Date   

Re: Freight Tariffs

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

OK, I can understand it at this level. If you ordered a car, you
paid a minimum weight regardless of how small your shipment was. As
your shipment weight went up, the rate slid up accordingly.
Relating this to a model railroad, I may have to run two 40 ton
cars to a siding if I decide that there is no 50 ton car available
that day.

Of course, as my brain runs off on a tangent to this, (and this
is a BIG jump!), taking a look at the USRA cars: If the technology
had developed to the point where the 50 ton car was practical, why
didn't the USRA simply standardize on the 50 ton car? Instead, they
had standard designs in both 40 AND 50 tons capacity?
Thanks!
Phil Buchwald




I am not the expert on this, but I have studied the 1900 period of
tarrifs.

For you "widgets". The tarrif will specify a rate per hundred
pounds.
It appears you are talking about a carload rate, so we also need
to
know the minimum carload weight for widgets. If we are less then
the
carload weight, we still pay for that minimum weight. If we are
over
we payu by the hundred weight. As long as our volume of widgets
fits
the car provided, we are fine. If we requested a car based on
volume,
then some exceptions take place.

With livestock there are some execptions on the size ordered verses
the size recieved. Even in boxcar shipments, if we ordered a
100,000
lb car and had that weight to ship, and the railroad provided a
80,000
lb car, the additional 20,000 lb could be loaded in another car and
both cars would be considered as a one car shipment at the
conveniance
of the railroad.

On the grain markings you mentioned. Various grains weight in
differently, these lines mark where the load would be equal to the
cars weight capacity. These serve as a guide at the elevator for
loading.

Howard Garner


Re: Library of Congress ORER Holdings

Richard Townsend
 

While I am located on the west coast, I get to Washington, DC several times a year (coincidentally around the time of the Timonium swap meets) and almost never get anywhere near Sacramento or Palo Alto. I don't suppose UVA has any old ORERs?

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

Chris BCarkan writes:

I recall others in the past saying there were
pretty good holdings of ORERs in the New York Public library (on-line
catalogue >I think and a few other libraries and museums around the
country. �Since you
are in Oregon, perhaps someone can chime in regarding left coast locations
(Cal.Rwy Museum?).
CSRM has extensive, though not complete, ORER holdings, including some
issues before the turn of the 20th C. �Stanford has a more complete
collection, which will presumably become readily available on-line if
Goggle's ambitious scheme to digitize the entire Stanford library
materializes.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Re: Rail Classics

Tim O'Connor
 

Weren't they working on PRR G31 gondolas, as well as the H2a?
If so, too bad. They were a quality importer.


History of ORER

Rudnick <spark@...>
 

The very first issue of the equipment guide was June, 1885, and was titled Sechrist's Hand-Book and Railway Equipment and Mileage Guide, within in few years the title was shortened to the Offical Railway Equipment Guide, (O. R. E. G.)and later, not sure of the date it was changed to the Official Railway Equipment Register, (O. R. E. R.)
So you have another couple of names to Google
From a few tidbits I read years ago in the Railroad Gazette, IIRC, there was talk about the necessity of such a book and there was at least one competitor, who did publish something, but the Railroad Gazette had seen had seen some samples of what Mr. Sechrist was attempting to do, and threw their weight behind his project.
The collection at the CRSM begins circa 1915-1920 and continues on from there.
For those who might need pre turn of the century rosters contact me off line, as I have a large collection of photo copies beginning with Vol. 1 #1
Ron Rudnick


Re: Library of Congress ORER Holdings

Richard Hendrickson
 

Chris BCarkan writes:

I recall others in the past saying there were
pretty good holdings of ORERs in the New York Public library (on-line
catalogue >I think and a few other libraries and museums around the
country. Since you
are in Oregon, perhaps someone can chime in regarding left coast locations
(Cal.Rwy Museum?).
CSRM has extensive, though not complete, ORER holdings, including some
issues before the turn of the 20th C. Stanford has a more complete
collection, which will presumably become readily available on-line if
Goggle's ambitious scheme to digitize the entire Stanford library
materializes.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Winterail is Saturday and Pleasanton is Sunday, March 13 & 14.<
Ted,
The 14th is a Monday on my calendar<G>, I suspect you mean March 12 and
13!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Off topic -ITEMS FOR SALE

cv_sne@...
 

Hello all,

After realizing that there is no more open space under the layout, in the crawl space, or in my workshop I need to make some room. Therefore I have compiled a list of items that are willing and able to go to good homes. (I tried to get this done several months ago and simply ran out of time -- this time I got the list done first!)

This list includes resin and plastic car kits, locomotives, structure kits, books, and detail parts. All HO scale. I do have some N scale items that I will be offering on the n-scale yahoo list some time in the future.

PLEASE reply to my HOME E-MAIL address -- cv_sne@... -- if you are interested in receiving a copy of the list. And leave the "ITEMS FOR SALE" subject line in your reply.

Do not reply to the list, or to my InterMountain (work address).

I will gather up the names of all interested and send the list to all sometime Monday evening (approx 6 pm Mountain Time).

