Date   

Re: Freight Tariffs

Schuyler Larrabee
 

NOIBN

Not
Otherwise
Identified
By
Name


SGL


Re: Freight Tariffs

Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
 

I was there last summer when there was a case where someone was looking up a tariff for a case and literally the ONLY place they could find the answer was the CRRM - not Northwestern, not the Archives, not CARRM, no where. So people do come in and ask - but very seldom.

At 09:14 PM 1/3/2005, you wrote:

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


M&StL Superior handbrake

Tim O'Connor
 

This photo shows the Superior brake wheel... in 1974

http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38234879



Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts 01564


hi

SD9E@...
 

stuff about you?


Freight Tariffs

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I would like to advocate that no matter what, the tariff materials not be sent to the local landfill. I am not sure freight car modellers will ever care about these documents, but they might.

While I have no strong desire to master the subject, I think tariff's are a potentially important source of info that could be used to analyse the transportation of goods throughout North American and even globally.

Its a vast subject, and to date my only reading on it has related to the tariff's controlling traffic moving on railways within Canada. Disputes over tariffs were taken first to the Board of Railway Commissioners of Canada (later, "Transport Commissioners") for determination. Some of their decisions were the subject of judicial review by the superior Courts. Others were appealed up through the appellate Courts. These Canadian tariff cases often made the news - either the daily press or in industrial publications. Some became the subject of Royal Commissions or inquiries. All of this means written descriptions of who wanted what; who said what; etc. In other words, these decisions provide lengthy descriptions of railway traffic and the business folks affected by it. In my experience these discussions are a useful (if hard to access) source of info about market conditions and places and industries served by rail. I am sure there were equivalent bodies in the United States during our era, and perhaps this is old news to many on this list.

What I've noted from reading these cases is that often quirky rates were set that made little sense apart from the broader economic and political context. So for anyone who wishes to expend the effort to learn about and understand tariffs, the quirks and the changes to the tariffs over time can provide helpful clues about broader issues. I expect this will include information about rail service to industry - information relevant to the movement of freight cars.

The study of such things probably belongs more to economic historians than modellers, but we modellers benefit from this type of research. Remember that historians tend to do research where there is date to be researched. So I suggest that preserving this sort of information is fairly important. Long term, I know.

Just my two cents.

Rob Kirkham
We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum.

Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems
tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Re: Freight Tariffs

Greg Martin
 

The Chineese math is that the rates are figured in per hundred weight.

And Frank explained the NOIBN quite well. The old tariffs are intersting and do help if your industry is listed... otherwise...

Greg Martin


Re: Is this a Type 27 tank car?

Richard Hendrickson
 

From Tim O'Connor:

http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38235338

It's interesting I could find no record of the above car
in the 1965 or 1972 ORER, but the car is stenciled for the
1960's and the photo dates from 1974.
No, it was an 8K gal. Type 21 built in 6/25. Though it was last reweighed
in 6/66, the paint job was quite recent when the car was photographed in
1974 (though the Reichhold Chemicals stenciling was already wearing off).
Like General American, Shippers Car Line tended to renumber cars when they
were assigned to specific shippers on a long-term basis, as in this case,
presumably for accounting purposes. I'll bet this car was listed in the
ORERs in '73 or '74.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Freight Tariffs

Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

NOIBN is Not Otherwise Indicated By Name.
Frank Brua

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Green
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 5:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight Tariffs



Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what
they were so I could write a description.

When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese
arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model
railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958.

One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a
list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement,
showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms
receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under
official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale
weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing
agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'."

States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana,
Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included
are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood,
cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar,
beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper,
acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the
Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain
products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate
rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there
throughout and I have no idea what it means.)

Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving
livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies
receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough
that good scans should result in case anyone is interested.

My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to
modeling?

Gene Green






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Is this a Type 27 tank car?

Tim O'Connor
 

http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38235338

It's interesting I could find no record of the above car
in the 1965 or 1972 ORER, but the car is stenciled for the
1960's and the photo dates from 1974.



Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts 01564


Railway and Locomotive Historical Society

Bruce
 

Does anyone on the list belong to the Railway and
Locomotive Historical Society? I believe their home
base is in Jacksonville, Florida. If you are a member
would you please contact me off list; I am trying to
get some information from one of their newsletters.

Thank you Bruce

=====
Bruce R. Brantner, Sr.
Coyote Trails RR
Coyote Div. of SF RR



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
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Re: Freight Tariffs

DRGW482@...
 

In a message dated 1/3/2005 9:16:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
raildata@... writes:

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for
archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO



I think they are actually fun to read... Well, you don't want to read them
as a standard reference book or you'd go nuts! Same with station listings or
shippers guides.

I never knew what people are actually shipping! For folks that really want
to have traffic, they are neat!
Sounds like I'm the only idiot who actually paid money to get two...

Several years ago only a few people knew what ORERs are about. Now you buy
them on CDs. Sanborn maps... how many folks used them for railroad research 10
years ago? Car Builders Cyclopedias. Even 10 years ago I purchased several
for under significantly $100. Watch the prices go for them on Ebay...

The tariffs are not nearly as informative as the stuff listed above, but
it's part of the whole picture...

Martin


Freight Tariffs

Gene Green <lgreen@...>
 

Included in a lot of stuff I bought on eBay was a bunch of
supplements to Freight Tariffs. At first I was just going to throw
them away but then I thought I'd put them on eBay and see what they
would bring. Today I thumbed through them to get an idea of what
they were so I could write a description.

When I first glanced at them they looked as indecipherable as Chinese
arithmetic but perhaps these things have some use for a model
railroader. Most are dated 1956, 1957 or 1958.

One item, dated July 1, 1965, sure to be of interest "contains a
list of firms receiving carload shipments under weight agreement,
showing commodities covered. Also, a list of stations and firms
receiving carload shipments of grain, seeds, soybeans, etc. under
official weight status in order to avoid unnecessary track scale
weighing, waybills covering such shipments should be noted by issuing
agent: 'Do not weight, Destination Weights applicable'."

States included are Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana,
Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana,
Nebraska, New Mexico, North and South Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Commodities included
are grain and related articles, iron or steel scrap, pulpwood,
cotton, cottonseed, hides, pelts, tallow, wool, beets, raw sugar,
beans & peas, ores & concentrates, dried vegetables, scrap paper,
acid & gases, logs, fibres (sic) and more. To give an example, the
Ralston Purina Co. In Iowa Falls, Iowa receives grain, grain
products, soybeans, feed, limestone, molasses NOIBN, oils, phosphate
rock and tallow but not livestock. (NOIBN occurs here and there
throughout and I have no idea what it means.)

Section 2 lists only those stations and companies receiving
livestock. Section 3 lists only those stations and companies
receiving grain and related products. This 1965 item is clean enough
that good scans should result in case anyone is interested.

My question is, is there anyone in this group who has experience
using Freight Tariffs either in the real world or as an adjunct to
modeling?

Gene Green


Re: Freight Tariffs

raildata@...
 

No question that the freight traiffs will be preserved in Colo RR Museum.
Question is how many more should we accumulate when already pressed for archival
storage space.

My only point is that we almost never have requests for them.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


Re: photos

Richard Hendrickson
 

I would also be interested in Hershey Reefers. I am new to this group and
have been reading with great interest many of the discussions.

I model the railroad "Ma and Pa" and am interested in obtaining information
during the steam era regarding them as well as any of their predecessor lines
(before 1901).

