Date   

Re: M&STL Green

Joe Binish <joebinish@...>
 

Tim et al,
When new, only the 4000s were black/green. After '52, SOME of the 53000s
were repainted grren overall(not underframes, I would guess).
Cash's website www.eldora.net/lyndon has a couple of photos (I think) of the
53's in green.
Joe Binish


Re: M&STL Green

Thomas Baker
 

Some of the 53000-series cars were also repainted in the green, but I do not know how many.

Tom

________________________________

From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Thu 11/18/2004 1:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] M&STL Green




Marty McGuirk wrote

Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis &
St Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted
lettering?

Marty, as far as I have been able to figure out the only M&StL cars
painted green were the 4000-5398 series built in 1952 -- this is
available as a kit from Sunshine. I have not been able to find a
good color photo of a new car -- I have seen models painted mostly
a dark green, similar but lighter than C&NW green.

Many commercial models have been made using the 1937 car body, but
like I said I have never seen a picture of one in green. I'd love
to know if any of them were actually painted green. By the late
1950's M&StL began repainting cars a bright red color!


Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they
come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different
group of cars?





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Re: M&STL Green

Thomas Baker
 

Marty,

Back in the day when the original All-Nation was producing O-gauge box car kits, I bought an M&StL green car. Of course, the roof was wrong as were the ends, but the color was dead on as far as my eye could tell: It seemed to match precisely the color found on the prototypes. To match this color, All-Nation suggested Floquil "Weyerhouser Green," a color probably unavailable to day. I added a few drops of yellow and thought the match pretty good. My view is that the green shade came from the box cars--fifty footers--with the Evans name on them. Of course, the views vary and Gene Green is your man.

Tom

________________________________

From: Marty McGuirk [mailto:mac@...]
Sent: Thu 11/18/2004 12:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] M&STL Green




Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis & St
Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted
lettering?

Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they
come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different
group of cars?

Thanks,

Marty





Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: M&STL Green

BuyGone Treasures <buygone@...>
 

Tim:

What is the Sunshine kit number? Thanks

Paul C. Koehler

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timboconnor@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 10:13 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] M&STL Green


Marty McGuirk wrote

Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis & St
Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted
lettering?

Marty, as far as I have been able to figure out the only M&StL cars painted
green were the 4000-5398 series built in 1952 -- this is available as a kit
from Sunshine. I have not been able to find a good color photo of a new car
-- I have seen models painted mostly a dark green, similar but lighter than
C&NW green.

Many commercial models have been made using the 1937 car body, but like I
said I have never seen a picture of one in green. I'd love to know if any of
them were actually painted green. By the late 1950's M&StL began repainting
cars a bright red color!


Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they
come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different
group of cars?



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Re: M&STL Green

Tim O'Connor
 

The M&StL received three more orders of all-steel 1937 AAR 10'-0" IH
box cars from GATC in box car red. All three orders differed in that
one order had BCR roofs, another black and a third galvanized if
memory serves. I can look this up if it is important to anyone.
Gene I am interested in the roofs. Do you have brake and running
board info for them too?


The cars done for CNWHS by Red Caboose represented 53000 series cars
which were originally painted BCR but after the arrival of the
1952 'green' cars, some 53000s were repainted all green.

Do you know of any published photos of the 53000s in green? I saw
a letter in CNWHS V.20/4 that seems to imply only the 4000's were
painted green.

Tim


Re: M&STL Green

Gene Green <lgreen@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:
Marty McGuirk wrote

Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis
&
St Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted
lettering?

Marty, as far as I have been able to figure out the only M&StL cars
painted green were the 4000-5398 series built in 1952 -- this is
available as a kit from Sunshine. I have not been able to find a
good color photo of a new car -- I have seen models painted mostly
a dark green, similar but lighter than C&NW green.

Many commercial models have been made using the 1937 car body, but
like I said I have never seen a picture of one in green. I'd love
to know if any of them were actually painted green. By the late
1950's M&StL began repainting cars a bright red color!

Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR --
did they come in both colors, or would the BCR have been
a repaint or different group of cars?
--------------------------------------
The slanted 'THE PEORIA GATEWAY' slogan was introduced in 1937. The
slogan had to be moved from the door to the side just right of the
door for the first order of all-steel 1937 AAR 10'-0" IH box cars
from Pullman-Standard because of the difficulty of stenciling on
corrugated doors.

The M&StL received three more orders of all-steel 1937 AAR 10'-0" IH
box cars from GATC in box car red. All three orders differed in that
one order had BCR roofs, another black and a third galvanized if
memory serves. I can look this up if it is important to anyone.

The cars done for CNWHS by Red Caboose represented 53000 series cars
which were originally painted BCR but after the arrival of the
1952 'green' cars, some 53000s were repainted all green.

