Date   

Re: Troop Sleepers

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

If anyone has this, I'll be glad to post it on our site for future
reference. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: <STMFC@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 1:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Troop Sleepers


Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you might have information regarding WWII era
Troop Sleepers and Kitchen cars manufactured by Pullman and ACF
respectively. I have seen the available info at the Cannonball site
(selling HO kits) and the NEB&W site. I am particularly looking for
diagrams of the underside of the car to locate steam and brake lines.

I am told a troop sleeper resides at the B&O musuem in Baltimore (Their
web
site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs?

I know that the Southeastern R museum in Duluth Ga (atlanta) has a Kitchen
car - I have photos and will be back there soon to craawl all over that
sucker!

Any other information that you think might be helpful would be most
welcome
- I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the detailing
stage

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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Re: Troop Sleepers

ibs4421@...
 

Ben,
Is it possible toorder a copy of this publication? Thank you very
much.

Warren Dickinson

Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
comprehensive and well-illustrated article on Troop Sleepers and
Kitchen Cars.


Re: Troop Sleepers

Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Bruce, the latest Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia contains a
comprehensive and well-illustrated article on Troop Sleepers and
Kitchen Cars.


Ben Hom


Troop Sleepers

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Hi All,

I was wondering if any of you might have information regarding WWII era
Troop Sleepers and Kitchen cars manufactured by Pullman and ACF
respectively. I have seen the available info at the Cannonball site
(selling HO kits) and the NEB&W site. I am particularly looking for
diagrams of the underside of the car to locate steam and brake lines.

I am told a troop sleeper resides at the B&O musuem in Baltimore (Their web
site is next to useless) - anyone have photographs?

I know that the Southeastern R museum in Duluth Ga (atlanta) has a Kitchen
car - I have photos and will be back there soon to craawl all over that
sucker!

Any other information that you think might be helpful would be most welcome
- I'm building up a train of the Cannonball cars and am at the detailing
stage

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Gun Flats

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

Paul,

The photo of MC&CL #104 sure looks like a PRR 30' flat car. The shape
of the side sills is right, as are the number and spacing of the stake
pockets. The trucks also appear to be PRR Class 2E1F1, although the
angled view makes it a little hard to tell.

These trucks were removed from the cars by 1930. However, they were
probably put into MW service, perhaps as spares in wreck trains. The
1937 date may well be correct, but not for an F23. From diagrams and
side view builders' photos, it looks like the F23 body rode lower on the
trucks than did the F22. The lower edge of the F23 side sill comes very
close to the top of the arch bar trucks. There's a noticeable gap
between the bottom of the F22 side sill and the top of the truck. The
photo of MC&CL #104 shows a gap typical of an F22. Perhaps Byron can
check the detail drawings of these cars to confirm this difference
between F22 and F23.

While all the F23 cars remained in service on the PRR into 1952, several
F22 cars were dropped from the roster in the late 1930's. Many cars of
that vintage were sold to railroad equipment dealers who resold them to
short lines. The Pennsy probably wouldn't have sold the relatively-new
cast steel trucks and substituted the old original arch bar trucks
instead - perfectly usable for MW service.

It would be interesting to check a few things to confirm that MC&CL #104
is a PRR car. The castings should have PRR and a pattern number
(typically beginning with a V) in raised characters. Is the arch bar
truck wheelbase 5'-7" (which I think is a relatively unusual size)?
What is the height from the rail head to the top surface of the floor?
If it's an F23, this dimension should be 3'-4 7/8". If the car passed
all the other checks and this dimension is a couple of inches greater
than 3'-4 7/8", then it is probably a former PRR F22 that somehow got a
steel floor. Does the steel floor look like a real steel floor with a
multitude of rivets, or does it look like a slab of steel put on for
weight and/or to replace a rotted-out wooden floor?

As you say, a lot of questions, indeed.

Bob Johnson


Paul Kattner wrote:

The car being stolen is somewhat of a local legend--no way of verifying its
truthfulness. It strikes me as kind of funny-little MC&CL swiping a car
from the giant PRR. The evidence that I have that the car was on the MC&CL
before WWII is the date of the photo at
http://donross.railspot.com/mccl104.jpg
which is dated as August 4, 1937. I realize that dates are sometimes
wrong.... Another piece of evidence is the continued presence of arch-bar
trucks on this car. Wren't Arch-bars banned from interchange in 1941?
These flats had realtively high loading capacity for their time. They were
clearly special purpose cars. Wouldn't PRR have swapped out the arch-bars
for something a little more road-worthy well before WWII? Also if the MC&CL
was looking for freight car to use as a basis for a snowplow (to be
purchased) why did they not buy one off of the four railroads that they
interchanged with?

