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Mikes form of Consumer Prototype Protection

Greg Martin
 

Mike Brock sez...

Gene Green summarized, I think, the discussion about research/info quite well. I would add the following:
I've noticed that buyers of whatever model are attracted to the model by the amount and quality of detail present.<
The best observation and the strongest point that I have read during this thread was just made by Mike. WE as buyers, regardless of ability, look for detail and respect quality and that is what brings most modelers to the plate and often back for seconds. We make this the main course and all the rest is dessert!

The accuracy of such details really only apply to buyers that practice RPMing...whether they know it or not. IOW, an individual examining a model of something may actually be aware and interested in the prototype even though the individual may not be planning to put it in its prototypical setting. Regardless, detail wins.<
He draws us back the the main point, and I agree that we that consider ourselves RPMers accuracy become the desert and I might add that, what we realize as inaccurate we take into consideration but look to overcome with our knowledge or network of knowledge to correct the issue...

Potential purchasers are also attracted to a model if information regarding it is present. Hence, I'm impressed by the P2K booklet included with its steam locos even though I'm already familiar with the locomotives. The point is that such information gives the potential buyer an impression that the manufacturer is both aware of the prototype and has gone to the trouble to research it.<
This is true in principal but we may also buy even if the manufacturer doesn't offer the "gift" as we have done our research prior.

Does this mean that all manufacturers should include such material? Nope. Just that those that do may strengthen their sales potential. IMO.<
True, but reality is that most manufacturers target a broader audience and don't take this step. this is why some producers fall from favor...

I would also note that manufacturers are rather sensitive to potential products that they might be planning...for good reasons. Hence, a manufacturer is placed in the dilemma of not broadcasting a new model until it is significantly far enough in development to avoid being beaten to the finish line.<
Yikes, I see this way to often and I think the practice is bogus! I would rather lock them all in a room for two days and let them play monopoly with projects as their own silence creates duplication of products and lost research dollars, CAD development and tooling dollars. It happened most recently with the B&O M-53 car. I would prefer to have one good RS3, GP-38/38-2 then splintered buyers. I think that is one point we try to make by having the modeler/manufacturer forum at Cocoa Beach...

At the same time, manufacturers may need to obtain info that they don't have. In that case, they must rely on individuals for such and the process must, necessarily, remain hidden. For that reason, a manufacturer going public on the STMFC when a product is being considered may not be realistic.
Mike Brock<

Again, Mike and All I am an advocate that the manufacturer develop a research network that can work with individuals as well as Historical societies, thus they can get the accurate information necessary to produce products we can trust are as accurate as possible and provide them with the best ROI the industry can create for them. You see many of us really do want to see them be successful and healthy. We are often handed a project that is too far along to insure that this happens. This was the case with one upcoming project that I am familiar with. A group of modelers (you know who you are) identified a potential problem just prior to release and this group of fellows was faced with focusing on what we could correct and not with what we could have made better from the onset of the project. I would like to believe that we concerned modelers can have an impact on the health of the industry so we might reap the spoils as well. I believe that to be at least part of the mission of the PRRT&HS Modeling Committee, driven by Elden Gatwood, over-seen by Al Buchan, assisted by Bob Johnson and directed by the help from fellows like Ben Hom, Bruce Smith, and many more you might not be quite as familiar with... It simply amazes me to see these guys pull together on a single project...

Just my attitude on the issue.

Greg Martin


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:
"It certainly does away with the old modeler "rule of thumb" of 50% home
road, 25% primary connecting road, 10% "secondary" connecting road etc
. . . . a rule that never made sense to me, but which I heard quoted at
a clinic at our local club a few months back as being a "pretty good"
way to determine the make up of a car fleet."


Another one of those bloody modeler's myths that just won't die...

". . . and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads
of these things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV."

It could have been hauling coal, which they mostly did on the L&N.


Ben Hom


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

cf5250 wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote

Some customers on the Rutland may have received Pocahontas Coal,
but the routing was rail to the Hampton Roads, and then by ship to
either New York, Albany, Boston or another New England port where
it would be transshipped into a hopper owned by either a home road
in the port. This is the reason that both the B&M and New Haven
owned hoppers.
Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!
Tim,

Perhaps the largest receiver of coal via tidewater was the EF&G's Gas Works in Everett. No coal, however, was transshipped there. Rather, coke was a byproduct of the process, and that was shipped via the B&A and B&M to, primarily, New England Coal & Coke outlets throughout New England. Prince's NORFOLK & WESTERN has some 1945 photos of the EF&G.

