Date   

Re: SFRD slogans

thompson@...
 

Byron Rose asked:
BTW, what does all that www stuff after your name mean?
If you gotta ask, Byron, I doubt I can explain it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Loose ends

lawrence jackman <ljack70117@...>
 

I know the UPRR and AT&SF did carry the things needed to
repair hot boxes. The only thing they could not do is change
the wheel set if the journal was cut. In the case of a cut
journal they would set it out or nurse it in. A hot train
would set it out and a local would pick it up and nurse it
in. The SF local from Enterprise Ks picked up a caboose,
whoop, excuse me, a way car with a cut journal and nursed it
into Emporia. When they arrived, the conductor told the
cartoad about it. They did nothing. About an hour later
there was a orange glow at the west end of the eastbound
yard. The yard master was on the speakers telling the east
bound yard crew to stop what they were doing and reach in to
track number ( I do not remember the number) and pull the
burning way car up to the yard office as the fire dept. was
on their way. The hot box was the one under the tool locker
and the wood floor was oil soaked from the years of use. The
Way car was gutted.
If a hot box is set out, the train crew had to pull the
packing and make sure the fire was out.
When I was working at Topeka Ks on the UPRR a CRI&P east
bound passenger train came to town and made the station
stop. The rear brake man dropped off and stood about 10
yards behind the train. The rear journal on the rear truck
of the rear pullman was hot and on fire. When the train was
read to depart the rear man gave a high ball and the train
started to leave. The UPRR switch tender ran for the phone
and called the tower east of town and told the operator what
was happening and he set a red board on him. The UPRR
dispatcher called the CRI&P yard master and made him send a
switch engine over and pull the train back to their yard and
fix things. If he had been allowed to go they would probably
have scattered that train all over the place before the got
to KC.
So every road had their own way of handling a hot box. I
know first hand the UPRR and AT&SF carried tools to make
repairs when needed.
Thank you
Larry Jackman


Richard Hendrickson wrote:


I asked a conductor friend about a couple of questions that s


Re: Loose ends

Richard Hendrickson
 

I asked a conductor friend about a couple of questions that were
brought up on this group.
1) Back in plain bearing days did you repair hot boxes on site? Answer,
We didn't carry the equipment....
True, no doubt, on many RRs. But out west, where freight trains ran
hundreds of miles in a day and it was often a long way between sidings,
spare brasses and suitable jacks were routinely carried in caboose tool
boxes. On the Santa Fe (and, I'm pretty sure, the UP and SP as well), the
equipment necessary to replace brasses was part of the inventory on every
caboose, and conductors were responsible for making sure it was there
before every trip.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Hi All

Richard Hendrickson
 

Hi All

I am new to the group.I am Bill, 39, a Slobbering Pennsy Fraek and an
S Scaler. I am glad to see that "discussions" about frieght car color
is not just a SPF thing. I am very interested in freight cars. Check
out my website if you like X-29s. www.pennsysmodels.com
Gee, we already have one Bill on the list who's an SPF. But at least he
doesn't model in S scale. How many S scalers do we have now? I know of
Jeff English and Earl Tuson, and it seems to me there's at least one other.
I'm not sure there are many more S scalers than that in the whole world
(excluding tinplaters, of course). And how can anyone "like" X29s? What
can you say in favor of a box car design where ALL the bodies rusted out at
the eaves? Still, there were so many of 'em that we've got to model the
damned things. Thank God for Red Caboose.

Seriously, Bill, welcome aboard. Welcome to the list where everyone KNOWS
what color 1940s Pennsy oxide red was (but unlike some of the
self-appointed PRR experts, we're modest about it).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: M&StL freight cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard thought Gene, Joe and I could do an M&StL freight car book. I
know I'm not capable of that. But, I can put together a clinic. Richard,
how about I ask Martin if Mike Moore and I could do something at
Naperville next fall? We would use two screens, show a prototype photo
on one and a model on the other. Mike would tell what we know about the
prototype car and I would talk about the models. Sound OK?
Sounds like a great idea to me, Clark. Go for it!

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


M&StL freight cars

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Richard thought Gene, Joe and I could do an M&StL freight car book. I
know I'm not capable of that. But, I can put together a clinic. Richard,
how about I ask Martin if Mike Moore and I could do something at
Naperville next fall? We would use two screens, show a prototype photo
on one and a model on the other. Mike would tell what we know about the
prototype car and I would talk about the models. Sound OK?
Clark


Hi All

Bill <billlane@...>
 

Hi All

I am new to the group.I am Bill, 39, a Slobbering Pennsy Fraek and an
S Scaler. I am glad to see that "discussions" about frieght car color
is not just a SPF thing. I am very interested in freight cars. Check
out my website if you like X-29s. www.pennsysmodels.com

Thanks
Bill


Re: Freight Car Colors

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Cranstone [mailto:lamontc@...]

