Date   

The Rest of the Story [ Was Perishables in Chicago or Train Speeds ]]

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim Gilbert says:

"High running speeds do not mean necessarily fast service - cars have to
get through the yards, too."

Absolutely. And a major factor in the character of "fast" or "slow" RRs. The point being that a RR would have a better chance at speed if it did not have to process its trains through very many points at which serious diversions took place.

"High running speeds do not mean necessarily fast service - cars have to
get through the yards, too. By 1950, the ERIE, DL&W & NYC all had 2nd
morning arrival (36 hours) arrival for the 900-1,000 mile New York to
Chicago service (vs. the seventh morning (156 hour transit time) for the
Pacific Coast - Chicago runs); therefore locomotive power may not be the
entire answer"

True. As anyone who has observed current UP frts or even those in the 80s sitting at the entrance to Cheyenne realize. However, if a train is still 100 miles to the west, having a cleaned out Cheyenne yard doesn't do much good.
Tim O'Connor notes:

"Bridge routes tend to move a little faster, is all, because
of less local traffic as a percentage of train miles. This
also holds true for UP and AT&SF, which had relatively long
hauls and longer distances between traffic centers."

Perhaps. However, as I will demonstrate, other factors come into play...namely topography.
"Mike, 2200 miles in 6 1/2 days is about... 14 mph. What's to
disagree with? You just proved Jerry's point.

"Train speeds are measured terminal to terminal. So while AT&SF
trains may have hit 50 or 60 while moving, there was lots of
single track territory, water stops, inspection and crew stops,
setting up and taking down retainers in mountain territory...
and so on. All that takes time."
Yep. Here's the rest of the story. From the Sep 1953 Trains article by David P. Morgan.

On June 4, 1953, Santa Fe perishable delivery schedules were 107 hrs from Bakersfield to Chicago and 89 hrs if need be. The 107 hrs was a "drop dead" time, rather than a schedule time, Santa Fe paying penalties if not met. To illustrate the process, the article follows one train east. It encountered 2-2.5% grades in the Tehachapi's causing a 14 mph speed for 49 miles. It then covered 72 miles in 85 minutes to Barstow...an average of 51 mph. This is what is so often missunderstood. While RRs did seem to load down trains to the point that speed was seriously effected, if the motive power had only been capable of, say, 35 or even 40 mph, time could not have been "made up". From Barstow to Seligman, about 150 miles of a steady 1.4% grade, an avg speed of 14 mph was attained. Various similar grades were encountered along with stretches in which "fast" running was possible. The Santa Fe solution was high horsepower 2-10-4 locomotives and FT diesels, so locomotive design was a significant factor....as John Purcell and his successors realized. The train was hauled by FT and F3 diesels and received a 2-10-4 helper at Belen for 41 miles of 1.25% grades to Mountainair.

As far as the train goes, the great majority of the 66 cars were to be iced at every ice dock....Needles, CA,...Belen, NM,...Waynoka, OK,...Argentine, KS. The first diversion was at Belen with others at Clovis, Amarillo, TX. The entire train was rebuilt at Argentine with other cars added. An interesting and unique aspect of the trip was that a series of tornados struck the Santa Fe near Canadian, TX, which caused a delay of 3 hrs and shut down the Santa Fe CTC system. The total time from Bakersfield to Chicago was 97 hrs, 38 minutes, an average speed of 22.5 MPH. Considering that that speed exceeeds the fastest in Tim's data, the fact that the train was forced to stop at every signal between Canadian and Waynoka because of inoperating signals...not bad....if 21.6 is supposed to be "fast".

Mike Brock


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Richard Hendrickson
 

Tim Gilbert writes:

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?
and Ted Culotta responds:

Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.
Not so silly, Ted. There is photographic evidence that at least one of the
cars got corrugated doors as early as the mid-'40s and that some (most?)
had the doors replaced by the early 1950s. The rarity here is the car that
lasted later than that with its original doors.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yeah, we'll read it soon:

"Remember the dashes in Pennsy car classes"

Running for shelter!

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Pitzer [mailto:scottp459@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 6:53 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad


Oh gee, here we go again...
Scott Pitzer
=======

-----Original Message-----

"... X-29 box cars ..."