Thanks, and sorry for the wasted bandwidth.

Marty


Rail Classics H-2/2a/3 project (not)

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

Well, it looks like the Broadway Limited H-2a hoppers are the only ones we'll see, beyond the Eastern Car Works' ones. Rail Classics has announced that they are getting out of the brass business.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Larger Capacity Freight Cars

CBarkan@...
 

This is a classic economy of scale example. The higher the car's capacity,
the more efficient it is for the railroad to operate because the extra weight
does not result in a proportional increase in costs (either first cost or
operating cost). Thus the cost per ton-mile went down. Presumably this has been
the basis for the steady increase in railcar capacity over the past 150 years,
and it certainly is behind the present move from 100 to 110 ton capacity cars.
The Southern Rwy Big John hopper example (cited earlier today) is a good
case in point. The larger more efficient car meant the Southern could charge a
lower rate and still turn a profit on a commodity, thus altering the
competitive balance, much to the chagrin of Southern's competitors.

Chris

In a message dated 1/23/05 2:28:54 PM, timboconnor@... writes:

<< I am course wondering what the
big deal was about increasing car capacity from 50 to 70 to 100
tons each. Why would shippers have cared? I think it is because
they get a rate specific to each type of car, and bigger cars got
lower rates. >>


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Good morning all,

I spoke with Martin on Friday to find out if he was going to be in Maryland for the Timonium Scale Train Meet the first weekend in February and he advised that it looked like he was not going to make it due to ongoing business. He said that he and Tricia had leased a small building on the industrial side of Springfield and were in the process of getting ready to move the business to that location as soon as he could get it ready.

For many years, Tricia has been wanting to get the business out of the house as it had expanded to the point that almost all the available space was given over to storage of equipment, masters, molds, etc. In addition to this, there was always the possibility of getting as hassle from the city, if they found that they were running a commercial business from their home in a residential area. So finally they will be operating from an area that was devoted entirely to the business and having a house that was uncluttered.

I had asked Martin if he was planning to go to California for the late winter shows that he always does and he indicated that he has intentions to do so, but my guess is that his trip west will hinge on how successful the move goes and how it will affect the present order backlogs.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Station & Reweigh Symbols

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

I have posted the first revision of the Station and Reweight Symbols to the Files section of the list. This contains all of the corrections/additions that I have received to date, including extensive symbols for CN and CP supplied by John Riddell.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Station & Reweigh Symbols.xls
Uploaded by : jamesfbrewer <jfbrewer@...>
Description : Stations & Reweigh Symbols, Revision #1

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Station%20%26%20Reweigh%20Symbols.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

jamesfbrewer <jfbrewer@...>


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 23, 2005, at 7:31 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:


Do either of these meets coincide with Winterrail in Sacramento?
Tim:

Winterail is Saturday and Pleasanton is Sunday, March 13 & 14.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Tim O'Connor
 

Do either of these meets coincide with Winterrail in Sacramento?

The meet is NOT in Monrovia this year. It is in Buena Park on March 6,
at the Holiday Inn on 7000 Beach Blvd (714-522-7000). The Sunshine
rate is $75 per night. I will post the schedule of speakers to the web
site this week. The Pleasanton meet is at the same place as always,
the week following the S. Cal. meet.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 23, 2005, at 6:53 AM, Robert Cheeks wrote:

Jay

The swap meet at OREM is Sat. March 5. I haven't heard if Martin will
be there. He usually hosts the Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meet the
next day in Monrovia.  I just checked the STMFC website calendar and
it lists the Monrovia meet on Sunday so I would guess he'll be there.
The meet is NOT in Monrovia this year. It is in Buena Park on March 6,
at the Holiday Inn on 7000 Beach Blvd (714-522-7000). The Sunshine
rate is $75 per night. I will post the schedule of speakers to the web
site this week. The Pleasanton meet is at the same place as always,
the week following the S. Cal. meet.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Sunshine Models Trip to California

Robert Cheeks <Rcheeks666@...>
 

Jay

The swap meet at OREM is Sat. March 5. I haven't heard if Martin will
be there. He usually hosts the Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meet the
next day in Monrovia. I just checked the STMFC website calendar and
it lists the Monrovia meet on Sunday so I would guess he'll be there.

Robert Cheeks
Riverside CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Bingham" <j.bingham@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 9:33 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Models Trip to California




Anyone know the dates for the Perris, Ca Swap Meet and whether Mr.
Lofton will be there with a pacel of Sunshine kits.

Jay Bingham
Pacific Palisades, CA





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Re: Freight Tariffs

earlyrail
 

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:

Not to go into the nitty-gritty of Chinese arithmatic, but....

In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's
services. In particular, a shipper has 3/4ths of a 1944 box car
volume worth of widgets, but the railroad supplies a 1923 built 8
1/2 foot tall car, which gets filled to the rim with the same number
of widgets. Do the shippers get charged for "a car and up to 50 tons
times X number of miles", for "volume times weight times miles", or
what? Same thing applies to grain shipments (actually, the photos in
the 1932 ARA box car book which show the different lines on the
inside lining, for different grain types, is what got me thinking
about this!)