Hershey foods is a bit out of their area--but still somewhat in their general
vacinity. I did hear once that Broguerville, PA was home to Reeses before
Hershey had purchased it. The website that contained this information is no
longer working. Does anybody know of where I can verify this claim?
Rocky, I have photos of Hershey reefers from several different periods in
their history; what era do you model? Perhaps I should add that the
Hershey cars actually weren't reefers but insulated box cars without ice
bunkers, though they were modified versions of standard NADX reefers built
for North American Car Copr. by the Hegewisch, IL plant of the Pressed
Steel Car Co. The Hershey cars were generally operated by North American on
assigned routes, so they didn't turn up randomly on other lines. For
example, one of those routes was Hershey, PA to Oakdale, CA on the Santa
Fe, where Hershey had a plant that processed bulk chocolate into packaged
products for distribution on the west coast. No doubt Hershey had similar
satellite plants in other parts of the country. Whether and when the
Hershey cars ever traveled to the former Reese plant in Pennsylvania I
don't know.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: SFRB 5800-5999 Rr64

Richard Hendrickson
 

Can anyone point me to a decent shot of Santa Fe RBL series SFRB
5800-5999? Class is Rr64.
Ron, I'm sending as an attachment a JPEG of a photo I shot at Modesto, CA
in 1971.

----------

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Broadway Limited K7A stock car

smithbf@...
 

Tom,

You probably saw my post to PRR-talk, but just in case - as best I know
there is only one set of numbers offered so far. Hopefully we will see
additional 4 packs...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce,

The one question that seems to have escaped everyone is how many numbers
are available from Broadway Limited when you buy more than one
four-pack? So if you buy more than the four cars, does that mean that
you have to scrub the numbers off the rest and renumber them, with the
possibility that you may have to repaint the car?

There seems to be no listing of individual car numbers or groups of
numbers that are available, similar to what was offered with the N&W
H2a
hoppers. Since there has been no H2a Hoppers, either undecorated or
decorated but without numbers made available (even though they are
catalogued), one would sense that it would be prudent to buy the
decorated cars and do your own thing. What are your feelings regarding
this?

The other rumor that I had heard was the Tony wentzel and the fellow who
was the head of QSI are no longer with Broadway Limited. I heard this
from my hobby dealer, but no one knows who is now in charge or if they
were bought out or kicked out by the other backers. Anything on this?

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...










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Re: NY State- Finger Lakes/Southern Tier

cripete <pjboylanboylan@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "PGrace" <pgrace@a...> wrote:
Does anyone know what the main industries were in the Finger Lakes
area
of New York State in the period 1945 - 1955

I am in the process of planning a new club HO American and want to
make sure
that the industries are reasonable....
Patrick Grace

Patrick:
The other replies you have received should be helpful ,
but you should be also aware that this was a region that
produced major amounts of the small arms weaponry ( e.g.
Remington and Ithaca) and was the major source of
edged weaponry used by U.S. Armed Forces.
CAMILLUS, CATTARAUGUS, ONTARIO, QUEEN, and ROBESON were
among the well known cutlers that come to mind.

In Olean, immediately S.W. of the Finger Lake country,
Union Cutlery (Ka-Bar trench knives, among others) and
Aldase Cutlery were producing. The latter had been founded
by Alcoa's domestics division (Wearever pots, et al) and Case
knives to make reasonably priced civilian goods. Case Cutlery,
by the way, was in Bradford, Pennsylvania. This home of
cigarette lighters, specialty glass goods, and the only
railroad company surgeon (ERIE) that held a ticket to
hold down the right hand seat box that he used on weekends,
was just over the hills to the south of the Lake region.
Geneva Forge, and Utica Forge were producing all sorts of
military goods. Oneida Community, makers of table cutery,
knocked out some 210 million serving pieces (a/ks) for WW2.

I do not have everything at finger tips, but recall
some staggering (i.e. to me) figures.
Camillus, for instance, became economically secure as a result
of producing 1/2 million knives and bayonets for the Great
War. We were only in that show for a year and half. The
Watervliet Arsenal, and I presume others, proofed nearly a
quarter million artillery breech blocks made for the Second
World War, by makers in the central New York region.

Local history societies, as well as urban public libraries,
and the academic reference libraries, have books or periodicals
produced after the war by manufacturers that give details of
what they accomplished. Commonly, they have titles such as,
"Wow We Won our E". This refers to the blue and red standards
having a big block letter 'E', given to makers of war materials.
This was for maximal Effort, in fulfilling production goals.

