On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:56:26 -0800 (PST) Jeff Aley - GCD PE
<jaley@pcocd2.intel.com> writes:

Does anyone have any details on the Branchline EZ Kits? Is this
based on their Blueprint tooling, but with cast-on details?

And what about their "Yardmaster" series? What's the difference
between Yardmaster and EZ Kits?

Regards,

-Jeff

ATTENTION ALL. Coming soon to this list will be Mr. Bill
"we-haven't-shipped-that-yet" Schneider, chief honcho and bottle washer
of that part of BLT dedicated to destroying the balance of styrene and
ABS in the universe. I'm sure he will be glad to answer any and all of
your questions about their new kits in complete detail. Honesty is
optional at extra cost.

BSR

PS In case Bill doesn't get to it soon, the answers to your above
questions are: yes, no, what about it, much. Don't thank me, that's
what I'm here for.
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On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:56:05 -0600 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D."
<smithbf@mail.auburn.edu> writes:

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you might have information regarding WWII
era
Troop Sleepers and Kitchen cars manufactured by Pullman and ACF
respectively. I have seen the available info at the Cannonball site
(selling HO kits) and the NEB&W site. I am particularly looking for
diagrams of the underside of the car to locate steam and brake
lines.

Bruce,

MR published a drawing of a Troop Sleeper converted to a service car
several years back. I don't have a copy handy for the date but I'm sure
it will surface via some kind soul. The drawings included an excellent
underbody view showing all the structural members and full brake rigging,
both AB sets worth. I'd say it was indispensable to your efforts.

There are more than several troop cars still in existence, at least that
I am aware of. One is at Union Bridge, Maryland, in the WM Hist Soc
collection, an almost virginal car with all its windows intact and riding
on AFC trucks. Another is closer to DC in a small station display along
with other freight and passenger cars and a small steam lokie. It is in
about the same condition as the WMHS car. And one at Illinois Ry Museum.

I am told a troop sleeper resides at the B&O musuem in Baltimore
(Their web
site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs?

I know that the Southeastern R museum in Duluth Ga (atlanta) has a
Kitchen
car - I have photos and will be back there soon to craawl all over
that sucker!

How about photos documenting the underframe structure and brake systems?

Any other information that you think might be helpful would be most
welcome
- I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the
detailing stage

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce, if that's the same Cannonball kit I saw at Mitchells last fall,
why would you waste your time on it? The rivets look like flattened
grapefruit halves and the panel line are non existent. It's almost
criminal that someone capable of producing scale size rivets hasn't done
this car yet. Of course, that statement leaves InterMountain out,
doesn't it? But I have been hearing rumors that it will be produced by a
capable manufacturer in the not to distant future. Let's all hope.

Byron Rose
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Here's the s-mail address and ordering info:

RP Cyc Publishing Co.
PO Box 451
Chesterfield MO 63006-0451

Each issue is $20.95 post paid.


Ben Hom

A friend of mine has a July 52 ORER he wants to unload,
asking $75, but I think he might take a bit less.
I will relay any offers anyone cares to submit through me (off
list, of course).

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@rpi.edu

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone have any details on the Branchline EZ Kits? Is this based on
their Blueprint tooling, but with cast-on details?

And what about their "Yardmaster" series? What's the difference between
Yardmaster and EZ Kits?

(References: http://www.branchline-trains.com/ezkits/40ezkits.htm
http://www.branchline-trains.com/ ).

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Guys,

For those of you wanting RPC #5 with the article on
troop sleepers, you can probably order right from
their website if you don't have a hobby shop nearby.

They're at: http://hometown.aol.com/rpcyc/rpcychome.html

Shawn Beckert

John,

You replied:

If anyone has this, I'll be glad to post it on our site for future
reference. - John

I'm a little foggy on what you meant? (I'm a little foggy PERIOD, but thats
another story!)...Were you referring to additional photos of the cars?

