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Re: Troop Sleepers
John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
If anyone has this, I'll be glad to post it on our site for future
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reference. - John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu> To: <STMFC@egroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: [STMFC] Troop Sleepers Hi All,web site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs?welcome - I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the detailingFranklin __
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Re: Troop Sleepers
ibs4421@...
Ben,
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Is it possible toorder a copy of this publication? Thank you very much. Warren Dickinson
Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
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Re: Troop Sleepers
Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
comprehensive and well-illustrated article on Troop Sleepers and Kitchen Cars. Ben Hom
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Troop Sleepers
Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
Hi All,
I was wondering if any of you might have information regarding WWII era Troop Sleepers and Kitchen cars manufactured by Pullman and ACF respectively. I have seen the available info at the Cannonball site (selling HO kits) and the NEB&W site. I am particularly looking for diagrams of the underside of the car to locate steam and brake lines. I am told a troop sleeper resides at the B&O musuem in Baltimore (Their web site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs? I know that the Southeastern R museum in Duluth Ga (atlanta) has a Kitchen car - I have photos and will be back there soon to craawl all over that sucker! Any other information that you think might be helpful would be most welcome - I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the detailing stage Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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Re: Gun Flats
Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
Paul,
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The photo of MC&CL #104 sure looks like a PRR 30' flat car. The shape of the side sills is right, as are the number and spacing of the stake pockets. The trucks also appear to be PRR Class 2E1F1, although the angled view makes it a little hard to tell. These trucks were removed from the cars by 1930. However, they were probably put into MW service, perhaps as spares in wreck trains. The 1937 date may well be correct, but not for an F23. From diagrams and side view builders' photos, it looks like the F23 body rode lower on the trucks than did the F22. The lower edge of the F23 side sill comes very close to the top of the arch bar trucks. There's a noticeable gap between the bottom of the F22 side sill and the top of the truck. The photo of MC&CL #104 shows a gap typical of an F22. Perhaps Byron can check the detail drawings of these cars to confirm this difference between F22 and F23. While all the F23 cars remained in service on the PRR into 1952, several F22 cars were dropped from the roster in the late 1930's. Many cars of that vintage were sold to railroad equipment dealers who resold them to short lines. The Pennsy probably wouldn't have sold the relatively-new cast steel trucks and substituted the old original arch bar trucks instead - perfectly usable for MW service. It would be interesting to check a few things to confirm that MC&CL #104 is a PRR car. The castings should have PRR and a pattern number (typically beginning with a V) in raised characters. Is the arch bar truck wheelbase 5'-7" (which I think is a relatively unusual size)? What is the height from the rail head to the top surface of the floor? If it's an F23, this dimension should be 3'-4 7/8". If the car passed all the other checks and this dimension is a couple of inches greater than 3'-4 7/8", then it is probably a former PRR F22 that somehow got a steel floor. Does the steel floor look like a real steel floor with a multitude of rivets, or does it look like a slab of steel put on for weight and/or to replace a rotted-out wooden floor? As you say, a lot of questions, indeed. Bob Johnson Paul Kattner wrote:
The car being stolen is somewhat of a local legend--no way of verifying its
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Re: Gun Flats
Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
Byron,
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Well, there were the following flat cars rebuilt from gondolas: FGR, FGR-1, FGR-2, FGR-3, FGRa, FG27, FG27a, and FG27b. And, flat cars rebuilt from box car underframes - FXL. I don't know of any gondolas rebuilt from flat cars. Would you settle for a gondola rebuilt from a box car underframe - the truly weird GXL? And then, there's the cabin cars rebuilt from box cars - the eagerly-awaited NX23. Bob Johnson byronrose@juno.com wrote:
The pennsy had a way with words that doesn't always follow logic. Like
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Re: Gun Flats
Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
Funny how information just falls into your lap sometimes - got my
copy of the February 2000 RMC the other day and finally got around to reading it. Railworks' ad on page 21 includes a picture of PRR 925532, Class F22, 2F-F2 trucks in a cut of at least 3 gun flats with a large naval or coast defense gun load clearly showing the blocking and tie rods restraining the load. The ad gives a release date of January 2001 for Class F22, F28, F29, and FD1 flatcars. Ben Hom
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Re: PRR Converted Flatcars (was Gun Flats)
Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
Byron Rose asked:
Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from gons? Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above? None? Several pictures of PRR MOW equipment in the Morning Sun color guides show composite equipment classes of F[original class] - FGRA MOW flats and an FXLI crane idler car on its way to the scrapper loaded on an F30a. Ben Hom
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Re: Gun Flats
byronrose@...