From: Ted Culotta <ted_culotta@...>
By the way, I don't put too much stock in exact color
matches. 1,000 cars in a given series built by/for a
specific road probably had color variances right out
of the shops. Couple that with the fact that some
wintered in Minnesota while others got rained on in
Pittsburgh (no acid in the rain there in the 1940's,
huh?) while another spent the better part of the
winter in Florida... and all this is just for one
winter. The variance between two cars that came out
of the shops at the same time is staggering. Just
show some variety in your weathering and call it a
day.
I'll second Ted on this one -- super-accurate colours are probably only
important if you're modelling a brand-new (or freshly repainted)
car. After a year or two, they've probably started to fade or weather to
the
point that spending too much time matching the base colour exactly is a
bit
of a waste of time.
Here's where I gotta toss in my two cents -- it is important to understand
what the base color was. Jeff Aley is correct in asserting color is
objective and that includes what the car looks like a year or five or thirty
years after a paint job. I've seen color photos of nearly new WP boxcars
and the same for the same car family years later -- the base color is
fundamentally the same. There is the difference of tints and shades (that
is to say the addition of relatively color neutral black or white), but the
base is still there. I've received some tips on blending floquil paints to
match WP cars and having used them can say the result captures the objective
fairly well. It's not exact -- it never will be and for a small object
under artificial light it shouldn't be -- but it's not too red, or too
yellow or too green. In essense, I accept I can never get an *exact* match
but can get close enough to make it worthwhile. In contrast, take the brown
from Bowser's X-31 kit as an example: it has far too much green and far too
little red to approximate any possible intrepretation of PRR freight car red
and no amount of tint or shade will fix it. It's fundamentally the wrong
brown.

Another example, a scanned photo and IIRC, a paint mix of floquils roof
brown and caboose red:
R G B
PHOTO WPMW 0245 145 102 107
SPRAY rb+cr 144 67 68

now if I could have added a drop of this:
SPRAY ComArt Ultramarine 59 111 125

I might have been close enough, tho I suspect a tad dark -- the eye of
course being the final judge.

So for me the approach is start from the firm ground whenever possible but
don't get hung up on trying to acheive the impossible.

Dave Nelson


Re: Digest Number 341

Bernd Schroeder <schroeder.bears@...>
 

--- In STMFC@y..., Michael WWW Seitz <mikefrommontana@j...> wrote:
But, by the by..... Are there retailers who stocks the RP
Cyclopedia? I keep seeing a growing need for me to get a hold of
them.


Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

I usually get the RPCYCs from Caboose Hobbies...wherever I am in the
world



Bernd

somewhere in Germany


Re: Freight Car Colors

Ian Cranstone
 

From: Ted Culotta <ted_culotta@...>
By the way, I don't put too much stock in exact color
matches. 1,000 cars in a given series built by/for a
specific road probably had color variances right out
of the shops. Couple that with the fact that some
wintered in Minnesota while others got rained on in
Pittsburgh (no acid in the rain there in the 1940's,
huh?) while another spent the better part of the
winter in Florida... and all this is just for one
winter. The variance between two cars that came out
of the shops at the same time is staggering. Just
show some variety in your weathering and call it a
day.
I'll second Ted on this one -- super-accurate colours are probably only
important if you're modelling a brand-new (or freshly repainted) car. After
a year or two, they've probably started to fade or weather to the point that
spending too much time matching the base colour exactly is a bit of a waste
of time.

I don't know that I can agree with the theory of paint variance with cars
right out of the shops though. Canadian National had some pretty strict
standards regarding colour during the steam era, and even in today's
any-old-boxcar-red will do era, a batch of cars right out of the shop is
pretty consistent. For that matter, the ones from CN's shops are pretty
consistent colour-wise, it's just that there are a lot more outside shops
performing this kind of work as well, and they don't tend to use standard CN
colours.

Don't forget also that our layout lighting tends to be a different
temperature than outdoors -- and usually a whole lot dimmer to boot. As a
result, the colours that we might have spent a lot of time carefully
matching might not look right anyways.

All in all, I think Ted's last line really summed up the most important
aspect of all.

--
Ian Cranstone
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@... (note change: was lamontc@...)


