Date   

Re: Consumer Prototype Protection - was Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 24, 10:09pm, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Consumer Prototype Protection
But less information is cheaper,
and as Charlie points out, that tends to dominate the thinking (if
that's not too grand a term) for the decisions many manufacturers make.
So, Tony, I infer that you think it's stupid for manufacturers to allow
such silly things as "cost" to influence their thinking. Given that the
broader MR market will not pay more for a kit just because it has 2 lines
of data at the end of the box, you're talking about increasing cost for a
fixed selling price. Please explain why doing this makes sense to you --
it sure doesn't make sense to me!

Is there some kind of new economics that applies to Horizon Hobbies and
Athearn that does not apply to steel mills and computer chip makers?

Regards,

-Jeff



--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Consumer Prototype Protection

Don Strack <donstrack@...>
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

Manufacturers usually (certainly not always) do have photos,
plans, and roster info: how else do they construct, paint and letter
the models? Is it too much to ask that some of it be passed on? Oh,
heavens no, somebody might not buy something . . . and others WOULD buy
if they knew what they were getting. But less information is cheaper,
and as Charlie points out, that tends to dominate the thinking (if
that's not too grand a term) for the decisions many manufacturers make.
One of the forever mysteries that sticks in my mind was when UPHS did their
GS gondolas as a convention car a couple years ago. The finished car was
furnished in an accurate mix of UP's freight car red, but included unpainted
black ends. The buzz was that this was accurate since they were apparently
delivered with the ends "painted" in freight car cement. More times than I
care to count, I heard and read of inquiries as to a source of paint to
match the unpainted ends with the painted remainder of the car. True, the
model may have been accurate, but no one took the time to say so in the
instructions, or even in a note in UPHS's The Streamliner magazine. Someone
did the research. Why oh why didn't they share it?

Don Strack


Re: Consumer Prototype Protection - was Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Paul Hillman
 

Tony Thompson wrote;

Manufacturers usually (certainly not always) do have photos,
plans, and roster info: how else do they construct, paint and letter
the models? Is it too much to ask that some of it be passed on?

************************************************************************************
That's what I'm saying too. The least they could do is just print,

"Circa 1941" or "First built 1929"

There wouldn't have to be any huge info, really, more than that. Any deeper investigation could then be at the consumer's own quest. But, Westerfield really does an excellent job on era, don't they?

Paul Hillman


Re: Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks for the heads up! I just ordered a kit direct from Walthers...

At 07:13 PM 9/24/2004, you wrote:
Walthers has the Red Caboose F-70-7 in stock as undec kits with SP decals.

Jim Hayes
Portland OR


Re: Consumer Prototype Protection - was Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
I have direct knowledge of the model preparation process and the kind of
documentation that has been suggested would add another
day at least in overhead for each model and would be incomplete in many
instances. Because you have research information on hand to do the model
does not mean that it is in the format necessary to write up a narrative on
the history of the prototype. Often times you are lucky to find enough
pictures of the model you want to do much less have the information or time
to do the detective work of when the prototype was delivered, what the first
use of the scheme was, and how long it lasted.
I can't tell here if Charlie is saying that manufacturers don't HAVE the info, don't want to take the trouble to write it up, or don't want to PUBLISH it. He certainly seems to be saying they don't really want to know the details of the prototype history. But surely they DO have some of it.

How do you verify the correct dates a particular car or paint job (or for
that matter, car number in that paint job) is truly correct for?
Yeah, yeah, research is hell. Paint it however it looks good, right, Charlie?

how reliable do you think any information on the outside of a box over the
full range of manufacturers is going to be?
So tell us again, how good is the information NOW on the end of the box?

Is any manufacturer going to turn over control of their products to
a bunch of volunteers before they are allowed to market them?
Control? Hello? The NMRA might check for accuracy (gasp! mfgrs. fainting all around) but hardly would be able to, or want to, CONTROL anything. Gosh, Charlie, maybe once we get past all these straw men you're throwing up, we can discuss the real issues.
Manufacturers usually (certainly not always) do have photos, plans, and roster info: how else do they construct, paint and letter the models? Is it too much to ask that some of it be passed on? Oh, heavens no, somebody might not buy something . . . and others WOULD buy if they knew what they were getting. But less information is cheaper, and as Charlie points out, that tends to dominate the thinking (if that's not too grand a term) for the decisions many manufacturers make.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Tim O'Connor
 

Ted, I'm fairly sure that was the Series 50. This is a new model,
following the Model B, and the 50 series, chronologically. There
is lots of tractor info online e.g.

http://johnnypopper.com/jdnumb1.shtml

Tim O'Connor

the Deere Series 60 that is being offered is a few years old and Gene
Green made some observations about them on this list. Check the
archives..