Bob,
My comment about car names wasn't intended as Pennsy fact, although I can see it being taken that way. I was simply stating my description of the various cars usage, as based on photos and loading diagrams. I have a gun loading drawing for use with 3 F23s, therefore I consider it to be thought of as a "gun flat." The F22s had a wood deck just like their big brothers, the FMs, therefore they appear to be usable as general service flats, only shorter. I never even thought to see what the MCB or ARA or AAR listing might be. The pennsy had a way with words that doesn't always follow logic. Like calling hopper cars type "G." And yes I know the genesis of the letter "G" usage. I also don't know how the Pennsy works. Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from gons? Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above? None? T - t - t - that's all folks. BSR On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:35:52 -0500 Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@alltel.net> writes: Byron and list,________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
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Re: Digest Number 37
Paul Kattner
The car being stolen is somewhat of a local legend--no way of verifying its truthfulness. It strikes me as kind of funny-little MC&CL swiping a car from the giant PRR. The evidence that I have that the car was on the MC&CL before WWII is the date of the photo at http://donross.railspot.com/mccl104.jpg which is dated as August 4, 1937. I realize that dates are sometimes wrong.... Another piece of evidence is the continued presence of arch-bar trucks on this car. Wren't Arch-bars banned from interchange in 1941? These flats had realtively high loading capacity for their time. They were clearly special purpose cars. Wouldn't PRR have swapped out the arch-bars for something a little more road-worthy well before WWII? Also if the MC&CL was looking for freight car to use as a basis for a snowplow (to be purchased) why did they not buy one off of the four railroads that they interchanged with? A lot of questions for a rather modest little car! Have a Good Day Paul Kattner _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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Re: Gun Flats
Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
Paul and list,
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There's a problem with a PRR F23 being acquired by the MC&CL before WWII. All six Class F23 cars were still in service on the PRR as late as 10-1-1952 according to internal PRR reports on file in the PA State Archives. One was dropped from the roster during the month of October 1952. It seems unlikely that anyone could have pulled a LaSalle & Bureau County-type theft and have hidden the car for over 11 years while the Pennsy continued to carry it on the books. That sort of thing happened in Penn Central days. If the car is a PRR F23, it was probably acquired in the 50's. Bob Johnson Paul Kattner wrote:
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Re: Gun Flats
Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
Byron and list,
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While I agree that F22 had a wood floor and F23 had a steel floor, I do not agree that F23 was a gun car and F22 was not. All known issues of PRR's "Classification of Cars" show F22 as a flat car with center plate for twin loads and F23 as a flat car with steel floor. From photos we know that the center plate was often removed from F22 cars. Although one can't necessarily trust the listings in ORER's, it's interesting to note that from 1913 through 1968 Class F23 was listed as a Flat Car of MCB or AAR Mechanical Designation FM - never as a gun car. The F22 cars built for PRR Lines East (435287-435400) were first listed in the ORER in 1913 as Flat Cars, MCB FM. In 1914 this was changed to Gun & Flat, still MCB FM. By 1916 the description had been revised to Flat & Gun, still MCB FM. In 1924 the MCB Designation was changed to FG. The Flat & Gun description with MCB FG lasted into 1967. By 1968 it was changed to Flat, but the AAR designation was still FG. Oddly enough, the F22 cars built for Lines West (925526-925535) used a different description. Like the other cars, they started as Flat Cars, MCB FM. Starting in 1924 they were described as Gun Cars, but still MCB FM. The MCB designation was changed to FG in 1925. The description was changed to Flat, Gun in 1927 with MCB FG. This remained in effect through 1967. There are lots of photos of pairs of F22 cars carrying large caliber gun barrels, not published, unfortunately. Bob Johnson byronrose@juno.com wrote:
I'll spare you a long history of my research on the FMs, F22s, and F23s,
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Re: Gun Flats
Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
Richard and list,
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Regarding the trucks on PRR Class F22 and F23 flat cars, I agree with Richard's comments about the appearance of the cast trucks. However, there was no such class as 2DF4. PRR truck classification was a five character system. The class was 2D-F4. The dash was not optional. It meant the truck was equipped with standard ARA (later AAR) axles. A number in the third position meant a deviation from standard. All 124 F22 cars and all 6 F23 cars were built (in 1913) with arch bar trucks of Class 2E1F1. These trucks had 5'-7" wheelbase and Number 8A axles. The nominal capacity was 75 tons. Beginning in 1924, the nominal capacity of some of the cars began to be increased to 95 tons, presumably by change of trucks. All six F23 cars were 95 ton by the end of 1925, but it took until early 1930 for all the F22 cars to be so equipped. I don't know what truck class was used for the early conversions. PRR truck classification drawing D70003B shows Class 2F-F1 crown cast steel trucks as applied to F22 and F23 built after 3-16-15. However, no F22 or F23 cars were built after 1913, so this must have been an intention that was never carried out. Furthermore, a note on a subsequent truck classification drawing (D74604F 2-6-1929) states "F22 and F23 with 2F-F1 trucks have been crossed off on account of this class of truck having never been applied to these cars." Drawing D74604G indicates that truck class 2F-F2 has been added for F22 and F23 and class 2E1F1 has been crossed off as of 12-16-29. Class 2F-F2 is the cast steel truck Richard described. It had a 5'-8" wheelbase. A later truck classification drawing (C422800A 11-11-40) shows that Class 2F-F2 could be equipped with either coil springs as Richard described or with coil-elliptic springs. These latter had a leaf or elliptic spring between the outer sets of coil springs. Photos show both styles of springs in use. Bob Johnson Richard Hendrickson wrote:
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New file uploaded to STMFC
STMFC@...
