Date   

Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Brian Carlson
 

Tim, you are absolutely correct. I may have a source for some Buffalo creek waybills, so I may be able to check. However as Ed pointed out these Buffalo Creek cars surely got around. On may have even gone over Sherman Hill.

They is still one existing example in Hamburg NY, can't recall if it is a PS-1 or AAR car though.

Brian Carlson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Brian, you cannot infer a car's point of origin from its current location.
The car could have been loaded in Minneapolis (another huge milling city)
and sent to San Diego. I have seen photos of many eastern box cars at the
grain port in Duluth/Superior. As Tim Gilbert has pointed out many times,
cars in the 1950's were routinely loaded and sent to destinations in total
disregard of the "rules". For all we know, the "RETURN TO" stencil may
just have been intended as advertising and nothing more. Until someone
comes up with an actual waybill for a carload of wheat flour shipped
3,000 miles I will remain highly skeptical of that distance. I accept it
could happen, but I just am not convinced it happened.


Tim, actually I have a Bob's photo of DL&W 55203, built 3-57 Magor CC, in San Diego at a bakery in April 1957 one month after building. The car is stenciled "RETURN TO BUFFALO FOR FLOUR LOADING." apparently the Buffalo flour cars did get around. Buffalo was the grain milling capital of the world. I admit I don't understand the economics of shipping wheat east by boat the flour west, but it did happen.



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

On Wednesday, January 12, 2005, at 05:53 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Brian, you cannot infer a car's point of origin from its current
location.
The car could have been loaded in Minneapolis (another huge milling
city)
and sent to San Diego. I have seen photos of many eastern box cars at
the
grain port in Duluth/Superior. As Tim Gilbert has pointed out many
times,
cars in the 1950's were routinely loaded and sent to destinations in
total
disregard of the "rules". For all we know, the "RETURN TO" stencil may
just have been intended as advertising and nothing more. Until someone
comes up with an actual waybill for a carload of wheat flour shipped
3,000 miles I will remain highly skeptical of that distance. I accept
it
could happen, but I just am not convinced it happened.
Ed Hawkins noted:


Tim and others interested,
In the "for what it's worth" category, I went through my Buffalo Creek
photos of PS-1s and AC&F-built AAR 40' box cars. Photo dates are
documented from early 1953 to the early 1960s with all but one being no
later than 1956. Locations of the photos are Fort Smith, San Francisco,
Philadelphia, New Haven, Kansas City, and St. Louis. An additional
quantity of photos from Bob Lorenz and Richard Burg collections, many
of them taken by Paul Dunn in Ohio, show a number of examples of BCK
box cars passing through that region. Regardless of where the cars
originated from or their destinations, these cars tended to get around
based on these examples.
Converts! There is no reason why any road's boxcars had the same experiences.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Archiving images

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 12, 2005, at 1:01 PM, ljack70117@... wrote:


OK Do they make this device to work with an I-Mac? Where can I find one.
Thank you
Larry:

Go to www.apple.com and under Store look under Mac Accessories for Storage for Lacie drives.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Bob Webber <rswebber@...>
 

And there's one in West Oakland in 1959 in the stmfph group file area...

Tim and others interested,
In the "for what it's worth" category, I went through my Buffalo Creek
photos of PS-1s and AC&F-built AAR 40' box cars. Photo dates are
documented from early 1953 to the early 1960s with all but one being no
later than 1956. Locations of the photos are Fort Smith, San Francisco,
Philadelphia, New Haven, Kansas City, and St. Louis. An additional
quantity of photos from Bob Lorenz and Richard Burg collections, many
of them taken by Paul Dunn in Ohio, show a number of examples of BCK
box cars passing through that region. Regardless of where the cars
originated from or their destinations, these cars tended to get around
based on these examples.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Tim O'Connor
 

Brian, you cannot infer a car's point of origin from its current location.
The car could have been loaded in Minneapolis (another huge milling city)
and sent to San Diego. I have seen photos of many eastern box cars at the
grain port in Duluth/Superior. As Tim Gilbert has pointed out many times,
cars in the 1950's were routinely loaded and sent to destinations in total
disregard of the "rules". For all we know, the "RETURN TO" stencil may
just have been intended as advertising and nothing more. Until someone
comes up with an actual waybill for a carload of wheat flour shipped
3,000 miles I will remain highly skeptical of that distance. I accept it
could happen, but I just am not convinced it happened.