Regards, Ted Culotta


F&C kits

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

A gentleman called me today looking for an ex-Yankee Clipper 1924 ARA
standard BAR or B&M box car, now F&C 6551 and 6000/6001, respectively. If
anyone wants to sell one, contact Ed Maskell at 916-801-8310 (he has no
email).
- Al Westerfield


Consumer Prototype Protection - was Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Charlie Vlk
 

The topic of Consumer Prototype Protection comes up now and then. Some in
the NMRA were pushing for such product identification a few years ago.....
they wanted everything to have a California label on it ....even the Atlas
Snap Track Bridges would have to carry a Cooper Rating on the packaging!!
I have direct knowledge of the model preparation process and the kind of
documentation that has been suggested would add another
day at least in overhead for each model and would be incomplete in many
instances. Because you have research information on hand to do the model
does not mean that it is in the format necessary to write up a narrative on
the history of the prototype. Often times you are lucky to find enough
pictures of the model you want to do much less have the information or time
to do the detective work of when the prototype was delivered, what the first
use of the scheme was, and how long it lasted.
The problem is none of this would increase sales and would likely have the
opposite effect.
How do you verify the correct dates a particular car or paint job (or for
that matter, car number in that paint job) is truly correct for? If you are
modeling a particular time and place how can anybody know if the car was
likely to show up there? How many people really care in the greater
marketplace? (remember, Prototype Modelers, while they may be an important
segment, are only a small percentage of sales for most production
companies.
Look at the range of discussions that take place here...in a forum of
experts....with all the digging and research that goes on there are still a
lot of unknowns....
how reliable do you think any information on the outside of a box over the
full range of manufacturers is going to be? Who would police and decide
this? Is any manufacturer going to turn over control of their products to
a bunch of volunteers before they are allowed to market them? No way.
The NMRA does have an important role....which they at one time shared with
the manufacturing community... the establishment and maintenance of
technical interchange standards..... which has been sorely neglected since
the 1950s.
I think that the marketplace is doing a great job of shaping the quality of
product.... and the internet (through forums like this one and those of the
railroad historical societies) are improving the knowledge base for both
modeler and manufacturer.
Charlie Vlk


Re: Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???

Jim or Lisa Hayes <jim-and-lisa@...>
 

Walthers has the Red Caboose F-70-7 in stock as undec kits with SP decals.

Jim Hayes
Portland OR


Athearn's New John Deere Tractors

Edwin C Kirstatter <q1xamacarthur@...>
 

The three HO Athearn John Deere tractors that I have are: Waterloo Boy,
Model "B" and 50 Series. If they have other models out now I haven't
seen them.

In looking in Standard Catalog of Farm Tractors, 1890 to 1960 by
C.H.Wendel published by Krause Pub. I find this information on the above
mentioned tractors.

Waterloo Boy, this would be Type N in production from 1917 - 1924.

Model "B" this is a Row-crop type in production from 1947 - 1952.

50 Series another Row-crop type in production from 1952 - 1956.

All of these would be ideal flat car loads for their era. Be sure you
use AAR Rules that Govern Loading of Commodities On Open Top Cars! You
need to block and tie them down by the rules to be Prototypically
correct! Be sure you leave the specified clearance for the brake wheel.

Edwin C. Kirstatter, B&O Modeler.

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Warped Castings caution re microwave

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Dave, if the old grey castings you have are dark grey, they are the ones filled with metal, and I doubt it would be a safe idea to try to flatten them in the microwave oven. They could easily cause a minature electrical storm in your oven, and probably fry it - not to mention ruining the castings.

Rob Kirkham

Dave
The other method that works with some resins(I don't know about the
older Westerfield resin you have), is to use the micro-wave. 7-9
seconds at a time to heat up the item and let cool.
Pierre Oliver


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

George Hollwedel <georgeloop1338@...>
 

When the N Scale ones came out, I went to goggle and found out the dates. I model 1953 and the 60's are brand new then.



Bob Webber <rswebber@...> wrote:


In a message dated 9/24/2004 2:51:35 PM Central Standard Time,
chris_hillman@... writes:
There should be a NMRMA, (National Model Railroad Manufacturer Association),
if there isn't one, to establish certain principles like that. Or, I only buy
that which does so list it's original production era.

They did all the research to make the model. Why not tell us??
Because if they did put the date on, it might mean fewer sales. Of
course, the fact that there are a lot of folk who won't buy something
without knowing that information should indicate that there is a equal but
opposite reaction to that thinking. But I doubt they even consider that
argument.





