The question is, did they load cattle in *N&W* hopper cars?<

I believe after processing they did, i.e., bones <VBG>! I'm sure I saw
a load of those going over Sherman, and at night too!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

I asked about the Tichy Commonwealth Express Truck and received no
response. The truck has the bearing inserts and with IM (or Reboxx) .088
wheelsets should roll (off into the sunset)!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Mike Brock wrote:

I have managed to acquire a couple of P2K War Emergency hoppers.... I
notice >that the real CB&Q version lasted for some time...at least one
still with wood >sides as late as '71. I also notice that 398 of the ATSF
cars were still in >service in '53. Richard, I believe you noted that
these cars received steel >replacement sides in '58. Were the cars in
original condition until then?

Yes. Some other RRs began the replacement of wood side sheathing somewhat
earlier (the C&O as early as 1948, as I recall) but most other owners did
it in the late 1950s. Some B&O cars were never re-sheathed, and the Q cars
were given general repairs ca. 1958, including new wood sheathing, and
returned to service in their original form, after which they lasted well
into the 1960s.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Mike Brock wrote (about Hart Selective ballast hoppers):

....it
would not surprise me at anything they put in one of these cars...including
cattle.

The question is, did they load cattle in *N&W* hopper cars?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

I seem to recall that we decided early on to include express reefers as part
of the STMFC's acceptable subjects. Therefore, has anyone examined the new
Tichy Commonwealth Express Truck? While it seems to match that used on PFE
express cars, it looks a bit short in the photo. Of course, this could be
the photo. Anyhow, I'm currently using the Easter Car Works truck and, while
dimensionally correct, it is lacking a few things...which the Tichy truck
appears to have.

Mike Brock

I have managed to acquire a couple of P2K War Emergency hoppers. Sorry if I
missed out on some info...working Prototype Rails dimenished both my limited
brain power and my computer time. Has anyone taken the time to evaluate
these things? I notice that the real CB&Q version lasted for some time...at
least one still with wood sides as late as '71. I also notice that 398 of
the ATSF cars were still in service in '53. Richard, I believe you noted
that these cars received steel replacement sides in '58. Were the cars in
original condition until then?

Mike Brock

We will be at Timonium next week. Anyone wanting us to bring specific kits,
let us know. - Al Westerfield
Westerfield

Richard Hendrickson wrote...it seems about a year ago:

I've never seen any photographic evidence that Hart Selective ballast
hoppers or the similar cars with dump mechanisms by Enterprise and other
mfrs. (which I assume are the cars you're talking about) ever went off
line, regardless of who owned them. So I'm as skeptical as you are.
There's evidence that some RRs (e.g., the UP) sometimes hauled coal in
them,

Actually, from the photographic evidence that's available...and there's a
bunch...UP used these cars quite often to haul coal. Seldom will you see UP
hoppers carrying coal to a coaling tower without side dumping cars in the
group. In fact, in one of Terry Metcalfe's UP Modelers...I think...he
mentioned that, of the 5 or so hoppers present in a photograph, there were
five different variations of hoppers...several being side dumping. In
addition, UP used them to haul sugar beets. This occurred along the Front
Range north of Denver. I'm not really certain about where the beets were
processed...I know damned well it was not on Sherman Hill...so I can't say
for sure where they traveled. Knowing UP during the '40/'50 time period, it
would not surprise me at anything they put in one of these cars...including
cattle. No, no...I have no proof.

Mike Brock

Tom O'Connor asked:

When did B&O start applying the patches along the lower sill?
( About the same time as PRR? ) Would most cars have patches
by the late 50's?

Yes and yes. The photo evidence I have suggests that more patches turned
up earlier on the Pennsy cars because many X29s dated from 1924-'25 whereas
most of the M26 sub-classes dated from the late 1920s/early '30s. However,
patches began to appear on B&O cars before WW II and by the late 1950s
every photo I have of a B&O (or LNE, Erie, PM, MEC, CGW, etc.) ARA steel
box car shows extensive patching of the side sheathing above the sills.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/bo/bo910529as.jpg

When did B&O start applying the patches along the lower sill?
( About the same time as PRR? ) Would most cars have patches
by the late 50's?

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

In answer to John's original question, as far as I know, covered gondolas
were not used for coiled steel service until late in the steam era. The
earliest cars I'm aware of are covered gons on the NKP (Railway Age, June 6,
1955, p30), PRR (Railway Age, Ocy 17, 1955, p39), and P&WV (P&WV 1955
Stockholders Report, p and Worley and Poellet P&WV book, p219).

As far as I know, special purpose cars like the Walthers cushioned coil car
were not built until after the steam era. For example, the James Kinkaid
article in Oct 96 Mainline Modeler describes Evcans cars that were first
built in 1964.