A "high level" explanation of how this worked might help making more
realistic car assignments during an operating session.

Thanks!

Phil Buchwald
I am not the expert on this, but I have studied the 1900 period of
tarrifs.

For you "widgets". The tarrif will specify a rate per hundred pounds.
It appears you are talking about a carload rate, so we also need to
know the minimum carload weight for widgets. If we are less then the
carload weight, we still pay for that minimum weight. If we are over
we payu by the hundred weight. As long as our volume of widgets fits
the car provided, we are fine. If we requested a car based on volume,
then some exceptions take place.

With livestock there are some execptions on the size ordered verses
the size recieved. Even in boxcar shipments, if we ordered a 100,000
lb car and had that weight to ship, and the railroad provided a 80,000
lb car, the additional 20,000 lb could be loaded in another car and
both cars would be considered as a one car shipment at the conveniance
of the railroad.

On the grain markings you mentioned. Various grains weight in
differently, these lines mark where the load would be equal to the
cars weight capacity. These serve as a guide at the elevator for loading.

Howard Garner


Re: Library of Congress ORER Holdings

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., CBarkan@a... wrote:

<snip>
I recall others in the past saying there were
pretty good holdings of ORERs in the New York Public library (on-
line catalogue I
think)
<snip>

Last I knew the NYPL holdings were <not> catalogued on-line, other
than a single reference to the fact that they have an ORER
collection.

The NYPL's ORER collection is all on microfilm, and of the select
issues I have viewed, the reproduction leaves a lot to be desired.
At least 1% of the data is lost.

The first ORER was c.1885 (it had a somewhat different name then),
but those early editions did not have any where near the amount of
dimensional data found by the early 20th century. NYPL is missing a
couple of dozen early issues, but their collection does have a large
number of 19th century editions. It was published monthly in those
days.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


Re: Water for steam

Charles Morrill <badlands@...>
 

The SP also used MOW tank cars of water behind steam locos sometimes. On both the standard gauge and narrow gauge lines.
Charlie


Subject: [STMFC] RE: Water for steam


The only road I can think of using tank cars (obligatory STMFC
content) to carry water was the Santa Fe, but perhaps there were
others.

Lance Burton




Re: Freight Tariffs

CBarkan@...
 

Phil,

The subject of rail freight tariffs is ENORMOUSLY complex. There are
numerous books with substantial content on the subject dating back over 100 years.
It was so complex that at one time one could take college courses that were
largely devoted to the topic. Both RRs and shippers needed people who understood
this stuff. The subject does not lend itself to any simple, logical rules of
transportation or economic efficiency. As Tim says, the basis for rates
started with commodity type and weight (higher value commodities generally
commanded higher rates per hundredweight), but beyond that the arcana began. And
don't make the mistake of thinking it was internally consistent within a
particular RR. RR sales agents were often rewarded for getting the traffic, not how
much (or even if!) the company actually profited from it. One principal that
affected a lot of this was the belief (probably mistaken) that RR cost
structure was dominated by very large fixed expenses, so any carload that at least
covered what was thought to be the small incremental cost of its actual
transportation was contributing to the bottom line. This could lead to the routings
like the one Tim cites below and Schuyler's example of the Texas to NJ routing
via Chicago. In fact, neither of these strike me as the most outlandish that
occurred.

There are others on this list (Greg Mahlkov, etc.?) who were employed by
railroads and have more direct knowledge of the process. They could probably cite
some interesting examples of the ways and means by which RRs and their
employees obtained business by playing games with the rate and routing structure.

Chris

In a message dated 1/22/05 1:54:05 PM, timboconnor@... writes:

<< Phil,

I think tariffs were based on commodity and weight per carload,
and of course, source and destination. Changing the rules to be
more flexible as cars got larger, and railroads wanted to offer
multi-car discounts, was the subject of the huge "Big John"
hopper case in the 1960's. Tariffs were published and anyone
could offer them. For example, a railroad from A-B might have
the best route, but any other competitor serving A and B also
could offer the same rate, even if that meant going A-C-D-B.
So routings were often seemingly bizarre, involving hundreds
of extra miles (if not thousands). The SP brought Oregon lumber
down through Texas and up via the Cotton Belt to St Louis, rather
than short-haul itself via Ogden and the UP. The all-SP route
was hundreds of miles further, but UP could offer no advantage
on rates -- only service.

Tim


In general terms, how were shippers charged for the railroad's
services. In particular, a shipper has 3/4ths of a 1944 box car
volume worth of widgets, but the railroad supplies a 1923 built 8
1/2 foot tall car, which gets filled to the rim with the same number
of widgets. Do the shippers get charged for "a car and up to 50 tons
times X number of miles", for "volume times weight times miles", or
what? Same thing applies to grain shipments (actually, the photos in
the 1932 ARA box car book which show the different lines on the
inside lining, for different grain types, is what got me thinking
about this!)

A "high level" explanation of how this worked might help making more
realistic car assignments during an operating session.

Thanks!
Phil Buchwald>>

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