A typical coal facility in New England would be quite similar to Sheepscot's kit of the Cat's Head Pier. The Mystic Terminal had at least three of these, albeit larger, to transship coal. Most of the coal was unloaded and carried by either a tram or a bridge to piles from where the coal was loaded into coal cars - B&M did not own their first hoppers until 1929; drop bottom gons were used instead.

Principal New England Coal Ports were in New Haven, Allyn Point, Providence, New Bedford, Boston, Portsmouth, Cape Porpoise, Portland and Searsport. Other ports receiving coal, mostly from "schooner barges," in Cos Cob, Bridgeport, Hartford, Stonington, Martha's Vineyard, Plymouth, Lynn, Gloucester, Newburyport, Haverhill on the Merrimac, and probably others.

In the 1920's, more than half of the coal including both anthracite and bituminous arriving in New England came from Tidewater either from New York Bay, Philadelphia, the Hampton Roads and Baltimore. With the improvements in freight service made in the 1920's, all of the anthracite except some for the southern New England (south of Cape Cod) ports had all-rail routings by 1940. The only bituminous arriving in New England via tidewater was from the Hampton Roads in the late 1930's. During WW II because of the U-boat threat and the shortage of shipping (the colliers had been diverted to carrying coal overseas), much of the bituminous coal from the Pocahontas fields in southern West Virginia was brought to the Jersey side of the Hudson where it was transshipped into barges and snuck up through Long Island Sound & the Cape Cod Canal. All-rail routing from the Pocahontas fields to New England would have meant a 21 day round trip (vs. the 14 day RT to NJ) which would have stretched the supply of hoppers considerably. Barges were used to reduce the possibility of a hopper shortage.

After WW II, colliers returned to the Hampton Roads - New England trade with the SEAM class colliers built on spec by the Federal Maritime Commission. Today, the Boston Edison plant receives coal via tidewater although the rail connection is not used.

Hope this helps answer your question, Tim Gilbert


Re: Consumer Prototype Protection

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Harman wrote:
Well I think we all agree that it certainly can't hurt. While a glossy
booklet may not be practical with every model, I don't see how accurate box
labeling can hurt anything. Or cost anything, since the box has to have a
label anyway. Even just doing as much as Red Caboose puts on their box car
labels is more than most will bother with.
Well, no, we don't all agree: Charlie Vlk and Jeff Aley think it will bankrupt the manufacturers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: CV Local Freight -- Back to STMFC

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Scott Pitzer wrote:
FWIW, the 3rd car in the train seems to be Canadian Pacific (is it a compass
or something in the slogan on the right side? I don't have my CDS catalog
handy.)

The "Spans the World" banner has a compass rose surrounded by a ship,
airplane, and train, and was used on boxcars and reefers 1947-1951.


Ben Hom


DDV

up4479
 

I've used DDV on brass and plastic, factory paint. acrylics, Scalecoat, Floquil, and who knows what else? Never had a problem. Thinned 30-40% with pure turps. Baked on brass. Many years later these projects look the same as the day I painted them. Great for hiding decal film.

Steve Solombrino
http://qwesteferral.com/r.jsp?a=BlJ@3SrGx4lfVU541Lz2HA$$&x


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Richard Townsend
 

Searsport, Maine for one, with a big transshipment facility. It is still there and just improved. See http://www.maineports.com/water_searsport.html

"cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!



--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced.
Not N&W, but CGW wrecked a pair of VGN class H-6 hoppers on 5-4-31.

David Thompson


Re: Metal running boards on NYC

Jeff Coleman
 

--- In STMFC@..., Scott Pitzer <scottp459@e...> wrote:
Would a 1954 NYC box car with black ends and roof (72000 series)
have an unpainted metal running board? If so, I suppose the contrast
with the roof would become less noticeable as years passed...

Scott Pitzer
Scott, I would think if the running board was unpainted it was
galvanized. It would have darkened some over the years reducing the
contrast a little.
Jeff Coleman


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Tim O'Connor
 

... and that L&N gon really has me puzzled. L&N had scads of these
things, but there weren't any steel mills anywhere near the CV.
Marty, perhaps some consumer in New England used pig iron? Billets?
Much iron/steel was shipped in intermediate forms to consumers who
only had to heat or roll it into another form. Did the CV serve
any foundries?