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Re: ICC Library Holdings at Denver

Rich Ramik <rjramik@...>
 

Considering the significance of the material, one would think that that the
"boys in Washington DC" should have their collective chains pulled by the CO
RR Museum! Local media should be involved as well. There is always some
young gun looking for a good story. At a minimum, the NMRA should be
involved and quite probably the NRHS!



But then again, what do I know?



For What It's Worth,

Rich Ramik





_____

From: raildata@... [mailto:raildata@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:52 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ICC Library Holdings at Denver



I just talked with Kenton Forrest, the Archivist at the Co RR Museum, and
here is the "straight skinny" on the ICC Records.

They are in the ahnds of the University of Denver. The university took them
with some promise that they were to get funding for a building to house
them.
No funding was provided and is probably never going to happen. There were
about
5 containers full of records and they now have been in a DU warehouse for 8
years.

Ever since the records were shipped to Denver Kenton and the Museum
officiers
been trying to at least get a look at what is in the roecords. We have
offered to assist in cataloging, sorting, inventorying, etc. with no
success. DU
just stonewalls any attempt for access or assistance. The RR Museum has
even
offered to store the records or add them to our very well equipped library
and
archival storage.

So it is at a stalemate and to date we have never met anyone in the Denver
area who has any idea what is there.

BTW. The Co RR Museum has one ORER for each year, with about 4 missing. they

are now hard bound. They are open to visitors and the Library will copy
pages
for 20 cents a sheet plus postage. Library can be reached at 800-365-6263
Tuesday through Saturday 11:30 to 4.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Re: Train Speed

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Y

Perhaps the best example of this was the "Alphabet Route"
which regularly beat the big railroads time between Chicago
and NY City area. Don't recall the route out of Chicago
(NKP?) but on the Eastern end it W&LE, P&WV, WM, and RDG.
It was set up like a well practiced sports play with each
line waiting for the connection and quickly passing it on to
the next, with no major yards to slow things down.
Chuck, a couple years ago I was at the Rail Museum (one room in a library) in
Maybrook. The (real railroaders) there said that the handoff from NH to L&HR (I
think) as the very eastern end of the alphabet route typically took less than 10
(TEN!!!) minutes. The locomotives were prepositioned, as was a caboose
accompanied by a switcher, and the pick and place was accomplished in almost no
time at all. The air was left pumped up on the train, so no wasted time getting
the brakes off. Good thing Maybrook is a level yard.

SGL


P70 Traveling Soybean Exhibit

Bill Lane <billlane@...>
 

Hi All,

My newest Builders Photo additions arrived tonight. For your downloading
pleasure I give you P70 #3716 that was converted into a traveling Soybean
exhibit, shown here on 8-16-37.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/P70_Soybean.jpg

Most of the 10 photos I got were interior shots, with MANY fancy displays
extolling the virtues of the soybean in more uses then were possibly
previously imaginable! Note the "Soybean Exhibit" marked on the blanked out
windows.

I am wondering if some Soybean association sponsored the conversion of the
car for the display and the tour costs, or if the PRR was promoting soybeans
as a possible product for shipping.

Also note the VERY tasty almost new REA X29 with the Dreadnaught ends and
Youngstown door.

Lastly here is a Soybean news nugget: the first known commercial soybean
crop was grown in New Brunswick NJ in 1878. You all can sleep better now
knowing THAT fact!

Thank You,
Bill Lane

Importing a Brass S Scale PRR X29
http://www.pennsysmodels.com
The freight versions are currently in production

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:42 PM, timgilbert17851 wrote:


--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
>

> It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
> MTC.  The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
> correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had
been
> fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors.  Since they were also top
hung
> doors, the door tracks are incorrect.  You can get the correcr parts
> from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors.  Oh, by the way,
> they had Duryea underframes.  Here is what the model should look
like
> as built (see below).  The big change for your era would be the
doors.
>
> http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html
>

Ted,

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960? 
Silly assumption. I did say I thought, not that they definitely had.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

timgilbert17851 <tgilbert@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
MTC. The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had been
fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors. Since they were also top hung
doors, the door tracks are incorrect. You can get the correcr parts
from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors. Oh, by the way,
they had Duryea underframes. Here is what the model should look like
as built (see below). The big change for your era would be the doors.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html
Ted,

What makes you think that all of B&M's 1923 Steel Design Boxcars had
Youngstown Doors when the photo of MTC #71999 with original "as built"
doors on page 27 of the NORTHERN NEW ENGLAND COLOR GUIDE was taken on
January 30, 1960?