I can supply some info on the kitchen car. It is a 1944 ACF product and as
mentioned, it is at the Southeastern Railway Museum
(http://www.srmduluth.org/). The museum is located in Duluth, Georgia, a
suburb of Atlanta. It is owned and operated by the Atlanta Chapter,
National Railway Historical Society and is staffed completely with
volunteers. The car is painted in what I beleive to be a later US Army
scheme (as opposed to the original Pullman scheme), and I beleive that this
car was never modified fo alternative service and has its interior intact.
The car can be seen at: http://www.srmduluth.org/Exhibits/misc.htm

I will scan the photos I have of this car and create a photopoint site.
The staff at the site is really nice and when I asked, they seemed thrilled
that I would be interested in taking a really good look at their car.

BTW, the photo of Troop Sleeper #7040 on your site looks to be a "Phase I"
Pullman troop sleeper (as defined by Cannonball), which makes sense since
it is in the first number series (ie built in 1943). The Cannonball kit
most readily makes a phase II, but of course, I have to be difficult and
model the phase I variation! There are subtle variations like the side
sills that distinguish version...

Happy Rails

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Ben wrote:

Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
comprehensive and well-illustrated article on Troop Sleepers and
Kitchen Cars.

Hi Ben

Great! Could you let me know how and where I might get this publication?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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I host the Iowainterurbansandstreetrailways mailing list. I will ask
there and see if anyone has information on what type of deck the
gun-flat has on it. In all my years of looking at it, I never noted
whether or not it had a wooden deck......

Kicking myself.....

Paul Kattner

--- In STMFC@egroups.com, Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@a...> wrote:

Paul,

The photo of MC&CL #104 sure looks like a PRR 30' flat car. The

shape

of the side sills is right, as are the number and spacing of the

stake

pockets. The trucks also appear to be PRR Class 2E1F1, although the
angled view makes it a little hard to tell.

These trucks were removed from the cars by 1930. However, they were
probably put into MW service, perhaps as spares in wreck trains.

The

1937 date may well be correct, but not for an F23. From diagrams

and

side view builders' photos, it looks like the F23 body rode lower on

the

trucks than did the F22. The lower edge of the F23 side sill comes

very

close to the top of the arch bar trucks. There's a noticeable gap
between the bottom of the F22 side sill and the top of the truck.

The

photo of MC&CL #104 shows a gap typical of an F22. Perhaps Byron

can

check the detail drawings of these cars to confirm this difference
between F22 and F23.

While all the F23 cars remained in service on the PRR into 1952,

several

F22 cars were dropped from the roster in the late 1930's. Many cars

of

that vintage were sold to railroad equipment dealers who resold them

to

short lines. The Pennsy probably wouldn't have sold the

relatively-new

cast steel trucks and substituted the old original arch bar trucks
instead - perfectly usable for MW service.

It would be interesting to check a few things to confirm that MC&CL

#104

is a PRR car. The castings should have PRR and a pattern number
(typically beginning with a V) in raised characters. Is the arch

bar

truck wheelbase 5'-7" (which I think is a relatively unusual size)?
What is the height from the rail head to the top surface of the

floor?

If it's an F23, this dimension should be 3'-4 7/8". If the car

passed

all the other checks and this dimension is a couple of inches

greater

than 3'-4 7/8", then it is probably a former PRR F22 that somehow

got a

steel floor. Does the steel floor look like a real steel floor with

a

multitude of rivets, or does it look like a slab of steel put on for
weight and/or to replace a rotted-out wooden floor?

As you say, a lot of questions, indeed.

Bob Johnson

If anyone has this, I'll be glad to post it on our site for future
reference. - John

Ben,
Is it possible toorder a copy of this publication? Thank you very
much.

Warren Dickinson

Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
comprehensive and well-illustrated article on Troop Sleepers and
Kitchen Cars.


Ben Hom

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you might have information regarding WWII era
Troop Sleepers and Kitchen cars manufactured by Pullman and ACF
respectively. I have seen the available info at the Cannonball site
(selling HO kits) and the NEB&W site. I am particularly looking for
diagrams of the underside of the car to locate steam and brake lines.