Another possibility is utility poles. Nice, straight poles made of
Southern pine? Once the car was "snagged" off line, it may spend a
little time wandering before going back home. I recall Schuyler
reported seeing an Erie gondola that got snagged by the B&M and
kept cycling back and forth from a scrap dealer on the B&M to
somewhere else, and back again.


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Tim O'Connor
 

I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI, MONON (composite types), WABASH,
LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other lines. As of yet no photos of N&W
hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced. That might be because
N&W hoppers operated on a tightly controlled movement from mine to
ship and never wandered much off line.
More likely it has something to do with the grade of coal mined
along the N&W... N&W cars definitely did go off line, especially to
customers requiring high grade metallurgical coal. Along the lines
of what you wrote above, I have seen pictures of C&O hoppers in Iowa
and Reading hoppers in Wisconsin. And yes, an N&W hopper in Montana
on the Milwaukee Road...

Like the C&O, the N&W had both huge eastbound and westbound volumes
of coal. It didn't all go down to Norfolk! In West Virginia along
either road it was (and is) common for loaded coal trains to pass
in opposite directions.

Tim O'Connor


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim Gilbert wrote

Some customers on the Rutland may have received Pocahontas Coal,
but the routing was rail to the Hampton Roads, and then by ship to
either New York, Albany, Boston or another New England port where
it would be transshipped into a hopper owned by either a home road
in the port. This is the reason that both the B&M and New Haven
owned hoppers.
Tim, what kind of facilities existed (and where) in New England for
transloading of coal from ships to rail? I'm just curious. I know
that even today there is some bulk oil reloading into rail cars from
barges, as well as cement transloading.

New England could receive West Virginia coal directly via the New
York Central's intrusion into C&O territory... that is probably
another reason why C&O cars were so rare in New England. And the
N&W too, for the same reason. Not that the N&W needed the extra
business!


Re: New Athearn 50' box cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Len, Athearn acquired the Details West freight cars and Railpower
Products locomotive shells and truck trailers some time ago. Horizon
recently acquired Athearn, and then absorbed Model Die Casting into
the Athearn company. They have already announced a release of many
MDC cars in their Ready To Roll lineup. Many of these cars are not
the least bit accurate representations of the prototype, so beware!

Tim O'Connor

After examining the new Athearn model, and while installing Kadee #5
couplers, I happened to notice something very interesting. It
appears that this new Athearn model is in fact identical to the
Details West car, in every detail.

Len Cannor


Re: CV Local Freight -- Back to STMFC

pieter_roos <pieter.roos@...>
 

I agree, that car looks to me like a CPR "minibox" with "Spans the
World" herald. The boxcar directly behind the locomotive might have
M&StL "The Peoria Gateway" lettering.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., Scott Pitzer <scottp459@e...> wrote:
FWIW, the 3rd car in the train seems to be Canadian Pacific (is it a
compass or something in the slogan on the right side? I don't have my
CDS catalog handy.)
The 6th car has that Reading look, to me anyway.
Scott Pitzer


Metal running boards on NYC

Scott Pitzer
 

Would a 1954 NYC box car with black ends and roof (72000 series) have an unpainted metal running board? If so, I suppose the contrast with the roof would become less noticeable as years passed...

Scott Pitzer


Re: CV Local Freight -- Back to STMFC

Scott Pitzer
 

FWIW, the 3rd car in the train seems to be Canadian Pacific (is it a compass or something in the slogan on the right side? I don't have my CDS catalog handy.)
The 6th car has that Reading look, to me anyway.
Scott Pitzer
=======

-----Original Message-----
From: Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
Sent: Sep 30, 2004 11:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: CV Local Freight -- Back to STMFC

Nah, not different heights -- just different thicknesses of washers
between the bolster and trucks <g>

Marty





Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: New Athearn 50' box cars

Jason C
 

--- Len <lcannor@...> wrote:

Gents,
I just purchased an Athearn 50'plug door box,
decorated for the
Milw. It is a beautiful model for the money, and is
of the mid to
late sixties era too. Not too new, and not too old.
Although I model
the Rutland, in its late green and yellow years, I
do often allow
myself to fall off the wagon, and buy cars not quite
within my time
line. I do this because I like them, and besides
that, very few
visitors to my pike really know the differance, even
know I do. I
think they call that "Model railroaders license".