The nature of modern war being what it is, all goods are
war materiale. So every organized form of production, of any
kind, was given incentives. Hence, everybody from Twinky makers
to bulldozer producers, justifiably - could feel part of the
struggle, and could, and did, leave behind an enormous collection
of production details.

Cornell University's library , being
both in the heart of the region and possessing in-depth
regional economic holdings, would be the first place to
start looking for this material. Since you are in England
this will require some phoning and ultimately, going
through a major (probably, academic)library over there to
work out interlibrary loans; if needed.
What you will have in England is copies of the,
"THOMAS REGISTER of MANUFACTURERS and TOP HANDS in ALL LINES",
in the British Museum. They also are going to be
available in various years at major Research Libraries, but
few will have every years because of the tonnage of printed
paper involved. These are annuals issued giving
names and locations of purveyors of processed or manufactured
goods in the United States. In the time frame you are interested in
they are very good for locating production points. Today, because
of: the centralization of producers and a diminution of
their overall numbers; the loss of domestic producers, with
their replacement by importers; and lastly, the
separation of clerical activities directly related to
sales from production sites, the current volumes have little
utility for locating discrete production sites.

Fifty years ago, there are also some discordancies,but
a researcher with some knowledge of the nation will
recognize the major office districts in New York, Chicago,
Philadelphia, and a few other places when they appear in
"THOMAS' REGISTER". Thus, when a producer lists
a Park Avenue,Broad Street, and so forth...form of address
-one can discount these appearances as production nodes.

Manufacturing activity with a strong bias towards both small
firms, and needing proximaty to related producers and
suppliers of materials (such as the fashion clothing industry and
notions making and selling), will require more detailed local
information.

Still, none of these activities are heavy industry
related, and their finished products were users of LCL
and express services, rather than carload. If you
know zilch about an industry , you would be advised
to get the Input-Output tables from the Dept. of Commerce,
for the time period, and the industry that concerns you .
However, that is not what your folks will need to do
to accomplish there ends.

There is one other Finger Lakes related military phenomenon.
Sampson Naval Base on Lake Keuka, was the principal U.S.
Navy boot camp( i.e.basic training base) for the eastern U.S.
So lots of trainloads of once, and future tars, were online
in WW2 through Korean War.
In mid 50s it became a state park.

Good-Luck, Peter Boylan


Re: photos

W.B.
 

--- In STMFC@..., Carrock1998@a... wrote:
I would also be interested in Hershey Reefers. I am new to this
group and
have been reading with great interest many of the discussions.

I model the railroad "Ma and Pa" and am interested in obtaining
information
during the steam era regarding them as well as any of their
predecessor lines
(before 1901).

Hershey foods is a bit out of their area--but still somewhat in
their general
vacinity. I did hear once that Broguerville, PA was home to
Reeses before
Hershey had purchased it. The website that contained this
information is no
longer working. Does anybody know of where I can verify this
claim?


A history of Reeses is available at the following web site:
<http://www.hersheys.com/products/details/reesespeanutbuttercups.asp>



Mr. Westerfield--do you plan on producing the Ma and Pa cars that
you
produced a number of years ago again?

I am learning so much from all of you.

Robert R (Rocky) Jackson



Re: Rolling Resistance Data for selected trucks.

Tim O'Connor
 

... trucks are only a small proportion of the overall mass in
this kind of test as opposed to the tester with only the mass
of the truck.
The Reboxx tester can really only be used to compare the change in
rolling resistance of a particular set of sideframes, with different
wheelsets. It is useless for predicting performance under an actual
model car. I discovered years ago that Kato trucks roll incredibly
well -- until you put a car body on them. They do perform much
better after I replace the wheelsets with Reboxx.

I've been trying to talk my club into building an inclined ramp
with an electronic HO scale speedometer at the bottom. This should
allow fairly accurate car-to-car comparisons regardless of the brand
of trucks and wheels in use.

Tim O.


Re: Freight Tariffs

raildata@...
 

We have a ton of Freight Tariffs at the Colo RR Museum.

Aside from some lawyers who show up once in a while to use them there seems
tob e no obvious use for them or info contained in them.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO

159721 - 159740 of 196865