A lot of questions for a rather modest little car!


Re: Gun Flats

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

Byron,

Well, there were the following flat cars rebuilt from gondolas: FGR,
FGR-1, FGR-2, FGR-3, FGRa, FG27, FG27a, and FG27b. And, flat cars
rebuilt from box car underframes - FXL. I don't know of any gondolas
rebuilt from flat cars. Would you settle for a gondola rebuilt from a
box car underframe - the truly weird GXL? And then, there's the cabin
cars rebuilt from box cars - the eagerly-awaited NX23.

Bob Johnson


byronrose@juno.com wrote:

The pennsy had a way with words that doesn't always follow logic. Like
calling hopper cars type "G." And yes I know the genesis of the letter
"G" usage. I also don't know how the Pennsy works.

Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from gons?
Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above? None?


Re: Gun Flats

Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Funny how information just falls into your lap sometimes - got my
copy of the February 2000 RMC the other day and finally got around to
reading it. Railworks' ad on page 21 includes a picture of PRR
925532, Class F22, 2F-F2 trucks in a cut of at least 3 gun flats with
a large naval or coast defense gun load clearly showing the blocking
and tie rods restraining the load. The ad gives a release date of
January 2001 for Class F22, F28, F29, and FD1 flatcars.


Ben Hom


Re: PRR Converted Flatcars (was Gun Flats)

Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Byron Rose asked:
Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from
gons? Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above?
None?

Several pictures of PRR MOW equipment in the Morning Sun color guides
show composite equipment classes of F[original class] - FGRA MOW
flats and an FXLI crane idler car on its way to the scrapper loaded
on an F30a.

Ben Hom


Re: Gun Flats

byronrose@...
 

Bob,

My comment about car names wasn't intended as Pennsy fact, although I can
see it being taken that way. I was simply stating my description of the
various cars usage, as based on photos and loading diagrams. I have a
gun loading drawing for use with 3 F23s, therefore I consider it to be
thought of as a "gun flat." The F22s had a wood deck just like their big
brothers, the FMs, therefore they appear to be usable as general service
flats, only shorter. I never even thought to see what the MCB or ARA or
AAR listing might be.

The pennsy had a way with words that doesn't always follow logic. Like
calling hopper cars type "G." And yes I know the genesis of the letter
"G" usage. I also don't know how the Pennsy works.

Didn't the Pennsy also use "FG" classes for flat cars built from gons?
Or was it GF for gons built from flat cars? Or all of above? None?

T - t - t - that's all folks.

BSR


On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:35:52 -0500 Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
writes:
Byron and list,

While I agree that F22 had a wood floor and F23 had a steel floor, I
do
not agree that F23 was a gun car and F22 was not. All known issues
of
PRR's "Classification of Cars" show F22 as a flat car with center
plate
for twin loads and F23 as a flat car with steel floor. From photos
we
know that the center plate was often removed from F22 cars.

Although one can't necessarily trust the listings in ORER's, it's
interesting to note that from 1913 through 1968 Class F23 was listed
as
a Flat Car of MCB or AAR Mechanical Designation FM - never as a gun
car.

The F22 cars built for PRR Lines East (435287-435400) were first
listed
in the ORER in 1913 as Flat Cars, MCB FM. In 1914 this was changed
to
Gun & Flat, still MCB FM. By 1916 the description had been revised
to
Flat & Gun, still MCB FM. In 1924 the MCB Designation was changed
to
FG. The Flat & Gun description with MCB FG lasted into 1967. By
1968
it was changed to Flat, but the AAR designation was still FG.

Oddly enough, the F22 cars built for Lines West (925526-925535) used
a
different description. Like the other cars, they started as Flat
Cars,
MCB FM. Starting in 1924 they were described as Gun Cars, but still
MCB
FM. The MCB designation was changed to FG in 1925. The description
was
changed to Flat, Gun in 1927 with MCB FG. This remained in effect
through 1967. There are lots of photos of pairs of F22 cars
carrying
large caliber gun barrels, not published, unfortunately.