The 'green' 1952 cars were actually all black (according to the GATC
specifications) except for green sides. All stenciling was white
except for yellow on the sides. Color slides exist of the cars in
the 4000 series in all the black except for the sides green paint and
also all green.

I have samples of the correct green and yellow directly from du Pont
should anyone desire a really close color match. My favorite formula
for the green is 4 parts Floquil dark green and one part Santa Fe
blue.

The M&StL never met a paint color it didn't like. You name your
color, I'll be I can come up with some piece of rolling stock in that
color. Any color name that is also the name of a fruit or flower
doesn't count.
Gene Green


Re: Quad hopper ID

Bill Darnaby
 

I would suggest that you contact Craig Presler, c.presler@... ,
who is the freight car guy at the museum in Noblesville, IN. If he doesn't
know for sure he can find out if the cars are indeed aluminum.

Bill Darnaby


Chris Barkan wrote:
The original post on these described them as "steel cars" painted
silver.
Are they actually painted, or maybe that is their unfinished color?
Tony, do
you know if the originals were painted or ran "naked". Also, if the
current
location in Indiana could be repeated, it may not be that far away
from me. I
might be interested in a look myself.
Chet French sent me a scan of a photo he took, and the car sure
looks like it has a lot of rust streaks down the sides. He stated that
the photo was taken four years ago.
The various Alcoa demo cars for which I have photos all are in
natural aluminum. In fact, the Alcoa PR materials identify the
corrosion resistance as one of the advantages of aluminum.
Someone should certainly check on this car, but the French
photo sure makes me think it is a steel car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





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Re: M&STL Green

Tim O'Connor
 

Marty McGuirk wrote

Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis &
St Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted
lettering?

Marty, as far as I have been able to figure out the only M&StL cars
painted green were the 4000-5398 series built in 1952 -- this is
available as a kit from Sunshine. I have not been able to find a
good color photo of a new car -- I have seen models painted mostly
a dark green, similar but lighter than C&NW green.

Many commercial models have been made using the 1937 car body, but
like I said I have never seen a picture of one in green. I'd love
to know if any of them were actually painted green. By the late
1950's M&StL began repainting cars a bright red color!


Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they
come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different
group of cars?


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

Tim O'Connor
 

The two cars look more like 1937 AAR box cars than anything else
except for an odd looking end. Would the IMWX/Red Caboose box car
be the correct starting point for a model of 477636?

Gene, according to my notes, CN 474000-477849 all had S-corner ends
and FLAT riveted roofs. The end styles were

474000-475299 unknown
475300-475999 NSC-1 ends
476625-477349 NSC-2 ends
477350-477849 unknown

So it appears that you have discovered one of my "unknown" ends on
477636. The NSC designations are from modelers -- Dan Kirlin used to
make them and now they are available from Sylvan Scale Models. The
easiest way to model them now is to use the Intermountain 1937 box
car, because it has separate ends and roof.

References RMJ 6/1993, RMC 8/1993. There are also Richard Yaremko
books on Canadian box cars. Volumes 1, 2, and 2A cover CN 40 foot
cars.

I'd appreciate your scans please!

Tim O.


The photos appear to show metal running boards. Does anyone know if
that is indeed correct and, if so, what kind of running board? Which
hand brake was used? Can't tell from the photos.
Are these odd ends available?
Has there been any magazine articles on modeling these cars?
I can send scans of these two photos to anyone who can advise me.
Gene Green


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

Ian Cranstone
 

On 18-Nov-04, at 10:19 AM, Gene Green wrote:

Need some help concerning Canadian National box cars. On January
17, 1949 CN XM 477636 was on the M&StL hauling paper.
I recently acquired one photo each of CN 474917, blt 6-38, and CN
475831, blt 7-38, which are both from the same CN series as 477636,
namely 471000-477849 as listed in Jan. 1942 ORER.
Actually these three cars are from different series: 477350-477949 were built by Canadian Car & Foundry in 5-6/39 (477636 was built in June --
and should you be interested, was renumbered to 425604 in August 1974). The two photos you have are from the 474600-475299 series, built by Eastern Car Co. 5-7/38, and from the 475300-475999 series, built by National Steel Car in 5-6/39.

The two cars look more like 1937 AAR box cars than anything else
except for an odd looking end. Would the IMWX/Red Caboose box car be
the correct starting point for a model of 477636?
As I recall, these early CCF cars were fairly easy to model from the IMWX boxcar, with few things needing to be done. See more below under your detail question.

The photos appear to show metal running boards. Does anyone know if
that is indeed correct and, if so, what kind of running board? Which
hand brake was used? Can't tell from the photos.
I've taken the following notes from Stafford Swain's CN LINES study:

The ends applied to these cars were Standard Railway Equipment's Dreadnaught end with square corner posts (a 4-5 end, counting from the top).