Tim, actually I have a Bob's photo of DL&W 55203, built 3-57 Magor CC, in San Diego at a bakery in April 1957 one month after building. The car is stenciled "RETURN TO BUFFALO FOR FLOUR LOADING." apparently the Buffalo flour cars did get around. Buffalo was the grain milling capital of the world. I admit I don't understand the economics of shipping wheat east by boat the flour west, but it did happen.


Re: MILW rib side double door ID help

Richard Hendrickson
 

From Rob Kirkham:

I've spotted yet another car I could use some help identifying. This is
taken from the same 6/1/1946 photo of waterfront yard in Vancouver BC on
the CPR as the photo of the UP and SSW cars discussed a couple of weeks
back.

The car is further back in the yard, and much less of it is visible.
What is clear is the MILW tilted wafer sign, the double doors and the
distinctive ribs.
For an in-service prototype photo, see my article on the Milwaukee Road rib
side box cars in the latest issue of Railmodel Jounral (just out). Most of
the article is devoted to the 40' cars, but there's a nice shot of 50' MILW
13548 in original paint and lettering.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Shawn Beckert
 

Sam Clarke wrote:

We have several photos of BCK 40' PS-1 box cars with open doors showing
the remains of bulk loose white powder (assuming it's flour because of the
printing on the side of the car, see below) and special linings or a sort of
seal around the door openings. A couple of our BCK sources have mentioned
these BCK cars were running back and forth from Seattle, WA to the east
coast. Apparently, these cars were used as "hoppers" for flour like others
were used for grain until real hoppers became more available and popular.
The following info is printed at the left of the doors:
SPECIAL WEEVIL CONTROL CAR
DO NOT CONTAMINATE
RETURN EMPTY TO BUFFALO
FOR FLOUR RELOADING

Sam,

Because of the lettering, I wonder if this wasn't some kind of experiment, and
not the standard way of moving flour? I have to agree with Tim; Buffalo to
Seattle seems an awfully long way to ship a carload of flour. Too bad we don't
have an ex-freight agent or two on this list to give us some insight on what
kind of freight got moved where - and why.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Archiving images (was Selling prints by mail)

Don Strack <donstrack@...>
 

The best archival method is to print it out on paper. With that in mind, I
have started to print my digital stuff to paper using high quality
semi-gloss paper, on an HP 8450 inkjet printer. I use HP inks and HP papers
because of a recent article comparing the archival qualities of both items.
For black & white, I use HP's newest #100 cartridge, which is gray tones,
without any dyes. I keep the prints in archival page protectors, among my
regular photographic prints.

I keep digital images on a hard drive to be able to zoom in and see the
detail. It's amazing what you can see on a zoomed image that you cannot see
on a paper print, even with a loupe. You can also tweak the contrast and
brightness to see stuff in the shadows.

But for overall viewing, try printing them out. I also back up to CD-R and
DVD-R, along with having 2 external drives that mirror certain folders.
Having lost both an internal hard drive and an external hard drive, both
within a one month period, I'm a bit gun-shy as to the longevity of hard
drives.

Don Strack


Buffalo Flour Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Brian Carlson
 

Tim, actually I have a Bob's photo of DL&W 55203, built 3-57 Magor CC, in San Diego at a bakery in April 1957 one month after building. The car is stenciled "RETURN TO BUFFALO FOR FLOUR LOADING." apparently the Buffalo flour cars did get around. Buffalo was the grain milling capital of the world. I admit I don't understand the economics of shipping wheat east by boat the flour west, but it did happen.

The photo is also interesting in that it is the only time I have seen ditto marks used for stenciling.

Brian J carlson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Sam,

White flour powder from broken bags and spillage also could be the
explanation for this. Damage to a few bags probably was common in
those days of no cushioning. The seal around the door would always
be needed to keep out air, water and especially insects. Shipping
flour 3,000 miles seems highly unlikely -- most of the flour from
Buffalo was milled from wheat grown 1,000 miles to the west. The
BCK cars may have been "borrowed" (or leased) because they were
safe to use for flour. I'm just guessing about this, but spilled
flour is not proof of bulk loading.



We have several photos of BCK 40' PS-1 box cars with open doors showing
the remains of bulk loose white powder (assuming it's flour because of the
printing on the side of the car, see below) and special linings or a sort of
seal around the door openings. A couple of our BCK sources have mentioned
these BCK cars were running back and forth from Seattle, WA to the east
coast. Apparently, these cars were used as "hoppers" for flour like others
were used for grain until real hoppers became more available and popular.