Bob Johnson
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Re: Digest Number 37

Paul Kattner
 


Message: 6
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:36:13 -0500
From: Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@alltel.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Gun Flats

Paul and list,

There's a problem with a PRR F23 being acquired by the MC&CL before
WWII. All six Class F23 cars were still in service on the PRR as late
as 10-1-1952 according to internal PRR reports on file in the PA State
Archives. One was dropped from the roster during the month of October
1952. It seems unlikely that anyone could have pulled a LaSalle &
Bureau County-type theft and have hidden the car for over 11 years while
the Pennsy continued to carry it on the books. That sort of thing
happened in Penn Central days. If the car is a PRR F23, it was probably
acquired in the 50's.

Bob Johnson
The car being stolen is somewhat of a local legend--no way of verifying its truthfulness. It strikes me as kind of funny-little MC&CL swiping a car from the giant PRR. The evidence that I have that the car was on the MC&CL before WWII is the date of the photo at http://donross.railspot.com/mccl104.jpg
which is dated as August 4, 1937. I realize that dates are sometimes wrong.... Another piece of evidence is the continued presence of arch-bar trucks on this car. Wren't Arch-bars banned from interchange in 1941? These flats had realtively high loading capacity for their time. They were clearly special purpose cars. Wouldn't PRR have swapped out the arch-bars for something a little more road-worthy well before WWII? Also if the MC&CL was looking for freight car to use as a basis for a snowplow (to be purchased) why did they not buy one off of the four railroads that they interchanged with?

A lot of questions for a rather modest little car!

Have a Good Day
Paul Kattner
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


Re: Gun Flats

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

Paul and list,

There's a problem with a PRR F23 being acquired by the MC&CL before
WWII. All six Class F23 cars were still in service on the PRR as late
as 10-1-1952 according to internal PRR reports on file in the PA State
Archives. One was dropped from the roster during the month of October
1952. It seems unlikely that anyone could have pulled a LaSalle &
Bureau County-type theft and have hidden the car for over 11 years while
the Pennsy continued to carry it on the books. That sort of thing
happened in Penn Central days. If the car is a PRR F23, it was probably
acquired in the 50's.

Bob Johnson


Paul Kattner wrote:


The MC&CL (Mason City and Clear Lake) flat is usually located at the
Iowa Traction Railroad shops in Emery, Iowa which is half way between
Mason City & Clear Lake. this railroad is notable as being one of
three common carrier freight railroads still using 600 volt DC
overhead wires. It has a small fleet of Baldwin-Westinghouse
Steeplecab 50 & 60 ton locomotives. The F23 flatcar still has its
heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle &
Bureau County style) before WWII. From the late 60's to a couple of
years ago, this car sported a large platform for working on the
overhead wire. This platform was removed and mounted on one of the
other IATR flats. The cities of Mason City and Clear Lak, Iowa are
located at the Junction of U.S. Highway 18 & Interstate 35 in North
Central, Iowa.


Re: Gun Flats

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

Byron and list,

While I agree that F22 had a wood floor and F23 had a steel floor, I do
not agree that F23 was a gun car and F22 was not. All known issues of
PRR's "Classification of Cars" show F22 as a flat car with center plate
for twin loads and F23 as a flat car with steel floor. From photos we
know that the center plate was often removed from F22 cars.

Although one can't necessarily trust the listings in ORER's, it's
interesting to note that from 1913 through 1968 Class F23 was listed as
a Flat Car of MCB or AAR Mechanical Designation FM - never as a gun car.

The F22 cars built for PRR Lines East (435287-435400) were first listed
in the ORER in 1913 as Flat Cars, MCB FM. In 1914 this was changed to
Gun & Flat, still MCB FM. By 1916 the description had been revised to
Flat & Gun, still MCB FM. In 1924 the MCB Designation was changed to
FG. The Flat & Gun description with MCB FG lasted into 1967. By 1968
it was changed to Flat, but the AAR designation was still FG.

Oddly enough, the F22 cars built for Lines West (925526-925535) used a
different description. Like the other cars, they started as Flat Cars,
MCB FM. Starting in 1924 they were described as Gun Cars, but still MCB
FM. The MCB designation was changed to FG in 1925. The description was
changed to Flat, Gun in 1927 with MCB FG. This remained in effect
through 1967. There are lots of photos of pairs of F22 cars carrying
large caliber gun barrels, not published, unfortunately.

