Date   

Resin reality check

Tom or Gail Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Some general comments, before we get all helium-inflated over resin kit
possibilities.

Color: Cured alumilite is tan, but all the other styrene-like urethane
resins used in the hobby are opaque white when cured. If you want something
other than that, you add colorant. Most of us find light gray castings are
much easier to work with than stark white - easier to see and trim flash,
easier to place small drill bit tips in pilot dimples, easier to paint. Of
all the things a caster can do to make life easier for the modeler, adding
1% color to the mix is the simplest. But it doesn't come free, and it does
add another processing step.

Warped castings are unavoidable: Not true, as Tim cites with Jon Cagle's
(Southern Car & Foundry) Harriman head end cars. Tim is wrong about Jon's
line of work - he's not a resin caster, but a professional builder of
exceptional architectural and development display models. He's also an
excellent On3 modeler, but it took him most of a year to wrestle resin
casting into submission. Many phone calls, many failures, a lot of
discouragement, but he had high standards and knew what he wanted to
accomplish. His cast car bodies are gorgeous.

Pre-painted, pad printed castings: Yep, certainly possible but may require
more discipline on the part of the casters. I have a number of F&C one-piece
bodies with blobs of excess resin on the interiors. This happens when chunks
of rubber are torn from the mold surface - each succeeding pour will show
where that happened. No big deal on the inside of a house car that I'm going
to paint & letter myself, but pad printing requires that the internal
surfaces and dimensions be pretty close to identical from casting to
casting. Also, how many castings are used setting up the pad printer? I
don't know the answer, but suspect it's more than a few. If I have to
provide an extra ten castings to get 50 good ones, I'm not going to be a
happy camper. An HO car body in styrene might cost only a few pennies, but
in resin it's over a buck out of pocket, plus your labor.

Resin casting requires little capital: Yes and no. Yes, you can order a
casting kit from Micro-Mark and crank out car ends, doors, etc. without much
of an investment. Make a few extras to share with friends, hey, that's what
the hobby is about. But that's the hobby approach. If you want to offer
castings for sale, you need to take a business approach. Vacuum pump and
chamber for de-airing mixed resin, precision electronic scale for accurately
measuring out your resins, an air compressor and pressure tanks so you can
use better resins which must be cured under pressure, assorted plastic
stirrers and containers (no wood or paper products should contact uncured
urethanes), perhaps a small convection oven for post-curing your castings,
...and so on. Then you'll want to save money by buying your consumables in
bulk, but that still means $400 for 5 gallons of a good silicone rubber, and
over $500 for four one gallon kits (1 gal part A, 1 gal part B per kit) of a
high-quality room temperature cure urethane resin. There are cheaper rubbers
and resins, but you get what you pay for.

Two more from Richard:
]Resin casting] "is very labor intensive and does not lend itself to large
scale production." and, if painted pad printed castings were introduced,
"....sales will spike to the point where the people doing the molding will
wish they'd never tried it." Amen to both of those, and Richard certainly
knows whereof he speaks, from his WestRail days. The count on the Sunshine
X-3 tank shell sets is over 1000 now after the most recent shipment, and the
charm has worn thin for me. I actually cringed when I saw that recent review
in RMC! I have the utmost admiration for what Al has done over the years
with casting, for I certainly lack his dedication and determination.

Tom Madden

If a helium-filled blimp were to crash near you, and you were to call for
help, no one would take you seriously.


ADMIN: Time to move on from heliumism...again

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Well...while various gases lighter than normal air...read that hot
air...don't seem to be immune from appearing on the group and certainly I
can generate it upon occasion, it is probably wise to take Richard's view
and move on from this most recent episode of heliumism.

Thanks.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Pre-painted resin (was Flat vs. one piece)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Isnít there a probable pitfall here? The tolerances in resin and styrene
kits are rather different. Resin cars do tend to come out very slightly
different sizes and shapes, and, if I understand things rightly, pad
printing depends on having a repeatable object on which to apply the
stencils.

Aidrian
Note that in my original post I specified "precision molded." It's
perfectly possible to mold resin parts to very close dimensional tolerances
(as Jon Cagle has done with the Harriman head end cars). And I would
expect one piece bodies to be more dimensionally predictable from one to
the next than flat molded parts, which in the past have (depending on
manufacturer) varied quite a bit.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Flat castings vs. one piece bodies.