Loose ends

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

The local modelers/railfans here get together every month or so. Last
night I said to Soph Marty, "You're having fun with your new scanner
aren't you." His answer was an enthusiastic yes! He went on to say "That
guy out in Oregon is even writing back to tell me all about the freight
cars! He seems to be all excited over them?" Soph's into O scale narrow
gauge, so he has trouble understanding.

I asked a conductor friend about a couple of questions that were
brought up on this group.
1) Back in plain bearing days did you repair hot boxes on site? Answer,
We didn't carry the equipment. We had some special lube sticks ( I
forgot the name). After the fire was out we would put several of these (
I forgot the number) in the journal and then drop the car off at the
nearest siding.
Part A) If you were to change the brass on site how big of jacks would
you need? Answer, Not that big, you only were lifting the weight off of
one end of one axle and only enough to slip the old brass out and slide
the new brass in.

2) Where did all the meat reefers actually end up, who were the real
customers? This fella started on the Milw, so he's been involved with
all the major meat packers in the upper midwest. I'll make his very long
and interesting story short. Answer, East. The meat was funneled into
Chicago to the EJ&E, IHB or BRC. These roads would transfer blocks
across town on schedules in a guaranteed time, big recipient was the
NKP. So, Different railroads would gathers meat from different packing
houses (all cars same company). Then block them for the transferring RR
(cars mixed up). These RR's would reblock them again with other RR's
cars before handing them off. Final destination? Large cold storage
facilities east? I'm not done with this question yet!

Freight car colors, I always thought it was strange that there were
never any color discussions on this group, now I now why! I'll will let
a picture talk for me, look at the color of the three cars in the SD
Marty shot of ACY 2126 John posted.

Thanks for your time,
Clark


Re: Freight Car Colors

billd@...
 

Close enough for me!!!

I've used it quite often...not quite right, but then it's pretty close on...and after a short time in the acidic and coal smoke laced atmosphere that was around the railroads during the steam era it quickly got very grimy.

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:21:14 -0800
"Jon Miller" <atsf@...> wrote:
what color IS Pennsy Freight Car Color anyway?<
Floquil zinc cromate primer!



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Re: Freight Car Colors

billd@...
 

Yes, Ben...you really lit it off this time. Not happy with lighting that can of gas on the Pennsy list you gotta make more trouble here!!!! ;-)

Pennsy Freight Car red is about as red as an oxide red probably got...might even be redder than UP's FCR. Of course, during the mid 1950's with the introduction synthetic pigments it grew darker...close to (but NOT) Tuscan Red...(it was browner...)
There are some good pictures in color in several of the PRR theme books...Don Ball's book comes to mind.

Bill Daniels
Tuscan, AZ (:-))

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:48:05 -0500
"Benjamin Hom" <bhom3@...> wrote:
Shawn Beckert wrote:

The thread on freight car colors prompts me to offer this thought:

A really useful book would be one that consists of nothing but
color samples from the freight cars of every railroad that an example
could be found of....


Which brings to mind the following question - what color IS Pennsy
Freight Car Color anyway?


Ben Hom, running for dear life after dumping a 55-gallon drum of
gasoline on the fire...






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Re: Bob's Photos/Prototype Rails

bobgang@...
 

Brock, you tease, is there nothing you won't do to increase registration at
Cocoa? Keep this up and you will have to contract with additional hotels.
Guess I'll have to watch my Christmas spending just so I'll have money for
Cocoa.
Bob Gangwish


Re: Freight Car Colors

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

what color IS Pennsy Freight Car Color anyway?<
Floquil zinc cromate primer!


Bob's Photos/Prototype Rails

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

For those coming to Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach...Jan 11-13...there is a
strong possibility that Bob's Photos will be present. I just got off the
phone with him and he is very interested. He remarked that he really enjoyed
Naperville and this kind of meet is good for him. He also noted that he has
tons of stuff he couldn't get done in time to take to Naperville. Stay
tuned.

Mike Brock


Re: Freight Car Colors

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

My friend, STMFC helper and fellow UP modeler Jeff Aley calmly notes:

Color is NOT subjective. It is not a matter of opinion; color is a
physical property of a physical object. Under a given set of conditions,
an object will reflect incident light at a particular combination of
frequencies. Those frequencies are measureable, quantifiable, and
reproduceable. In short, color is OBJECTIVE.
Since it has been many years since I studied the properties of light...and
even then they didn't make any sense....I hesitate to comment here but,
since facts alone have never stopped me before....the term "incident light"
has whetted my curiosity. Are you referring to sunlight? If so, that's fine.
However, few of us...other than garden railroaders and those using daylight
fluorescent bulbs [ and they don't produce true sunlight ]..... view our
models in sunlight. I still remember carefully mixing some shade of black
and painting it in sunlight only to discover that it appeared rather blue
under fluorescent warm white bulbs. I won't argue that objects don't reflect
sunlight the same way. I do believe, however, that different types of light
produce different appearances from the same paint.