Tin plated steel coils, and many other steel products, were also shipped in
box cars (and even reefers) during the steam era. The following 1966 data is
from the John Moore collection. The numbers in the table are the percentage
distribution of tons shipped, by car types, for the commodity groups listed.
Note that for tin mill products, box cars accounted for 69.5% of the tonnage
shipped, and reefers accounted for 21.7%. I assume that the Tin Mill
Products category includes tin-plated steel coils and probably also includes
galvanized steel coils. The Worley and Poellet P&WV book states that P&WV's
1200 series boxcars, built in 1946 with 8 foot doors, were purchased for
merchandise and steel coil service. (p187)

Box Reefer Gon Flat TOFC
Tin Mill Products 69.5 21.7 6.8 2.0 0
Metal Cans 93.4 1.8 0 0 4.8
Steel Shipping Pails & Barrels 91.3 0 5.8 2.9
Steel Wire 77.5 10.1 0 0 12.4
Iron & Steel Castings 62.9 0 24.5 12.6 0
Iron & Steel Forgings 50.4 0 26.5 23.1 0
Sheet Metal Roofing & Siding 15.9 0 37.2 46.9 0
Metal Tanks 10.3 0 14.3 75.4 0
Iron & Steel Cast Pipe 4.2 2.3 35.5 58.0 0
Metal Construction Materials 3.8 0 90.3 5.9 0
Structural Metal Products 0.6 0 87.2 12.2 0

Larry Kline

Gentlemen,

This post by Mark Hemphill from the DRGW egroups list is very
infomative as to open vs. covered coil cars and hot rolled vs. cold
rolled steel coils.

Mark T. Evans
Anaheim, CA

ORIGINAL MESSAGE - Message No. 9604 from DRGW list at egroups

From: M. W. Hemphill
Date: Mon Jan 31, 2000 6:56pm
Subject: Re: BN Coil Train

Here's some information about coil steel that may clarify some of the
discussion.

1. Covered coil cars vs. open coil cars. Covered cars are used when
the
surface finish of the steel is of great important to the end
consumer. Many
products for which coil steel is used do not require high surface
quality,
for instance, highway guardrails, steel culverts, corrugated steel
sheet,
prefabricated building structural components. Covered coil cars have
a
greater tare than uncovered, have a higher initial cost, and a higher
maintenance cost, so the freight rate is naturally higher for coils
shipped
covered vs. uncovered. An advantage of open coil cars is that the
coils can
be loaded and shipped hot, whereas hot coils shipped in a covered car
may
damage the rubber and plastic components of the air brake system and
even
diminish the structural integrity of the car. Because it is more
economical
for a steel mill to load and ship coil immediately as it comes out of
the
coil box, rather than store it somewhere for a day or so while
cooling,
steel mills greatly prefer to ship in open cars whenever possible.

2. Coil steel is merely sheet steel rolled up for convenience in
shipping.
Sheet steel comes in a broad variety of qualities and prices. Several
messages on this group have mentioned sheet steel being used for
automotive
body parts and appliances. It is indeed, but not all sheet steel has
such
exalted destinies. The steel used for auto bodies and appliance
shells is
cold-rolled from hot-rolled sheet steel, and is just about the highest
quality steel made. It is extremely expensive steel. Just a handful
of
steelmakers in the U.S. even have the technological and manufacturing
capability to make it, for instance, U.S. Steel and Bethlehem Steel,
and the
financial requirements for a combined hot-roll/cold-roll mill
producing this
steel are extremely high -- like in the billion-dollar range.
Recently, the
big steelmakers have begun producing a thinner and much stronger
automotive
sheet steel in order to hold the line against aluminum and plastic
body
components, making the financial requirements for this product line
even
more formidable.

Until about 10 years ago, all hot-rolled sheet steel, even the low-
quality
stuff used for silos, oil tanks, and the like, was made from new steel
manufactured at an integrated steel mill from iron ore and home scrap
(the
leftover steel from the steelmaking process itself). Using
consistent raw
materials allows an integrated mill to achieve great consistency in
its
product, particularly important when the steel's surface quality
(critical
for automotive and appliance applications) is an important
consideration. A
steel mill making its steel entirely from purchased scrap, such as a
minimill (e.g., Nucor at Plymouth, Utah) or midimill (e.g., CF&I)
usually
finds the quality of its scrap far too variable to produce any sheet
steel
product requiring a good surface finish. Minimills usually produce
merchant
bar, reinforcing rod, wire, and light structural products, which are
undemanding products and can be economically produced from a variety
of
scrap feeds. In the last decade a handful of minimills have been
built to
produce hot-rolled coil from scrap, using prompt scrap (the scrap
produced
by metal fabricators, as compared to the obsolete scrap from wrecked
cars,
demolished structures, etc.) to achieve a feed good enough to produce
a
low-quality hot-rolled sheet steel. I am not aware of any minimills
producing autobody-quality sheet steel at this time.

3. Geneva does not produce cold-rolled coil, and to my knowledge
none of
its hot-rolled coil currently feeds any cold-roll mill. Under U.S.
Steel
ownership, Geneva produced hot-rolled coil to feed U.S. Steel's cold-
roll,
galvanizing, and tinplate lines at Pittsburg, California, but I do not
believe any of Pittsburg's cold-rolled steel went to automotive or
appliance
manufacturers. Pittsburg's primary market was California canneries.
Tinplate is a much less demanding product than automotive or appliance
steel. What you are seeing in the BNSF cars is probably not destined
to
become automotive parts or appliances, but more prosaic products.