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

You guys are correct of course. However, response to the one piece car
bodies is 5 to 1 over the flat castings among our customers. - Al
Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Culotta" <tculotta@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Flat castings vs. one piece bodies.


On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:27 AM, Denny Anspach wrote:

Tim O writes-

>For experienced modelers, building the
>basic box usually takes less than an hour anyway. It's the
>little details, painting, etc, that eat up time.


Re: Pre-painted resin (was Flat vs. one piece)

Tim O'Connor
 

Aidrian,

Might be a problem on single sheathed cars, but I think it
would not matter on a double sheathed or steel sheathed car.

Tim O.

Isn�t there a probable pitfall here? The tolerances in resin and styrene
kits are rather different. Resin cars do tend to come out very slightly
different sizes and shapes, and, if I understand things rightly, pad
printing depends on having a repeatable object on which to apply the
stencils.

Aidrian


Re: Helium cars

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

Just at a higher pitch.
--
Brian Ehni


From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:18:15 -0400
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Helium cars


Richard, if you put helium in the brake lines instead of regular
air, would it make the brakes squeal louder?


Re: Helium cars

Spen Kellogg <spenkell@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Richard, if you put helium in the brake lines instead of regular
air, would it make the brakes squeal louder?
Not louder, just higher pitched in a "Mickey Mouse" sort of voice.

Regards, Spen Kellogg


Re: Helium cars

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

No, just a higher pitch squeal. And wouldn't you have fun pumping up?
Helium is very good at finding leaks
Aidrian

From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:18 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Helium cars


Richard, if you put helium in the brake lines instead of regular
air, would it make the brakes squeal louder?



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Re: SOU 1937 AAR boxcars

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Thanks to all who responded. It's all good info and the problem has been
solved - a combination of a typo and not being sure about which lot we
were actually discussing.

Given the less than charming response of the person who wanted to know
in the first place, I don't know why I bothered you all about
this...sigh...

Aidrian


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Re: Pre-painted resin (was Flat vs. one piece)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Isn’t there a probable pitfall here? The tolerances in resin and styrene
kits are rather different. Resin cars do tend to come out very slightly
different sizes and shapes, and, if I understand things rightly, pad
printing depends on having a repeatable object on which to apply the
stencils.

Aidrian

Richard there are custom paint/pad printers out there
who will do runs of a few as 50 models. To test your theory I
wish Steve or Al would try sending 50 1-piece bodies to one of
these places to get them painted and lettered. Certainly if the
paint and lettering was up to a high standard, I would prefer
pre-painted bodies in most cases. I could paint the details
and underframes myself. (And I -always- do with plastic cars).<<

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Re: Helium cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, if you put helium in the brake lines instead of regular
air, would it make the brakes squeal louder?

For Pete's sake, we went through all this "helium cars are lighter when
loaded" nonsense less than a year ago on this list. Enough, already!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Caboose Trucks

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: PeteC
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Caboose Trucks

I think I would call Prec. Scale directly to
make sure you
are getting accurate information.
Absolutely! I've had the experience several times
of finding out that manufacturers ARE making
parts, but the distributors can't be bothered
carrying them in stock.

Go Direct.

SGL


Re: Digest Number 1876

ANTHONY CARRELL <anthony_carrell@...>
 

Now Joel why would you want to perpetuate such a silly Myth as that, if you call adding 3-4,000 lb's of compressed gas to the already heavy car maybe so but it is not in reality true the car gains the weight of the gas just like all other freight cars. when the gas is compressed in the tanks it becomes liquid and therefor is a solid and gives the car additional weight. Check out the pictures on the following web sites: TPRHS's site Texas Panhandle Railroad Historical Society and the Amarillo Railroad Museum's site @ amarillorailmuseum.com


There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

21. Helium cars
From: "Bill Lane"

24. Re: Helium cars
From: "Joel Norman"

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:15:43 -0400
From: "Bill Lane"
Subject: Helium cars

Hi All,

I am detailing an O Scale J&L Tank car for a customer. On the same pages in the Car Shed Cyclopedia of the J&L car
are 2 helium transport cars for the army and navy. With tongue somewhat pressed in check, were these cars lighter
loaded then when empty? (:->)

Thank You,
Bill Lane
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:50:12 -0500
From: "Joel Norman"
Subject: Re: Helium cars