Does the color of light reflected by an object change when the observation
conditions change? Yes, indeed. The color of the incident light (noon vs
late afternoon), the transmission medium (hazy air vs clear air), angle of
incident light & angle of observed light all serve to change the reflected
color. But these do not make the color subjective.
I would also note that an object painted with some "color" and then covered
to some degree by other substances with their own "color" [ dirt ] will
render extremely accurate reproductions of the base "color" pointless. IMO,
of course.

Mike Brock


Re: Freight Car Colors

Schuyler G Larrabee <SGL2@...>
 

John Nehrich wrote:

*snip*

. . . There were a lot of cases where the color shade was changed,
just 6 months apart. One gets the idea that perhaps such and such road
specified a particular brand of paint, due to a sale, etc. (Or changed
due
to some perception, rightly or wrongly, that one brand held up better
under
the weather, and didn't care about the exact shade.)
*'nother snip*

I have a file folder (acquired at some significant expense on eBay) which
documents the repainting of the Erie PA's into two-tone green in the 50's
(at least I'm in the right time period for this list, sorry about the
equipment referenced!). They were delivered in black and yellow, but after
the E8's came, they were repainted to be in the passenger scheme.

Anyway, the documentation was kept, I expect, because they were conducting a
test of different manufacturer's paints. No two locomotives were painted in
the same paint, or at least the same combination of paints. Now, I'm sure
(sort of) that they spec'd the same paint >colors<, but this has served to
convince me that the perceived differences between the way one PA looks in a
color photo vs another PA, is not only due to the differences in light
quality, but also due to differences in the paint itself.

I anticipate turning this information into an article for the ELHS "Diamond"
eventually, and getting into the info in greater depth than I have so far,
but one thing I have noticed is that there are paint manufacturers listed
that certainly are NOT around today.

SGL


Re: In-color -action books....

Dick Harley <Dick.Harley@...>
 

On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Bob Schleicher has been after me to do more of these yard
shots for RMJ, but the problem is that identifying all the cars
is very labor intensive, and I simply haven't had time for it lately.
Of course you know Richard, if you just quit reading and writing to all
these stupid Internet email lists that you would have the time to do some
work (or play).

Cheers,
Dick Harley (still patiently waiting for his PFE photocopies)


Re: Freight Car Colors

Norm Dresner <ndrez@...>
 

Okay, it's my turn: it's a recent scientific observation
(I haven't read the original literature, just the press
releases, so I can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of
this) that there are really two different "types of human
color vision". Any person has one -- and this apparently
doesn't change with age and is (probably) genetic -- of the
two. The differences between them are the way that certain
non-primary colors are perceived. IIRC, there's some
region of the pink-orange spectrum that is seen as pink by
one set and as orange by the other. The experiments were
done by giving subjects color-cards and asked to arrange
them by (again IIRC) similarity.

The whole point of this is that even though the reflective
properties of a surface can be characterized "perfectly",
the human perception of it may vary even under constant
conditions. But ultimately it doesn't matter (at least to
me) whether color is absolute or subjective; what matters
to me is the perception of it in the environments to which
I'm likely to take my models.

Assuming that I paint every, say, PRR box car with the same
color and brand paint, then at least in this small corner
of the world they'll be perceived by me and by visitors as
similar, if not identical which, as has been pointed out,
may not be totally prototypical either, but that's another
matter. I personally believe that too much variation in
the "same" color will look bad regardless of what the PRR
did. (Also, IIRC, there's a big difference in color
perception of an object that's 4 square inches than one
that's several square yards).


Okay, now I'm going for the pills too.

Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight Car Colors


On Nov 16, 3:30pm, John Nehrich wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight Car Colors
Color is so subjective,
Oh, dear. I guess it's diatribe time again (hint: press
delete).

Color is NOT subjective. It is not a matter of opinion;
color is a
physical property of a physical object. Under a given
set of conditions,
an object will reflect incident light at a particular
combination of
frequencies. Those frequencies are measureable,
quantifiable, and
reproduceable. In short, color is OBJECTIVE.

Does the color of light reflected by an object change
when the observation
conditions change? Yes, indeed. The color of the
incident light (noon vs
late afternoon), the transmission medium (hazy air vs
clear air), angle of
incident light & angle of observed light all serve to
change the reflected
color. But these do not make the color subjective.

Okay, I'm done now. It's time for me to take my Valium.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

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