After examining the new Athearn model, and while
installing Kadee #5
couplers, I happened to notice something very
interesting. It
appears that this new Athearn model is in fact
identical to the
Details West car, in every detail. Is it possible
that Athearn, or
should I say Horizon, has aquired these models too?
Anyone know
about this for sure?

Len Cannor
Morgantown,PA
Len,

Athearn did just that a couple of years ago. I
believe they announced it at the big show in Rosemont
right around this time in 2002 when they also
announced the Railpower aquisition. This happened
before the Horizon deal.

Jason Cook



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New Athearn 50' box cars

Len
 

Gents,
I just purchased an Athearn 50'plug door box, decorated for the
Milw. It is a beautiful model for the money, and is of the mid to
late sixties era too. Not too new, and not too old. Although I model
the Rutland, in its late green and yellow years, I do often allow
myself to fall off the wagon, and buy cars not quite within my time
line. I do this because I like them, and besides that, very few
visitors to my pike really know the differance, even know I do. I
think they call that "Model railroaders license".

After examining the new Athearn model, and while installing Kadee #5
couplers, I happened to notice something very interesting. It
appears that this new Athearn model is in fact identical to the
Details West car, in every detail. Is it possible that Athearn, or
should I say Horizon, has aquired these models too? Anyone know
about this for sure?

Len Cannor
Morgantown,PA


Re: C&I Hoppers Getting around -- CV Local Freight

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Thomas Baker wrote:

Tim, your analysis of hopper car interchange fits pretty well with what I have been able to find out about hoppers used by the Chicago Great Western for loading ore from the open-pit mines near Ostrander in southern Minnesota. The CGW hardly ever used ore jennies. Instead, the company used its own hoppers as well as hoppers from foreign roads. By the Mid-Fifties it was anyone's guess whose hoppers would show up at McIntire, Iowa. I have seen photos of C&I, C&EI, MONON (composite types), WABASH, LV, GN, NP, NYC, and many other lines. As of yet no photos of N&W hoppers in southern Minnesota have surfaced. That might be because N&W hoppers operated on a tightly controlled movement from mine to ship and never wandered much off line.
Tom,

1) I would assume that the C&I, C&EI, MONON, WAB, NP and NYC hoppers arrived on the CGW with coal mined in the southern Indiana and Illinois soft coal belts. Thus, CGW's reloading them with ore made sense to the degree they could reduce the amount of non-revenue producing empty car miles.
2) I don't know whether the LV carried anthracite to a dealer on the CGW or was a "leaker" with southern IN or IL bituminous; still, the reloading with ore reduced empty car miles.
3) More than quite a few N&W hoppers did wander off-line, but they could not be loaded on the CGW without violating Car Service Bureau's Order C-411. In 1956, 33,607 (76.3%) of the total daily average of freight cars on N&W (44,051 cars) were home road owned. On 12/31/1956, the total number of open top hoppers that the N&W was 44,991 which was 101.0% of the total cars on line (44,051). This meant that at least 11,384 of N&W's hoppers were off-line (44,991 hoppers owned less 36,607 N&W cars at home). The N&W also had 9,911 boxcars, 276 flat cars, 296 stock cars, 4,388 gondolas, 749 covered hoppers , 443 racks and 48 "other types" of which some of them were at home. In all, the N&W owned 60,302 cars on 12/31/1956 which was 136.9% of the total number of cars on line.

Most roads owned less cars than were on their lines. Privately owned reefers and tank cars was the prime reason for this. The N&W, however, was an exception. Most of the reason for this exception was due to the inability of the N&W to have a supply of empty hoppers at the mineheads without the enforcement of Car Order C-411. Compared to Boxcars, Hoppers were somewhat one-dimensional in the variety of commodities they could carry, and there was not much demand for ore at the N&W's mines.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: Question about swapping trucks between freight cars

Andy Carlson
 

The very same tank car frame is one of 3 cars that the
Portola museum announced this week it is scrapping.
Sacramento envy at work...
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:


The Museum at Portola, CA has the underframe of a
Union Pacific tank car
with the tank removed which affords excellent views
of its 70 ton National
B-1 trucks.

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