YES

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Lane"
To: "Steam Era Freight cars"
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:15 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Helium cars


Hi All,

I am detailing an O Scale J&L Tank car for a customer. On the same pages
in the Car Shed Cyclopedia of the J&L car
are 2 helium transport cars for the army and navy. With tongue somewhat
pressed in check, were these cars lighter
loaded then when empty? (:->)

Thank You,
Bill Lane

Custom Brass Painting
http://www.lanestrains.com

Importing a Brass S Scale X29
http://www.pennsysmodels.com
The Production has begun for the REA Version

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957


Re: Helium cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

For Pete's sake, we went through all this "helium cars are lighter when
loaded" nonsense less than a year ago on this list. Enough, already!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: B&O Wagontop Models

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@w...> wrote:
Dave Pfeiffer wrote:
At the RPM meet in Malvern, Pa. in March, I picked up an HO resin M-
15-K made by Mount Clare Shops. <<snip>> From what I was told,
this
is not an F&C effort.

You were told wrong. This kit is a cooperative effort by Pro
Custom
Hobbies and Funaro.


Ben Hom
FYI, these cars only lasted in this form until 1955. At that time all
of the class M-15K had their underframes replaced with "AAR standard"
underframes. The underframes were flush with the side sheets and had
"tabs" at the bolsters and under the doors.

There is a photo on the Illinois railway Museum site:

http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Baltimore+&+Ohio=374065

Bob Witt


Re: Helium cars

Mike Turner <yardcoolieyahoo@...>
 

Physics Lesson Addendum:

The weight of vacuum is zero because it has no mass. Vacuum has less density than helium at any pressure. An empty (no gas, all vacuum) car in a normal atmosphere would be lighter than the same car filled with atmospheric pressure helium. We could have had vacuum filled dirigibles flying around if we could just have figured out how to keep them inflated. :)

The problem is that this is off topic since I don't think there were any vacuum cars roaming around during the steam era. :)

Mike Turner
Simpsonville, SC


Re: Old Rivarossi Chemical Tank Car - Any Prototype?

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:


Junk, Shawn, junk.

AHM did make a pressure type tank car with round ends that
was similar to a number of 1950's prototypes. I've never
measured one to see if it would fit the RC underframe or not.
FWIW It looks like an old Tyco or Tyco clone and still junk. - Bob
Witt


Re: Pre-painted resin (was Flat vs. one piece)

Tim O'Connor
 

Hmmmm.... Richard there are custom paint/pad printers out there
who will do runs of a few as 50 models. To test your theory I
wish Steve or Al would try sending 50 1-piece bodies to one of
these places to get them painted and lettered. Certainly if the
paint and lettering was up to a high standard, I would prefer
pre-painted bodies in most cases. I could paint the details
and underframes myself. (And I -always- do with plastic cars).

Tim O.

As I've pointed out periodically on this list, the largest single obstacle
to building resin kits for many modelers is painting and lettering. To do
it right, you have to have an airbrush, a compressor, a spray booth, and
quite a bit of skill and experience to get consistently good results. As
for decals/dry transfers, a lot of modelers find the very idea of doing
their own lettering seriously intimidating. Precision molded one piece
resin bodies can be factory painted and lettering can be pad printed, but
no one has tried it - yet. When they do, sales will spike to the point
where the people doing the molding will wish they'd never tried it. The
whole point about resin molding is that it requires little capital but is
very labor intensive and does not lend itself to large scale production.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Helium cars

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

I¹d guess a couple of pounds, no more.
--
Brian Ehni


From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:07:59 -0700
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Helium cars

And the one thousand dollar question is, how much lighter? Based on
those cars I will guess 9 ounces!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Old Rivarossi Chemical Tank Car - Any Prototype?

Tim O'Connor
 

I think I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask it
anyway: Is there any prototype for Rivarossi's version of a
chemical tank car?
http://www.rubylane.com/ni/shops/iceoriginals/iteml/847#pic1
Any thoughts, opinions, conjecture?
Shawn Beckert

Junk, Shawn, junk.

Buy yourself a Red Caboose tank car and the Plano 306 walkway
kit. That makes a nice postwar 103W.

AHM did make a pressure type tank car with round ends that
was similar to a number of 1950's prototypes. I've never
measured one to see if it would fit the RC underframe or not.

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