The following info is printed at the left of the doors:

SPECIAL WEEVIL CONTROL CAR
DO NOT CONTAMINATE
RETURN EMPTY TO BUFFALO
FOR FLOUR RELOADING

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

Tim O'Connor
 

Sam,

White flour powder from broken bags and spillage also could be the
explanation for this. Damage to a few bags probably was common in
those days of no cushioning. The seal around the door would always
be needed to keep out air, water and especially insects. Shipping
flour 3,000 miles seems highly unlikely -- most of the flour from
Buffalo was milled from wheat grown 1,000 miles to the west. The
BCK cars may have been "borrowed" (or leased) because they were
safe to use for flour. I'm just guessing about this, but spilled
flour is not proof of bulk loading.

We have several photos of BCK 40' PS-1 box cars with open doors showing
the remains of bulk loose white powder (assuming it's flour because of the
printing on the side of the car, see below) and special linings or a sort of
seal around the door openings. A couple of our BCK sources have mentioned
these BCK cars were running back and forth from Seattle, WA to the east
coast. Apparently, these cars were used as "hoppers" for flour like others
were used for grain until real hoppers became more available and popular.

The following info is printed at the left of the doors:

SPECIAL WEEVIL CONTROL CAR
DO NOT CONTAMINATE
RETURN EMPTY TO BUFFALO
FOR FLOUR RELOADING

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products


Re: IM M&StL box cars

Bill Darnaby
 

Thanks for the input. You're correct...heavy weathering is an option.

Bill Darnaby

I picked up two 54s at the local shop, I also visited the shop in Cedar Falls IA this weekend. I would say most opinions are the same as yours..."What's up with the color?" Maybe the IM people found a long lost paint chip? I will be over spraying mine with a bcr color as part of weathering.
When I was emailing Intermountain Marty he kept referring to the cars as red, not bcr as I was referring to them. The local shop guy even referred to them as red. This gets real confusing considering the cars were painted red after 56!
The lettering also looks too large. I will have to get out a stencil drawing and check it out. I do remember that the words in 'The Peoria Gateway' slogan were all different size letters.
Thanks to everyone for patronizing the M&StL.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: MILW rib side double door ID help

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rob Kirkham asked:
"I've spotted yet another car I could use some help identifying. <<snip>>
The car is further back in the yard, and much less of it is visible. What
is clear is the MILW tilted wafer sign, the double doors and the distinctive
ribs. I'm hoping this car can be modelled with less work than some of my
more recent requests, but hey, who said this had to be easy!

So once again, any tips on number series, better on line photos and
available models or approaches to modelling one of these?"

This car is the 50 ft auto boxcar version of the prewar MILW rib side
design, MILW 13500-13999. Kirk Reddie's article in the June 1988 issue of
Mainline Modeler has photos and roster information on these cars; however,
two words of warning. First, many of the photos in this article are of
these cars late in life and no later roster info is included (these cars
were renumbered at some point). Second, the roof descriptions in the roster
tables are a bit misleading to modelers as the "Hutchins" notation actually
meaning the two narrow rectangular panels per roof section design unique to
the MILW rib side cars. To be fair to Kirk, this was really the first
decent cut on these cars, and he remarks at the end of the article about the
new questions his research raised.

As John Greedy remarked, Ambroid did an HO kit for this car years ago;
however, it's also a straightforward kitbash from a P2K 50 ft single door or
double door automobile boxcar without end doors. A model built by Phil
Buchwald is posted on Ted's website at
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/buchwald/milw13631main.html
I'd follow Phil's techniques, but replace the roof with one spliced from two
Rib Side Models 40 ft MILW boxcar roofs to get a 50 ft version of the unique
MILW roof. (These weren't available when Phil did his kitbash.) Both parts
are tooled as separate pieces, making the work much easier.