I am told a troop sleeper resides at the B&O musuem in Baltimore (Their web
site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs?

I know that the Southeastern R museum in Duluth Ga (atlanta) has a Kitchen
car - I have photos and will be back there soon to craawl all over that
sucker!

Any other information that you think might be helpful would be most welcome
- I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the detailing
stage

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Paul,

The photo of MC&CL #104 sure looks like a PRR 30' flat car. The shape
of the side sills is right, as are the number and spacing of the stake
pockets. The trucks also appear to be PRR Class 2E1F1, although the
angled view makes it a little hard to tell.

These trucks were removed from the cars by 1930. However, they were
probably put into MW service, perhaps as spares in wreck trains. The
1937 date may well be correct, but not for an F23. From diagrams and
side view builders' photos, it looks like the F23 body rode lower on the
trucks than did the F22. The lower edge of the F23 side sill comes very
close to the top of the arch bar trucks. There's a noticeable gap
between the bottom of the F22 side sill and the top of the truck. The
photo of MC&CL #104 shows a gap typical of an F22. Perhaps Byron can
check the detail drawings of these cars to confirm this difference
between F22 and F23.

While all the F23 cars remained in service on the PRR into 1952, several
F22 cars were dropped from the roster in the late 1930's. Many cars of
that vintage were sold to railroad equipment dealers who resold them to
short lines. The Pennsy probably wouldn't have sold the relatively-new
cast steel trucks and substituted the old original arch bar trucks
instead - perfectly usable for MW service.

It would be interesting to check a few things to confirm that MC&CL #104
is a PRR car. The castings should have PRR and a pattern number
(typically beginning with a V) in raised characters. Is the arch bar
truck wheelbase 5'-7" (which I think is a relatively unusual size)?
What is the height from the rail head to the top surface of the floor?
If it's an F23, this dimension should be 3'-4 7/8". If the car passed
all the other checks and this dimension is a couple of inches greater
than 3'-4 7/8", then it is probably a former PRR F22 that somehow got a
steel floor. Does the steel floor look like a real steel floor with a
multitude of rivets, or does it look like a slab of steel put on for
weight and/or to replace a rotted-out wooden floor?

As you say, a lot of questions, indeed.

Bob Johnson


Paul Kattner wrote:

Byron,

Well, there were the following flat cars rebuilt from gondolas: FGR,
FGR-1, FGR-2, FGR-3, FGRa, FG27, FG27a, and FG27b. And, flat cars
rebuilt from box car underframes - FXL. I don't know of any gondolas
rebuilt from flat cars. Would you settle for a gondola rebuilt from a
box car underframe - the truly weird GXL? And then, there's the cabin
cars rebuilt from box cars - the eagerly-awaited NX23.

Bob Johnson


byronrose@juno.com wrote:

Funny how information just falls into your lap sometimes - got my
copy of the February 2000 RMC the other day and finally got around to
reading it. Railworks' ad on page 21 includes a picture of PRR
925532, Class F22, 2F-F2 trucks in a cut of at least 3 gun flats with
a large naval or coast defense gun load clearly showing the blocking
and tie rods restraining the load. The ad gives a release date of
January 2001 for Class F22, F28, F29, and FD1 flatcars.


Ben Hom

Byron Rose asked:
Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from
gons? Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above?
None?

Several pictures of PRR MOW equipment in the Morning Sun color guides
show composite equipment classes of F[original class] - FGRA MOW
flats and an FXLI crane idler car on its way to the scrapper loaded
on an F30a.

Ben Hom

Bob,

My comment about car names wasn't intended as Pennsy fact, although I can
see it being taken that way. I was simply stating my description of the
various cars usage, as based on photos and loading diagrams. I have a
gun loading drawing for use with 3 F23s, therefore I consider it to be
thought of as a "gun flat." The F22s had a wood deck just like their big
brothers, the FMs, therefore they appear to be usable as general service
flats, only shorter. I never even thought to see what the MCB or ARA or
AAR listing might be.