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC group. File : /Truck Swing.5.xls Uploaded by : Dick.Harley@wdc.com Description : Data for truck clearance on HO models You can access this file at the URL http://www.egroups.com/files/STMFC/Truck+Swing%2E5%2Exls To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html Regards, Dick.Harley@wdc.com
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UP coal out of Utah
Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
The recent post (which I deleted in error please excuse me) I believe sed UP
did not load Utah coal in the 50's. But it did haul Utah Coal, loaded on the Utah Ry, to Southern California for steel making. I can't check now/here, but I believe the Utah Coal Route fleet of GS gons was 50% owned by UP/URy. Probable routing : URy over Soldier Summit, to UP at Provo, Leamington Cutoff to the LA&SL mainline
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Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Group,
My apologies. My note on the scans was intended only for John Nierich. Oops. Anyway, the rest of you might find them interesting, though they are a bit out of this group's era. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff
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Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
John,
You will find a scan of the Southern heavy duty flat car, and two of SP Commonwealth wood racks, mounted blind on my web site. Please copy them onto your own machine, rather than just linking to my images. My employer gives me limited disk space, and I will have to take them down as soon as you let me know you have them safely copied. They are at: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/sou349012.jpg http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/spmw7055.jpg http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/spmw7105.jpg I hope they aren't too dark. They looked a lot lighter on my Mac at home. Feel free to adjust the contrast as you see fit. If these are really too dark for you, I will play with them some more and remount. The Southern flat was photographed in Charlottesville, Virginia, circa 1987. SPMW 7055 was taken at Roseville, California in April 1998. SPMW 7105 was also found at Roseville in May 1994. I was the photographer of all three pictures. You are welcome to use these on your web site, or for any other non-commercial purpose, as you see fit. Credit would be appreciated, but is not required. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff
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Re: Gun Flats
Jack Priller <Gndlfstram@...>
--- In STMFC@egroups.com, "Paul Kattner" <paulkattner@h...> wrote:
The F23 flatcar still has its heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle &Have a spare set of LS&BC decals, as well as my membership in the LaSalle & Bureau County Model Railroad Club. Need any boxcars? Got any spare pantographs? Jack "The trolley nut" Priller Honorable Association of Good Guys and Irreverent Souls "To comfort the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable."
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Re: Gun Flats
Stafford F. Swain <sswain@...>
. . and while you are there (assuming you are a 1950s R'nR fan like myself and two other listers I know of - right Al and Tony), check out the Surf Ball Room in Clear Lake which is famous as being the venue that Holly, Valens and the Bopper played in just before getting a ride with the wrong plane/pilot in the wee morning hours of Feb. 3/59.
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>I'm glad to hear that there is one of these still extant. I mayhave tomake a pilgrimage this summer. Can you tell me what and where theMC&CLis?The MC&CL (Mason City and Clear Lake) flat is usually located at the --
Stafford Swain 26 Kenneth Street Winnipeg, MB, Canada R3T 0K8 (204) 477-9246 sswain@total.net
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Re: Gun Flats
Paul Kattner
have to make a pilgrimage this summer. Can you tell me what and where theMC&CL is?The MC&CL (Mason City and Clear Lake) flat is usually located at the Iowa Traction Railroad shops in Emery, Iowa which is half way between Mason City & Clear Lake. this railroad is notable as being one of three common carrier freight railroads still using 600 volt DC overhead wires. It has a small fleet of Baldwin-Westinghouse Steeplecab 50 & 60 ton locomotives. The F23 flatcar still has its heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle & Bureau County style) before WWII. From the late 60's to a couple of years ago, this car sported a large platform for working on the overhead wire. This platform was removed and mounted on one of the other IATR flats. The cities of Mason City and Clear Lak, Iowa are located at the Junction of U.S. Highway 18 & Interstate 35 in North Central, Iowa. And remember that you can't put a trolley pole on a Pennsy flat,you have to use a pantograph.Funny Thanks for the Info! Paul Kattner
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