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George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883

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John Deere tractors

Larry Smith
 

For those of you who want to know the years of the new John Deere tractors, I would suggest that you go to the 1/87 Vehicle club and ask. From the slight knowledge I have of these tractors, and I do mean slight, two of them look to be former Waterloo Boy tractors which Deere bought and these are pre WW 2 models. The third one looks like the post war tractor. Just my guess.

Larry Smith


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Paul Hillman
 

Paul Hillman wrote;

They did all the research to make the model. Why not tell us, (it's era)??
*************************************************************************************
Response;

Does MRIA cover this sort of thing?

Jerry Michels
*************************************************************************************
Good question Jerry.

They might just be the solution-source.

Older prototypes still exist to this day which modellers can use on their layouts in various ways, but as far as concerns the original era of production, all these myriad manufacturers should have by now figured out that there are MANY modellers who seek era data, especially since railroading has waned, unfortunately, from it's "Glory Years", and many of us wish to recapture the periods of the past (or our youths) when many of these things actually existed in time. (Mission of the STMFC!!??)

I don't see how hard it would be for them to do, and it should be considered an industry standard practice.

Paul Hillman


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Bob Webber <rswebber@...>
 

In a message dated 9/24/2004 2:51:35 PM Central Standard Time,
chris_hillman@... writes:
There should be a NMRMA, (National Model Railroad Manufacturer Association),
if there isn't one, to establish certain principles like that. Or, I only buy
that which does so list it's original production era.

They did all the research to make the model. Why not tell us??
Because if they did put the date on, it might mean fewer sales. Of course, the fact that there are a lot of folk who won't buy something without knowing that information should indicate that there is a equal but opposite reaction to that thinking. But I doubt they even consider that argument.


Re: Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???

BuyGone Treasures <buygone@...>
 

Jason:

The Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society will have them available
for sale in four different road numbers at their annual meeting in Tempe
Arizona next month. They can be purchased at the meet. After the meet all
left over cars if any will go to the business managers office for sale. At
that time they can be purchased mail order.

Paul C. Koehler
President SPH&TS

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Cook [mailto:dhc628@...]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???


Does anyone have any leads on shops that have these in stock and will ship?
I have a friend that's looking for these and has had no luck with anyone
locally. He's interested in the SP cars. Anyone on the west coast have a
good shop that stocks these?

Thanks,
Jason Cook
Fort Wayne, IN



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Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???

Shawn Beckert
 

Bruce's Trains in Sacramento had quite a few of the RTR flatcars a
couple of months ago, you might try them. Central Coast Trains in
Atascadero, CA stocks the kits and can special order as well. I just
picked up eight of them from there.

Note: Red Caboose is shipping their "6-Pack" kits in one big oblong
box, with all the parts in little baggies. It'll take days to separate
out all the parts for one car. ;-)

Shawn Beckert

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Cook [mailto:dhc628@...]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:44 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???



Does anyone have any leads on shops that have these in stock and will
ship? I have a friend that's looking for these and has had no luck
with anyone locally. He's interested in the SP cars. Anyone on the
west coast have a good shop that stocks these?

Thanks,
Jason Cook
Fort Wayne, IN





Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Paul Hillman
 

--- asychis@...<mailto:asychis@...> wrote:

These will make excellent loads. I can't wait to
find out what years they represent.

***************************************************************************************
This is something which I've been wanting to see for a long time, that model manufacturers would always state the era of the prototype which they have modelled, instead of leaving it up to the potential consumer to determine.

Some models do contain those era-descriptions, but it would be nice if they all did.

There should be a NMRMA, (National Model Railroad Manufacturer Association), if there isn't one, to establish certain principles like that. Or, I only buy that which does so list it's original production era.

They did all the research to make the model. Why not tell us??

Paul Hillman


Shops with Red Caboose SP R-70-7???

Jason C
 

Does anyone have any leads on shops that have these in stock and will
ship? I have a friend that's looking for these and has had no luck
with anyone locally. He's interested in the SP cars. Anyone on the
west coast have a good shop that stocks these?

Thanks,
Jason Cook
Fort Wayne, IN


Re: Athearn's new John Deere Tractors

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

True, true. I remember the Walthers resin trucks with decals that had to be
spliced together...
--
Brian Ehni

From: "ljack70117@..." <ljack70117@...>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:27:39 -0400
To: <STMFC@...>
Cc: Brian Ehni <behni@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Athearn's new John Deere Tractors


On Friday, September 24, 2004, at 02:24 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

And again, Deere has been doing this for many years now; they didn't
just
recently decide to shut the barn door.
--
Brian Ehni
Same goes for UPS. They just don't let any one use their's. Even their
package trucks are their own design and are protected.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
If love is blind, why do we speak of love at first sight?

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