The pennsy had a way with words that doesn't always follow logic. Like
calling hopper cars type "G." And yes I know the genesis of the letter
"G" usage. I also don't know how the Pennsy works.

Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from gons?
Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above? None?

T - t - t - that's all folks.

BSR


On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:35:52 -0500 Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
writes:

Byron and list,

While I agree that F22 had a wood floor and F23 had a steel floor, I
do
not agree that F23 was a gun car and F22 was not. All known issues
of
PRR's "Classification of Cars" show F22 as a flat car with center
plate
for twin loads and F23 as a flat car with steel floor. From photos
we
know that the center plate was often removed from F22 cars.

Although one can't necessarily trust the listings in ORER's, it's
interesting to note that from 1913 through 1968 Class F23 was listed
as
a Flat Car of MCB or AAR Mechanical Designation FM - never as a gun
car.

The F22 cars built for PRR Lines East (435287-435400) were first
listed
in the ORER in 1913 as Flat Cars, MCB FM. In 1914 this was changed
to
Gun & Flat, still MCB FM. By 1916 the description had been revised
to
Flat & Gun, still MCB FM. In 1924 the MCB Designation was changed
to
FG. The Flat & Gun description with MCB FG lasted into 1967. By
1968
it was changed to Flat, but the AAR designation was still FG.

Oddly enough, the F22 cars built for Lines West (925526-925535) used
a
different description. Like the other cars, they started as Flat
Cars,
MCB FM. Starting in 1924 they were described as Gun Cars, but still
MCB
FM. The MCB designation was changed to FG in 1925. The description
was
changed to Flat, Gun in 1927 with MCB FG. This remained in effect
through 1967. There are lots of photos of pairs of F22 cars
carrying
large caliber gun barrels, not published, unfortunately.

Bob Johnson

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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:36:13 -0500
From: Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Gun Flats

Paul and list,

There's a problem with a PRR F23 being acquired by the MC&CL before
WWII. All six Class F23 cars were still in service on the PRR as late
as 10-1-1952 according to internal PRR reports on file in the PA State
Archives. One was dropped from the roster during the month of October
1952. It seems unlikely that anyone could have pulled a LaSalle &
Bureau County-type theft and have hidden the car for over 11 years while
the Pennsy continued to carry it on the books. That sort of thing
happened in Penn Central days. If the car is a PRR F23, it was probably
acquired in the 50's.

Bob Johnson

The car being stolen is somewhat of a local legend--no way of verifying its truthfulness. It strikes me as kind of funny-little MC&CL swiping a car from the giant PRR. The evidence that I have that the car was on the MC&CL before WWII is the date of the photo at http://donross.railspot.com/mccl104.jpg
which is dated as August 4, 1937. I realize that dates are sometimes wrong.... Another piece of evidence is the continued presence of arch-bar trucks on this car. Wren't Arch-bars banned from interchange in 1941? These flats had realtively high loading capacity for their time. They were clearly special purpose cars. Wouldn't PRR have swapped out the arch-bars for something a little more road-worthy well before WWII? Also if the MC&CL was looking for freight car to use as a basis for a snowplow (to be purchased) why did they not buy one off of the four railroads that they interchanged with?

A lot of questions for a rather modest little car!

Have a Good Day
Paul Kattner
_________________________________________________________________
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Paul and list,

There's a problem with a PRR F23 being acquired by the MC&CL before
WWII. All six Class F23 cars were still in service on the PRR as late
as 10-1-1952 according to internal PRR reports on file in the PA State
Archives. One was dropped from the roster during the month of October
1952. It seems unlikely that anyone could have pulled a LaSalle &
Bureau County-type theft and have hidden the car for over 11 years while
the Pennsy continued to carry it on the books. That sort of thing
happened in Penn Central days. If the car is a PRR F23, it was probably
acquired in the 50's.

Bob Johnson


Paul Kattner wrote: