martin followed it up with the rebuilt
cars. If you don't like them, you can buy the West Shore 1-piece car
or wait for Branchline. Many of Martin's kits are quite difficult,
as are more than a few of Al Westerfield's kits. No one has said
building resin kits was a snap! But in the hands of a good modeler
the results speak for themselves. And you can always sell the kit on
Ebay to willing buyers. We can always second-guess vendors and gripe
about the models, but as Tom pointed out, Martin has been extremely
successful. Al, Steve and Martin have really made this hobby a lot
more enjoyable than it used to be for people who like building models
but don't have the ability (desire,time) to create them from scratch.
Very well said, Tim. A number of Martin's, Steve's and Al's kits have been a handful to build over the years, but that is most emphatically NOT a reason to criticize them as "foolish." Taking the stand of "I'll wait for styrene" sounds pretty foolish, too, IMO, particularly when that writer's own loudly announced project in the same medium has been rather invisible for six or eight months. Heck, Mr. V, why not announce the B&O wagontop in your own line?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: B&O wagontop models

Tim O'Connor
 

You have have simply confirmed my point. My issue with Martin has
never been with his products, especially since he gave up on Steve Funaro
and began molding his own kits. But you have noted that Martin "made the
conscious decision to stay with flat casting" for an item which quite
obviously cannot be done correctly that way on a consistent basis. Thus
it would seem that rather than diminish his reputation for qaulity Martin
might have chosen not to offer such a troublesome kit to begin with. What
has occured is that a substandard model is now available from Sunshine
that will in all likelihood restrain others who might do it correctly in
the same medium, such as Al Westerfield whom you seem to acknowledge
could do it, from doing so. Let's hope Branchline does this prototype
and then we won't have to worry about it.

Don Valentine

Don, the Sunshine M-53 wagon top was a successful kit, if you count
success in sales. In fact, Martin followed it up with the rebuilt
cars. If you don't like them, you can buy the West Shore 1-piece car
or wait for Branchline. Many of Martin's kits are quite difficult,
as are more than a few of Al Westerfield's kits. No one has said
building resin kits was a snap! But in the hands of a good modeler
the results speak for themselves. And you can always sell the kit on
Ebay to willing buyers. We can always second-guess vendors and gripe
about the models, but as Tom pointed out, Martin has been extremely
successful. Al, Steve and Martin have really made this hobby a lot
more enjoyable than it used to be for people who like building models
but don't have the ability (desire,time) to create them from scratch.

Tim O.


Re: B&O wagontop models

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Gail Madden <tgmadden@...>:

Ted Culotta:

The side/roof castings are actually two pieces that are curved.
Each constitutes one side and half of the roof.
Me:

Martin casts the wagontop side/half-roof as one flat piece, removes
it from the mold before it is completely cured, and bends it around
a shaped mandrel. This is not a technique which will produce a
succession of exactly-matched parts.
Don Valentine:

Would it not make FAR more sense to use one such piece that he
was
particularly pleased with as the master for all of them? Like others
on
this list I have had some issues with Martin over the years but never
thought he was this foolish.
That's a pretty harsh judgment. Martin was working within the limits of
his
technology, which was (and still is) limited to flat casting. He's
gotten
more out of it than I would have thought possible (witness his gondola
shells), but he's still restricted to parts that can be cast in
open-faced
molds, then covered with a cap sheet. Yes, the wagontop boxcar would
have
been a drop-dead simple one-piece body for him to cast, but he chose not
to
go that route. He and Al got the same closed-mold casting tutorial
within a
few months of each other back in 19<mumble>. Al made the leap and had
his
one-piece MILW gon kit on the market within two months, but Martin made
the
conscious decision to stay with flat casting. Short-sighted? Perhaps.
But
foolish? No - especially when you consider he can't keep up with the
demand
for his current offerings.

You have have simply confirmed my point. My issue with Martin has
never been with his products, especially since he gave up on Steve Funaro
and began molding his own kits. But you have noted that Martin "made the
conscious decision to stay with flat casting" for an item which quite
obviously cannot be done correctly that way on a consistent basis. Thus
it would seem that rather than diminish his reputation for qaulity Martin
might have chosen not to offer such a troublesome kit to begin with. What
has occured is that a substandard model is now available from Sunshine
that will in all likelihood restrain others who might do it correctly in
the same medium, such as Al Westerfield whom you seem to acknowledge
could do it, from doing so. Let's hope Branchline does this prototype
and then we won't have to worry about it.

Don Valentine


Re: Digest Number 1870

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>:

In regard to Mal's reference to Scalecoat painted engines from 30 years
ago: the toughness of the finish is because the Scalecoat used 30 years
ago had a lead base which has long since removed from the paint
formula. I have engines that were painted back in the middle 60's and
70's with the lead-based Scalecoat and the stuff is almost
bullet-proof. This seems to be true for all the paints manufactured
today.

The first thing that I do before putting on the finish coat is to prime
the piece with Floquil zinc chromate. After the prime coat is dry,
then
I finish the job with Scalecoat. I have always used Scalecoat-I on
everything, be it brass, plastic or urethane and have never had it
damage the plastic or urethane surface. The secret is to spray it wet,
but not so heavy that it runs. In mixing for spraying, I use a 50-50
mix of paint and thinner. The nice thing about Scalecoat (whichever the
version) is that it is the most forgiving paint that I have ever used.
snip

So, it is just a matter of watching what you are doing and taking care
to properly thin the paint and watch how heavy your paint stream is
coming out of the brush. Actually, if you can raise the air pressure
up
to about 50 psi, you will still cover what you are painting adequately,
but will actually use less paint. And if you are baking a brass piece,
make sure you have the right temperature, as Mal has said (150-170
degrees) and you will be okay.

As I have noted several times before on this list, I have used
Scalecoat in much the same way Mal & Tom have described since 1968.
The one thing Tom has described that I do NOT do is use Floquil zinc
chromate primer for ANYTHING! My complete dissatisfaction with that
wholly unnecessary material is what prompted my discovery of Scalecoat
as a far better method back in 1968 to begin with. Fellow listee Andy
Miller had instructed me on how to paint brass models the "Floquil way".
A new Gem CPR class D-4g 4-6-0 was prepared, primed with the detail hiding
Floquil zinc chromate primer and then painted, also with Floquil. While
Andy and others said the resiults were fine, I was far from satisfied. The
floquil paint of the day had enough of a tendency to hide detail on its own.
I suspect much of this was due to a pigment not ground fine enough but other
may have other ideas about that. But if coarse pigment in the paint itself
were not bad enough the zinc chromate primer was the kiss of death. I still
have the CPR D-4g as well as another painted the "right way", with Scalecoat.
The two are used to show why I have never used Floquil for anything but
weathering since. Weathering can be done with a number of colors and the
fact that the pigment may be more coarse doesn't matter unless one goes
overboard as another way to hide detail is with over-weathering.

This said, I will admit to having avoided Floquil products for years,
accept as noted. Thus their zinc chromate primer may have "improved" in
the interim. But the question must be raised as to why anyone would use
a product such as the zinc chromate primer with another product like
Scalecoat that was specifically designed to be used WITHOUT the awful
primer? I would also suggest keeping oven temperature used to bake
Scalecoat to a MAXIMUM of 150 degrees and, again, with three hours
minimum for the first coat and one hour for each additional coat. That
is all that is needed so why risk more? And if it makes you feel any
better, Tom, I, too, have created a brass "kit" from overheating an oven.
This was with a Trains, Inc. brass GN express reefer back in 1972. The
oven was a gas one with a questionable temperature control. That problem
was cured by never using anything but an electric oven since!

Enough said, Don Valentine


Re: AAR Library

Gene Green <lgreen@...>
 

Some material from the AAR library went to Pueblo, Colorado. A few
years ago I was in contact with an employee there (about another
matter) and he made mention of the recent acquisition of AAR library
material. I am sorry that I remember neither the persons name nor
the nature of the material received.
I feel foolish passing along such useless information but perhaps
there is someone on this list with access to the Pueblo facility who
could learn more.
Gene Green


"Gould Standard" caboose

Bob Webber <rswebber@...>
 

Now that we've settled on a D&RGW 72000 GS gon as a target (thanks to all who replied and provided encouragement), I am now looking at 1100 D&RGW cabooses. Now, no plan as such exists (to my knowledge), though there is the 1985 drawing in Mainline Modeler. It is, however, a fairly close cousin to the other so-called "Gould Standard" cabooses of the era on the Wabash, MoPac and WP. Does anyone know if plans exist for those cars? I know there is also a drawing in a Cyclopedia reprint from Gregg, though mine are, at the moment, packed away. Any other suggestions?


Re: Revell PFE plug door reefer

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Has anyone ever seen this model up close enough to say
if some part of it represents a PFE R-40-26? For example
if the sides are good, I could toss the roof, ends and
floor and use Intermountain or other replacement parts.
Uh, don't go there, Tim.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: B&O wagontop models

Gail Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Ted Culotta:

The side/roof castings are actually two pieces that are curved.
Each constitutes one side and half of the roof.
Me:

Martin casts the wagontop side/half-roof as one flat piece, removes
it from the mold before it is completely cured, and bends it around
a shaped mandrel. This is not a technique which will produce a
succession of exactly-matched parts.
Don Valentine:

Would it not make FAR more sense to use one such piece that he was
particularly pleased with as the master for all of them? Like others on
this list I have had some issues with Martin over the years but never
thought he was this foolish.
That's a pretty harsh judgment. Martin was working within the limits of his
technology, which was (and still is) limited to flat casting. He's gotten
more out of it than I would have thought possible (witness his gondola
shells), but he's still restricted to parts that can be cast in open-faced
molds, then covered with a cap sheet. Yes, the wagontop boxcar would have
been a drop-dead simple one-piece body for him to cast, but he chose not to
go that route. He and Al got the same closed-mold casting tutorial within a
few months of each other back in 19<mumble>. Al made the leap and had his
one-piece MILW gon kit on the market within two months, but Martin made the
conscious decision to stay with flat casting. Short-sighted? Perhaps. But
foolish? No - especially when you consider he can't keep up with the demand
for his current offerings.

Tom Madden


Re: CV Post War color scan 40' SS Autobox

Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Anyone want a Central Valley Hi Res color scan of the
CV 4133 Auto Boxcar W/ end loading door, built 3-29,
and last reweighed on 3(?)-46? First 6 responders,
-Andy Carlson < midcentury@... >
Ojai CA
????????

Central Valley?

Do you mean Central Vermont?

Dick


Re: Digest Number 1874

Malcolm H. Houck
 

In a message dated 6/1/2004 12:26:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
And if you are baking a brass piece,
make sure you have the right temperature, as Mal has said (150-170
degrees) and you will be okay.
Careful also in setting up to bake a brass model. Oven thermostats are quite
unreliable, and if the model is placed in a cold [electric] oven and then the
oven turned on, disaster is certain. The temperature will "spike" as the
heating coils warm to a heat that's high enough to unsolder, oh, an old Lambert
Tank car, for example. Make sure the heat is as estimated, and at a working
temperature before placing the model to bake.

I personally use an old [read "ancient"] physician's "Dry-Clave" sterilizer
that my dad gave me when he retired and broke down his office. The temperature
is indicated on a "repeater" on the top face of the oven, and everything is a
nice stainless, inside, racks and trays. I don't know if these things are even
made anymore, but the simple point is that there may be commercial/industrial
low heat ovens that are acceptable for model baking.

Yes, indeed the old paints had lead content in the pigments. I haven't looked
lately to see what the newer paints contain, but Scalecoat is, I agree, a
most forgiving paint. I regularly use Scalecoat II on brass, and then bake. I've
found that the Scalecoat II paints are [as nearly] as bulletproof as any
others.

I've mentioned grit blasting with Aluminum Oxide to preparer brass, but I
recently learned that commercial auto paint strippers use baking soda to "blast"
clean old Corvettes for restoration. Evidently the grains of baking soda
"explode" on impact and that is the mechanical means for paint removal and surface
preparation. I assume that this means there in no reuse of the soda medium,
but for those using blast cabinets [as do I] the soda medium may be worthwhile
experimenting with for preparation of plastic models. I would hesitate to try
any method as violent as blasting on resin models, however.

Mal Houck

Mal Houck


Re: Red Ball wagon top kit

rfkennedy.dsm@...
 

Hi Group,

If I remember right, the Cannonball M-53 Wagontop Boxcar had a problem with size.

When I built one (years ago) I noticed that it was considerably wider than the brass wagontop car that I also owned. I am doing this from memory, but it seems like the Cannonball car was something like three feet wider. Since the car sides/roof were split, I was able to take a section out under the roofwalk, narrow down the ends and floor and get a fair car out of it.

Bob Kennedy


Revell PFE plug door reefer

Tim O'Connor
 

Has anyone ever seen this model up close enough to say
if some part of it represents a PFE R-40-26? For example
if the sides are good, I could toss the roof, ends and
floor and use Intermountain or other replacement parts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5901611167

Tim O.


Re: Sylvan Gondola Ends

Ian Cranstone
 

On 1-Jun-04, at 3:21 PM, Garth Groff wrote:

I'm not familiar with the CC&F cars you mention, but I gather from your
comments that they were considerably different from the AAR long
gondolas. Right? This would make the Sylvan end no better than retaining
the ECW PRR castings.
In this case I think CC&F just copied an American design, given that this was the first order ever for 65' cars in Canada (200 cars for CN in 1958, and two smaller groups of 50 cars for CP in 1957 & 1958). Existing Canadian-style gondola ends probably weren't sized for the narrower longer car, and for only 300 cars over two years CC&F may well have opted to buy parts off the shelf. I don't have data on the AAR cars handy, so can't compare them very well.

I wish I could offer more conclusive info -- perhaps you could try emailing Sylvan and see if a photo is available?

Ian & Katherina Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: Fixing the Atlas reefer

Don Valentine
 

Quoting Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor>:


Could these be used to repair the Atlas 2-hinge reefer
and change it to a more modern 3-hinge style?

http://www.tichytraingroup.com/index.php?page=view_product.php&id=390&category=F
reight+Car+Parts


You might like to look at the Grandt Line version first.

Don Valentine


Re: SAL single sheathed box car with end doors

golden1014
 

Ed,

The SAL box car in question was originally a B4 composite car. The
first lot of 500 cars (13001-13500) were delivered by Baltimore Car &
Foundry in April, 1929. A second lot of cars (13501-13965) were
delivered in August.

The "little door" on the A end is a lumber door. Only the B4 cars
came equipped with them.

Would appreciate a scan of the photo if you have the time and
inclination.

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
I recently went through about a foot and a half of 5X7 photos,
looking for a print for a friend.

I came across a photo of a SAL single sheathed box car in MOW
service with a what appears to be a little door over the place
where
the tack board used to be. It looks like there's a little sheet
metal lip to let the doof swing down. The door is slightly wider
than the tack board but not as high. The photos whow the underframe
to advantage too.

The photo is neg. #352 from John LaRue. Since it's taken in 1961
and
is a low number I'd bet John took it himself. Nice quality photo,
better than 80% of the non builders photos I have.

Ed Mines


Re: B&O wagontop models

Don Valentine
 

Quoting pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>:

Don Valentine:

���� When reporting on the scale issue between the two kits
could
you also comment on why the Sunshine version seemed so
difficult?

Ted Culotta:

The side/roof castings are actually two pieces that are curved.
Each
constitutes one side and half of the roof.
Martin casts the wagontop side/half-roof as one flat piece, removes
it from the mold before it is completely cured, and bends it around
a shaped mandrel. This is not a technique which will produce a
succession of exactly-matched parts.

Tom Madden

Would it not make FAR more sense to use one such piece that he was
particularly pleased with as the master for all of them? Like others on
this list I have had some issues with Martin over the years but never
thought he was this foolish.

I appreciate the responses to my query on these cars and have
concluded that both the F & C and Sunshine version of the B & O cars are
great kits to avoid. Thanks to all who responded.

Don Valentine


Re: Sylvan Gondola Ends

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ian,

I'm not familiar with the CC&F cars you mention, but I gather from your
comments that they were considerably different from the AAR long
gondolas. Right? This would make the Sylvan end no better than retaining
the ECW PRR castings.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Ian Cranstone wrote:

On 1-Jun-04, at 12:04 PM, Garth Groff wrote:



Dear friends,

The Sylvan web sites lists the following part: Mill Gondola Ends
DP-0059: $3.95 CDN, $3.25 US. HO-Scale

The listing is found at: http://www.isp.ca/Sylvan/detail.htm

Has anyone here ever used these parts? I am wondering if they might be
useful for replacing the PRR style ends that come with Eastern Car
Works' 65' AAR mill gondola.


I haven't used them, but I believe these are probably a re-release of
the old Dan Kirlin parts (originally released under the Canadian Model
Railway Parts Guild name?). Some years ago, Clare Gilbert (Sylvan)
purchased the patterns and rights from Dan Kirlin for his various
ends/roofs/doors etc., intended to convert U.S. prototype cars to those
built by various Canadian builders which had their own unique ideas in
terms of these parts.

If so, these gondola ends were intended to replace the PRR ends that
you mention on the ECW gon to make it a better replica of cars built by
Canadian Car & Foundry in 1958 for CNR.

Ian & Katherina Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: Sylvan Gondola Ends

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Andy,

Good idea, except that the ECW 65' gon is MUCH narrower than the P2K 52' car. And we're not just talking about the drop doors here, but also the end posts and sill.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Andy Miller wrote:

Detail Associates also makes a styrene gon end which I have used to upgrade
a lot of my stand in gondolas to get interior corrugations. And don't
forget that the P2K gon kits come with two sets of ends, leaving you with a
spare set. The RTR crowd is out of luck, but they probably don't care.

Regards,

Andy Miller