4. The probable reason eastern road coil cars are more often covered
than
open is because both the auto body fabrication plants and the steel
mills
that supply them are principally at eastern locations, mostly in a
crescent
around the Great Lakes from Chicago into Pennsylvania and New York.

5. CF&I at Pueblo never produced sheet steel products. CF&I was
originally
a rail mill and merchant bar mill, and in the 1950s expanded into
seamless
steel oilfield tubing.

6. No mill in the U.S. continues to use ingot steel (pigs refer to
cast
iron, not steel) to produce steel with the exception of very small
quantities of specialty steel. The preponderance of steel produced
in the
U.S. is continuously-cast. Geneva was the last mill in the U.S.
reliant
both on ingot steel and open hearth (as opposed to basic oxygen)
furnaces.

7. Coils come in a variety of weights. The last information I saw
from
Geneva was that it was producing coils up to 80,000 lbs.

8. Plate is a separate product from coil. It is not coiled. As I
recall
(my books are all packed) the cutoff is about 3/8" in thickness
between
sheet steel and plate steel. Sheet steel is often produced in long
sheets
that are coiled, but quite a bit is shipped flat in sheared lengths.
It
depends upon the consumer's ability to handle coils and their needs --
big
consumers will purchase coils, because they're cheaper, smaller
consumers
will purchase sheets.

For all of you looking for more Troop Sleepers to measure and photograph,
you should take a trip to Alaska. Besides having some of the most
awe-inspiring scenery I know, there must have been at least 50 troop
sleeper cars to be seen between Fairbanks and Anchorage on the Alaska RR
this past summer. There are many varieties, and they are used for all
kinds of things. If you want to see troop sleepers, go there. And the
ARR folks are very friendly too.

Regards,
Dick Harley

As has been alluded to on this list several times, Ed Kaminski's new
book, entitled _The Magor Car Corporation_ is now available. The history of
this company and its extensive carbuilding record, from 1902 to 1973, is
the topic of the book.Books have been shipped to us and are now for sale
(should be in forward-thinking stores soon).
The book has 200 pages, and has 237 photos (a handful in color), most
never before published, along with numerous catalog pages, a production
list, and drawings. I feel safe in saying that it's a serious book for the
freight car enthusiast. The introduction is by Richard Hendrickson.
Price is $55. More information about the book, including the Table of
Contents, can be found on our Web site (URL below).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

At 04:40 PM 1/18/01 -0500, you wrote:

Garth, you saw an assembled ACF type 27 tankcar. Utterly inaccurate
for the SP. IRC could have lettered the 8,000 gallon car as O-50-13.
At least they would have gotten the gallonage correct....

Ooops. Typo. I meant O-50-14.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

Byron,

MR published a drawing of a Troop Sleeper converted to a service car
several years back. I don't have a copy handy for the date but I'm sure
it will surface via some kind soul. The drawings included an excellent
underbody view showing all the structural members and full brake rigging,
both AB sets worth. I'd say it was indispensable to your efforts.

I found it last night...turns out my MR collection goes back that far!

There are more than several troop cars still in existence, at least that
I am aware of. One is at Union Bridge, Maryland, in the WM Hist Soc
collection, an almost virginal car with all its windows intact and riding
on AFC trucks. Another is closer to DC in a small station display along
with other freight and passenger cars and a small steam lokie. It is in
about the same condition as the WMHS car. And one at Illinois Ry Museum.

Thanks for the info! Anyone with photos of these - please post 'em!

How about photos documenting the underframe structure and brake systems?

I will - I already have several photos, but I did not have my flash that
day so they are all a little dark of the underbody detail. The steam lines
are far more intricate than on the troop sleeper in MR.

Bruce, if that's the same Cannonball kit I saw at Mitchells last fall,
why would you waste your time on it? The rivets look like flattened
grapefruit halves and the panel line are non existent. It's almost
criminal that someone capable of producing scale size rivets hasn't done
this car yet. Of course, that statement leaves InterMountain out,
doesn't it? But I have been hearing rumors that it will be produced by a
capable manufacturer in the not to distant future. Let's all hope.

Well, I thought that the cars were "reasonable" and a whole lot cheaper
than brass. Yeah, the rivets are about the size of cheeseburgers, but I
don't have time to scratchbuild those car sides right now...maybe I will in
a couple of years.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ____________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|____________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

What both L-L and InterMountain have found is that if you
build it, they will come.

Don't you mean "if they build it you (the consumer) will come"?

Dave Nelson

Yes, that is what I meant. Apologies for the ambiguity.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Garth, you saw an assembled ACF type 27 tankcar. Utterly inaccurate
for the SP. IRC could have lettered the 8,000 gallon car as O-50-13.
At least they would have gotten the gallonage correct....