Ben Hom


Re: fast freight train consists

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

I the M&StL company movie 'Fast Freight' (available for purchase)
They dhow and talk about a brakeman walking the moving train with all
types of cars.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: IM M&StL box cars

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Bill,
I picked up two 54s at the local shop, I also visited the shop in Cedar Falls IA this weekend. I would say most opinions are the same as yours..."What's up with the color?" Maybe the IM people found a long lost paint chip? I will be over spraying mine with a bcr color as part of weathering.
When I was emailing Intermountain Marty he kept referring to the cars as red, not bcr as I was referring to them. The local shop guy even referred to them as red. This gets real confusing considering the cars were painted red after 56!
The lettering also looks too large. I will have to get out a stencil drawing and check it out. I do remember that the words in 'The Peoria Gateway' slogan were all different size letters.
Thanks to everyone for patronizing the M&StL.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: fast freight train consists

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

I recall an article in the B&M Bulletin regarding an interview with a brakeman (or conductor) and their having to walk from one end of the moving train (mixed freight) to the other over the tops in winter. The open top cars had layers of snow covering their loads. Seems the man heading forward jumped into a loaded gondola (about half full) and wound up sinking through the snow up to his waist into offal that had been sitting outside long enough to cool and accumulate snow. He was several cars from the buggy and they could hear him yell all the way back. The inteviewee said he climbed back to the buggy, but they didn't want to let him in because of the stink.
Regards,
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:41 PM
Subject: [STMFC] fast freight train consists



Does anyone know for sure if railroads limited fast freight consists
or other specially selected trains to house cars so train men could
walk between the caboose to locomotive? I am specificly interested
in the post WWII before 1950 era.

We've been having an ongoing discussion of train men walking on the
roof tops of cars for some time.

It is my contention that walking across open top cars would be very
difficult to impossible.

Walking across a loaded hopper would be precarious - the load is
liable to shift. Crossing empty hoppers would be almost as
difficult. Walking on slope sheets would be awkward and time
consuming and each car had a waist high obstacle in the middle.
Climbing over the end would be an athletic feat.

Walking in a gon loaded with scrap could be precarious too. One slip
and a man's foot could get wedged in or cut to the bone. Getting
over the ends of some empty gons would be near impossible. Some
common gons had inside height of 4'8". Few men are capable of
getting over those ends that height(I never could and I used to be a
strength athlete capable of 20+ chin ups). Getting over a tall box
on a flat or in a gon would be impossible too.

A year or so ago Schuyler Larabee (SGL) listed half a dozen or so
consists from the '30s headed by Erie Berkshires. These were fast
freights containing a lot of reefers. I don't recall any open top
cars in those lists.

Was this a coincidence or a railroad policy? I know most open top
car loads aren't very time sensitive but a shipper might not want to
have some open top cars hanging around in a yard or even as part of
a slow freight - a gon loaded with scrap brass or copper for
instance.

Ed





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


Re: fast freight train consists

Michael Aufderheide
 

Ed,

In talking to ex Monon carman Bob Schultz he stated
that the Monon's hottest train in 1948, #71 from S.
Hammond In to Louisville never ran with any open top
cars. The reason being that delays due to shifted
loads were a cause of delay and more common with open
top cars.

Mike Aufderheide

--- ed_mines <ed_mines@...> wrote:


Does anyone know for sure if railroads limited fast
freight consists
or other specially selected trains to house cars so
train men could
walk between the caboose to locomotive? I am
specificly interested
in the post WWII before 1950 era.

We've been having an ongoing discussion of train men
walking on the
roof tops of cars for some time.

It is my contention that walking across open top
cars would be very
difficult to impossible.

Walking across a loaded hopper would be precarious -
the load is
liable to shift. Crossing empty hoppers would be
almost as
difficult. Walking on slope sheets would be awkward
and time
consuming and each car had a waist high obstacle in
the middle.
Climbing over the end would be an athletic feat.

Walking in a gon loaded with scrap could be
precarious too. One slip
and a man's foot could get wedged in or cut to the
bone. Getting
over the ends of some empty gons would be near
impossible. Some
common gons had inside height of 4'8". Few men are
capable of
getting over those ends that height(I never could
and I used to be a
strength athlete capable of 20+ chin ups). Getting
over a tall box
on a flat or in a gon would be impossible too.

A year or so ago Schuyler Larabee (SGL) listed half
a dozen or so
consists from the '30s headed by Erie Berkshires.
These were fast
freights containing a lot of reefers. I don't recall
any open top
cars in those lists.

Was this a coincidence or a railroad policy? I know
most open top
car loads aren't very time sensitive but a shipper
might not want to
have some open top cars hanging around in a yard or
even as part of
a slow freight - a gon loaded with scrap brass or
copper for
instance.