The roof is a flat panel "Murphy" roof with car line ribs, which Stafford describes as "not unlike those found in the former Train Miniatures line of cars." These parts have subsequently been cast in resin (see more below).

Running boards were the three-board design. The brake step however was of a steel mesh design.

The doors were an early Youngstown design, with Camel fixtures (like the IMWX model).

The brake wheel is of an Ajax design.

These cars were equipped with the standard Canadian eight-rung ladder (instead of the U.S. seven rung design). Stafford notes that these rungs were spaced at 15.75".

Poling pockets need to be removed from the model.

Top-mounted cut levers were used on these cars.

One unusual detail of this series is that cars 477350-477649 (including your 477636) were originally delivered with National B-1 trucks.

Are these odd ends available?
Various Canadian ends, doors and roofs were released some years ago under the name of the Canadian Model Railway Parts Guild (read Dan Kirlin & Stafford Swain). Subsequently the masters for these parts were transferred to Sylvan Scale Models and many have been re-released under their line -- check their website for availability.

Has there been any magazine articles on modeling these cars?
Yes, Stafford Swain published his first study of CN 40' steel boxcars in the pages of CN LINES vol. 3 no. 4 back in 1991. The article was then updated and published in RMC in (I believe) their August 1993 issue.

As a final note, I have a number of builder's photos of these cars which I could send to anyone interested.

Ian & Katherina Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: M&STL Green

Richard Hendrickson
 

Marty McGuirk writes:

....I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they
come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different
group of cars?
You're right, Marty. When that slogan was introduced in the mid-`40s, it
was on mineral red cars with white lettering; the green/yellow P/L scheme
didn't appear, IIRC, until the early 1950s. Gene Green can probably quote
exact dates.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Quad hopper ID

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Chris Barkan wrote:
The original post on these described them as "steel cars" painted silver.
Are they actually painted, or maybe that is their unfinished color? Tony, do
you know if the originals were painted or ran "naked". Also, if the current
location in Indiana could be repeated, it may not be that far away from me. I
might be interested in a look myself.
Chet French sent me a scan of a photo he took, and the car sure looks like it has a lot of rust streaks down the sides. He stated that the photo was taken four years ago.
The various Alcoa demo cars for which I have photos all are in natural aluminum. In fact, the Alcoa PR materials identify the corrosion resistance as one of the advantages of aluminum.
Someone should certainly check on this car, but the French photo sure makes me think it is a steel car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Quad hopper ID

Ted Schnepf <railsunl@foxvalley.net> <railsunl@...>
 

Hi Bill,

I just looked at my slides, and there appears to be some rust spots mid panel (not around any connection points). Maybe it is not rust, but corrosion of some sort from abuse to the side panel?

I must admit I did not realize I might have been looking at an aluminum car. The clam shell doors is what got my attention. The Wabash SS auto boxes were a find as I am building two urethane models of those cars.

Ted



At 07:52 PM 11/17/04 -0600, you wrote:

These cars, along with a number of Wabash single sheathed boxcars, were on
the property of Alcoa Aluminum in Lafayette for years. I remember seeing
them during my Purdue years in the late '60's. I believe them to be
demonstrator aluminum cars built for Alcoa in the 1930's that were never
sold or caught on with the railroads. When Alcoa got rid of the their
freight car collection the museum ended up with most of them. One did end
up in private hands and is on display and painted Monon outside a quarry
about 6 miles north of Monon on US421. It was sublettered for Ward
quarries, the same guy who has the new museum north of Monon, until he sold
the quarry to, I believe, Material Service.

Bill Darnaby
Ted Schnepf
railsunl@...


M&STL Green

Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
 

Does anyone out there have a match color they like for Minneapolis & St Louis 1937 AAR green boxcars with the "Peoria Gateway" slanted lettering?

Although, I'd swear I've seen pics of these cars in BCR -- did they come in both colors, or would the BCR have been a repaint or different group of cars?

Thanks,

Marty


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gene Green" <lgreen@e...> wrote:

Need some help concerning Canandian National box cars. On January
17, 1949 CN XM 477636 was on the M&StL hauling paper.
I recently acquired one photo each of CN 474917, blt 6-38, and CN
475831, blt 7-38, which are both from the same CN series as 477636,
namely 471000-477849 as listed in Jan. 1942 ORER.
The two cars look more like 1937 AAR box cars than anything else
except for an odd looking end. Would the IMWX/Red Caboose box car
be
the correct starting point for a model of 477636?
The photos appear to show metal running boards. Does anyone know
if
that is indeed correct and, if so, what kind of running board?
Which
hand brake was used? Can't tell from the photos.
Are these odd ends available?
Has there been any magazine articles on modeling these cars?
I can send scans of these two photos to anyone who can advise me.
Gene Green
Gene,
Everything you need to know about how to model these and other CN 40'
boxcars is covered in an article written by Stafford Swain in RMC. I
can't recall exactly when the articles were published but Stafford
seems to think circa 1994. I will confirm that when I get home later
tonight.
As to the ends, they are available now from Sylvan Scale Models,
http://www.isp.on.ca/Sylvan/
As are correct roofs and end walks. You will also want to look into 8
rung ladders with integral stirrups. Des Plaines Hobbies retails
plastic replacemenst which fit the Red Caboose kits very nicely.
I've done a number of conversions of these cars. It's a really fun
project!
Pierre Oliver
http://www.elgincarshops.com/


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

Marty McGuirk <mac@...>
 

Gene,

Stafford Swain did an article for one of the mags on the entire family of CN 1937 AAR boxcars for one of the mags (RMC I believe) several years ago -- and he did a much more in depth series (two or three articles if I recall) for CN Lines as well -- in addition he prepared a very well researched piece on paint and lettering schemes that ran in CN Lines.

The ends you're curious about are no doubt one of the "NSC" ends --
these came in several styles. All -- not just the so-called "NSC-1" were made available as cast resin parts to fit the IMX 1937 boxcar by a company called "Canadian Scale Replicas" (I may be a little off on the company name) -- Stafford either made or was involved in making the masters -- those masters and molds are now owned and the parts are marketed by Sylvan Scale Models.

Speaking of the NSC ends, has anyone run across any literature stating what, if any, "brand name" National Steel used for these? "NSC-1" NSC-2" etc. is the shorthand Stafford and Dan Kirlin used to describe them, but I'm not sure the company actually called them by those names -- have never been able to find otherwise.

If you want I'll be glad to check and see exactly which NSC end (and roof) belong on the cars you mentioned. I don't have my copies of CN Lines here at the office, but I'll be going home at lunch.

Marty


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ben Hom wrote:
"Both these cars had flat panel roofs vice instead of the more
familiar rectangular panel roof."

BTW, Sylvan also carries the roofs:
Flat Panel Murphy Roof, Part No. DP-0047


Ben Hom


Re: CN box car series 471000-477849

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Gene Green asked:
"I recently acquired one photo each of CN 474917, blt 6-38, and CN
475831, blt 7-38, which are both from the same CN series as 477636,
namely 471000-477849 as listed in Jan. 1942 ORER.
The two cars look more like 1937 AAR box cars than anything else
except for an odd looking end. Would the IMWX/Red Caboose box car
be the correct starting point for a model of 477636?"

Yes, but be careful with the ORER information for these cars as the
ORER entry for CN 471000-477849 lumps together several lots of cars
with different details, so model from a photo if you can. According
to information from John Nehrich on the RPI website, CN 474917 had
4/5 square corner Dreadnaught ends; CN 475831 has NSC-1 ends
(nicknamed by some modelers "Canadian basketweave"). Both these
cars had flat panel roofs vice instead of the more familiar
rectangular panel roof.


"The photos appear to show metal running boards. Does anyone know
if that is indeed correct and, if so, what kind of running board?"

According to Ed Hawkins' table on Ted Culotta's website,
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/1937aarpdfmain.html
these cars were originally built with wood running boards.


"Which hand brake was used? Can't tell from the photos."

CN 474917 - Universal
CN 475831 - Ajax


"Are these odd ends available?"

The 10 ft IH NSC-1 ends are available from Sylvan Scale Models (Part
number DP-0036):
http://www.isp.on.ca/Sylvan/detail.htm


"Has there been any magazine articles on modeling these cars?"

See Stafford Swain's "Canadian National's 1937 AAR Design 40-foot
Steel Boxcars" in the August 1993 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman.


Ben Hom


CN box car series 471000-477849

Gene Green <lgreen@...>
 

Need some help concerning Canandian National box cars. On January
17, 1949 CN XM 477636 was on the M&StL hauling paper.
I recently acquired one photo each of CN 474917, blt 6-38, and CN
475831, blt 7-38, which are both from the same CN series as 477636,
namely 471000-477849 as listed in Jan. 1942 ORER.
The two cars look more like 1937 AAR box cars than anything else
except for an odd looking end. Would the IMWX/Red Caboose box car be
the correct starting point for a model of 477636?
The photos appear to show metal running boards. Does anyone know if
that is indeed correct and, if so, what kind of running board? Which
hand brake was used? Can't tell from the photos.
Are these odd ends available?
Has there been any magazine articles on modeling these cars?
I can send scans of these two photos to anyone who can advise me.
Gene Green


duplicate email

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Mike - Please delete me from the email address westerfield@.... - Al Westerfield

161061 - 161080 of 196824