Bob Johnson


byronrose@juno.com wrote:

I'll spare you a long history of my research on the FMs, F22s, and F23s,
which BTW are all related, by saying that the MDC 30 foot flatcar is a
good stand-in for the F22. The F23 is whole 'nuther ball game. I think
that converting any model of the F22 to an F23 will be a rather difficult
proposition. The top deck of the F22s was wood boards, like most flat
cars. These cars were not considered gun cars but were used as typical
flats, only shorter. One common use was as idler cars next to mill
gondolas with loads hanging out beyond their dropped doors. The F23s
were the gun cars and had a flat riveted plate steel surface which was
tucked under the rolled top edge of the car sides. Loads on these cars
were either bolted thru the deck or welded to it. I haven't been able to
come up with a way to model it yet, even if I had an F-22 to start with,
which I won't have until RailWorks or Sunshine or Bowser or I make a
model of it.


Re: Gun Flats

Bob Johnson <bobjohnson@...>
 

Richard and list,

Regarding the trucks on PRR Class F22 and F23 flat cars, I agree with
Richard's comments about the appearance of the cast trucks. However,
there was no such class as 2DF4. PRR truck classification was a five
character system. The class was 2D-F4. The dash was not optional. It
meant the truck was equipped with standard ARA (later AAR) axles. A
number in the third position meant a deviation from standard.

All 124 F22 cars and all 6 F23 cars were built (in 1913) with arch bar
trucks of Class 2E1F1. These trucks had 5'-7" wheelbase and Number 8A
axles. The nominal capacity was 75 tons.

Beginning in 1924, the nominal capacity of some of the cars began to be
increased to 95 tons, presumably by change of trucks. All six F23 cars
were 95 ton by the end of 1925, but it took until early 1930 for all the
F22 cars to be so equipped. I don't know what truck class was used for
the early conversions. PRR truck classification drawing D70003B shows
Class 2F-F1 crown cast steel trucks as applied to F22 and F23 built
after 3-16-15. However, no F22 or F23 cars were built after 1913, so
this must have been an intention that was never carried out.
Furthermore, a note on a subsequent truck classification drawing
(D74604F 2-6-1929) states "F22 and F23 with 2F-F1 trucks have been
crossed off on account of this class of truck having never been applied
to these cars."

Drawing D74604G indicates that truck class 2F-F2 has been added for F22
and F23 and class 2E1F1 has been crossed off as of 12-16-29. Class
2F-F2 is the cast steel truck Richard described. It had a 5'-8"
wheelbase. A later truck classification drawing (C422800A 11-11-40)
shows that Class 2F-F2 could be equipped with either coil springs as
Richard described or with coil-elliptic springs. These latter had a
leaf or elliptic spring between the outer sets of coil springs. Photos
show both styles of springs in use.

Bob Johnson


Richard Hendrickson wrote:


Paul, I have only one photo of these cars, showing PRR 435362 in the early
1940s, and it isn't loaded. However, the cast steel trucks are clearly
shown; they're basically a heavy duty, six-spring version of the PRR 2DF4
(or ARA Type Y). Probably the closest model truck in HO (not very close)
is the Eastern Car Works 70 ton truck. You can get a copy of the photo
from Jay Williams, who advertises regularly in Mainline Modeler as Big Four
Graphics. And I agree that the Tichy 100 ton arch bar truck is as close as
you're going get in HO scale to original trucks with which these cars were
delivered.


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Truck Swing.5.xls
Uploaded by : Dick.Harley@wdc.com
Description : Data for truck clearance on HO models

You can access this file at the URL

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Regards,

Dick.Harley@wdc.com


UP coal out of Utah

Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
 

The recent post (which I deleted in error please excuse me) I believe sed UP
did not load Utah coal in the 50's. But it did haul Utah Coal, loaded on
the Utah Ry, to Southern California for steel making. I can't check
now/here, but I believe the Utah Coal Route fleet of GS gons was 50% owned
by UP/URy. Probable routing : URy over Soldier Summit, to UP at Provo,
Leamington Cutoff to the LA&SL mainline


Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Group,

My apologies. My note on the scans was intended only for John Nierich.
Oops. Anyway, the rest of you might find them interesting, though they
are a bit out of this group's era.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff


Re: 38 foot IL Commonwealth pulpwood cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

You will find a scan of the Southern heavy duty flat car, and two of SP
Commonwealth wood racks, mounted blind on my web site. Please copy them
onto your own machine, rather than just linking to my images. My
employer gives me limited disk space, and I will have to take them down
as soon as you let me know you have them safely copied. They are at:

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/sou349012.jpg

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/spmw7055.jpg

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/spmw7105.jpg

I hope they aren't too dark. They looked a lot lighter on my Mac at
home. Feel free to adjust the contrast as you see fit. If these are
really too dark for you, I will play with them some more and remount.

The Southern flat was photographed in Charlottesville, Virginia, circa
1987. SPMW 7055 was taken at Roseville, California in April 1998. SPMW
7105 was also found at Roseville in May 1994. I was the photographer of
all three pictures. You are welcome to use these on your web site, or
for any other non-commercial purpose, as you see fit. Credit would be
appreciated, but is not required.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: Gun Flats

Jack Priller <Gndlfstram@...>
 

--- In STMFC@egroups.com, "Paul Kattner" <paulkattner@h...> wrote:
The F23 flatcar still has its
heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle &
Bureau County style) before WWII.

Thanks for the Info!
Paul Kattner
Have a spare set of LS&BC decals, as well as my membership in the
LaSalle & Bureau County Model Railroad Club. Need any boxcars? Got
any spare pantographs?


Jack "The trolley nut" Priller
Honorable Association of Good Guys and Irreverent Souls
"To comfort the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable."


Re: Gun Flats

Stafford F. Swain <sswain@...>
 

. . and while you are there (assuming you are a 1950s R'nR fan like myself and two other listers I know of - right Al and Tony), check out the Surf Ball Room in Clear Lake which is famous as being the venue that Holly, Valens and the Bopper played in just before getting a ride with the wrong plane/pilot in the wee morning hours of Feb. 3/59.

>
I'm glad to hear that there is one of these still extant. I may
have to
make a pilgrimage this summer. Can you tell me what and where the
MC&CL
is?
The MC&CL (Mason City and Clear Lake) flat is usually located at the
Iowa Traction Railroad shops in Emery, Iowa which is half way between
Mason City & Clear Lake. this railroad is notable as being one of
three common carrier freight railroads still using 600 volt DC
overhead wires. It has a small fleet of Baldwin-Westinghouse
Steeplecab 50 & 60 ton locomotives. The F23 flatcar still has its
heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle &
Bureau County style) before WWII. From the late 60's to a couple of
years ago, this car sported a large platform for working on the
overhead wire. This platform was removed and mounted on one of the
other IATR flats. The cities of Mason City and Clear Lak, Iowa are
located at the Junction of U.S. Highway 18 & Interstate 35 in North
Central, Iowa.

And remember that you can't put a trolley pole on a Pennsy flat,
you have
to use a pantograph.

Byron Rose
Funny

Thanks for the Info!
Paul Kattner



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Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@total.net


Re: Gun Flats

Paul Kattner
 


I'm glad to hear that there is one of these still extant. I may
have to
make a pilgrimage this summer. Can you tell me what and where the
MC&CL
is?
The MC&CL (Mason City and Clear Lake) flat is usually located at the
Iowa Traction Railroad shops in Emery, Iowa which is half way between
Mason City & Clear Lake. this railroad is notable as being one of
three common carrier freight railroads still using 600 volt DC
overhead wires. It has a small fleet of Baldwin-Westinghouse
Steeplecab 50 & 60 ton locomotives. The F23 flatcar still has its
heavy duty Archbar trucks and was acquired (alledgedly LaSalle &
Bureau County style) before WWII. From the late 60's to a couple of
years ago, this car sported a large platform for working on the
overhead wire. This platform was removed and mounted on one of the
other IATR flats. The cities of Mason City and Clear Lak, Iowa are
located at the Junction of U.S. Highway 18 & Interstate 35 in North
Central, Iowa.

And remember that you can't put a trolley pole on a Pennsy flat,
you have
to use a pantograph.

Byron Rose
Funny

Thanks for the Info!
Paul Kattner

180721 - 180740 of 181060