Ed






__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


Re: Buffalo Creek Boxcars

SamClarke
 

We have several photos of BCK 40' PS-1 box cars with open doors showing
the remains of bulk loose white powder (assuming it's flour because of the
printing on the side of the car, see below) and special linings or a sort of
seal around the door openings. A couple of our BCK sources have mentioned
these BCK cars were running back and forth from Seattle, WA to the east
coast. Apparently, these cars were used as "hoppers" for flour like others
were used for grain until real hoppers became more available and popular.

The following info is printed at the left of the doors:

SPECIAL WEEVIL CONTROL CAR
DO NOT CONTAMINATE
RETURN EMPTY TO BUFFALO
FOR FLOUR RELOADING

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Buffalo Creek Boxcars



I would imagine most flour in the steam era was bagged for shipment in
boxcars; otherwise you'd lose too much product into seams and through
cracks. Some may have been shipped in covered hoppers, but I don't think
that became common until the Airslide and Centerflow designs came along.

Shawn Beckert


-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-2554753-37435-1105556120-shawn.beckert=disney.com@....
yahoo.com
[mailto:sentto-2554753-37435-1105556120-shawn.beckert=disney.com@returns
.groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of D. Port Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:55 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Buffalo Creek Boxcars




Hi Everyone,

I have a question about Buffalo Creek Boxcars.

Was the flour loaded into the car in bulk the same way grain was or was
the flour bagged first then loaded in the car ?

Thank you

Dan Port Jr.






This message has been scanned and is certified to be 100% virus free -
Kinzua Internet Services, Warren, Pa 814-723-6106







Yahoo! Groups Links











Yahoo! Groups Links







fast freight train consists

ed_mines
 

Does anyone know for sure if railroads limited fast freight consists
or other specially selected trains to house cars so train men could
walk between the caboose to locomotive? I am specificly interested
in the post WWII before 1950 era.

We've been having an ongoing discussion of train men walking on the
roof tops of cars for some time.

It is my contention that walking across open top cars would be very
difficult to impossible.

Walking across a loaded hopper would be precarious - the load is
liable to shift. Crossing empty hoppers would be almost as
difficult. Walking on slope sheets would be awkward and time
consuming and each car had a waist high obstacle in the middle.
Climbing over the end would be an athletic feat.

Walking in a gon loaded with scrap could be precarious too. One slip
and a man's foot could get wedged in or cut to the bone. Getting
over the ends of some empty gons would be near impossible. Some
common gons had inside height of 4'8". Few men are capable of
getting over those ends that height(I never could and I used to be a
strength athlete capable of 20+ chin ups). Getting over a tall box
on a flat or in a gon would be impossible too.

A year or so ago Schuyler Larabee (SGL) listed half a dozen or so
consists from the '30s headed by Erie Berkshires. These were fast
freights containing a lot of reefers. I don't recall any open top
cars in those lists.

Was this a coincidence or a railroad policy? I know most open top
car loads aren't very time sensitive but a shipper might not want to
have some open top cars hanging around in a yard or even as part of
a slow freight - a gon loaded with scrap brass or copper for
instance.

Ed


Re: IM M&StL box cars

Bill Darnaby
 

By no means am I am expert on the M&StL but the paint is very red and only a shade lighter than the red used on the post 56 ball and stripe scheme. I wouldn't call it BCR or even light oxide red per the B&O and WM. It is much redder than that. But, if the Louie guys say it's right...

Bill Darnaby


Bill, I just picked my two kits up at the Whistle Stop this weekend. What are
your thoughts on the "red" color?
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: [Fwd: Re: Selling prints by mail]

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth, I agree but I think the paper problem has been solved
for some time... Most papers (and plastic sleeves) advertise
their utility for archival purposes.

At Michigan I used to curl up in the stacks with 250 year
old originals of the proceedings of the British Parliament.
Very entertaining stuff! :o) And in excellent condition.

At 03:16 PM 1/12/2005, you wrote:

Tim,

Let me add (speaking as a librarian) that paper also deteriorates,
especially papers with a high acid content. The paper dissolves itself
from the inside out. This is why newsprint yellows so fast.

If something is worth preserving for more than say 25 years, use a
low-acid, high-rag content archival bond. It costs a bit more, but is
well worth the price.

Kind regards,
Garth G. Groff

157241 - 157260 of 194661