Tim Gilbert


Re: upgraded models was New Walthers USRA 55 ton hopper

Brian Carlson
 

Tim, maybe retooled isn't the right word. I noticed the grabs and that the coupler pockets were different than I recall. I probably should have said upgraded cars.

Brian J Carlson

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Yeah, I think we discussed these when they were first announced. Now as to a pleasant surprise has anyone else seen the retooled Athearn 85' TOFC flat (Blt 1959) so they fit (barely). I was impressed by the metals wheelsets and freestanding grabirons on these cars. I was not impressed with the low $20's price tag, even with the two trailers included.

Brian Carlson
Brian, a nit: the Athearn represents a car first built in 1960.
The earlier cars had slight fishbelly sills.

How do you know the Athearn model was retooled? I looked at them
and they appear to be unchanged (except for the grabs?) and all
of them had 1970's trailers anyway. They are pricey too.

Tim O.




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PS2 2 bay covered hoppers

fuchst900
 

Is there a place I can get a listing of roads that had these. I am
interested in DRGW. Does any one know if they had these? Steve Fuchs


Re: Walthers To buy or not to buy

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
"Reminds me of a joke about dogma and karma, but I can't remember the
details."

My karma ran over my dogma...

(Mandatory STMFC content)
Anyone have any Red Caboose X29 carcasses (kit disasters, etc.) looking for
a home? Confidentiality will be honored. That X30 is calling...


Ben Hom


Re: Walthers To buy or not to buy

Richard Hendrickson
 

I have long made it a policy not to buy Walthers products<
But Richard, the waycars, the waycars -- sob!

Jon Miller
Jon, please note that I added "...if there's an acceptable alternative."
I'm not a dogmatist about this (or much else), and if Walthers produces
something I want and no one else makes it, then of course I'll buy it.
(Reminds me of a joke about dogma and karma, but I can't remember the
details).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: New Walthers USRA 55 ton hopper

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ted Culotta wrote:
"Well, at least the trucks appear to be something slightly different, even
though they are wrong for USRA hoppers."

I wish that were the case. Sadly, they're the same old ex-Train-Miniature
"Bettendorf" trucks that have been on the market for almost 35 years now.


Ben Hom


Re: Walthers To buy or not to buy

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I have long made it a policy not to buy Walthers products<
But Richard, the waycars, the waycars -- sob!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:07 PM, Ted Culotta wrote:


http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html
By the way, the model pictured in this link fell from a height of almost seven feet to a hardwood floor... and like a cat, landed on its trucks, causing only a bent axle on one of the wheelsets! I had also forgotten that there is a better photo of it here:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/culotta/bm71968main.html

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 25, 2005, at 3:48 PM, Tom Lawler wrote:

In Feb 05 RMC, page 25 is a Bethleham Car Works ad with a pic of a B&M
MTC
X-29 box car.  From the pic it apprears to be a decent looking car.

My 1953 ORER info matches this car for the most part.  It seems the
EW and
EH numbers on the car do not match the ORER but maybe I can live with
that.
Other than that, any comments from the B&M fans on what they think of
this
car would be appreciated (such as paint scheme, doors, roof, etc).
Tom:

It's a 1923 ARA design box car - there were 21 for the B&M and 4 for
MTC. The doors (NOT reverse Creco - there is no such animal) are
correct for an as built car, but by then, me thinks they all had been
fitted with Youngstown corrugated doors. Since they were also top hung
doors, the door tracks are incorrect. You can get the correcr parts
from several sets of Grandt Line Camel wood doors. Oh, by the way,
they had Duryea underframes. Here is what the model should look like
as built (see below). The big change for your era would be the doors.

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/bm71968main.html

regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: New Walthers USRA 55 ton hopper

Richard Hendrickson
 

Ted Culotta writes:

Apparently "Empire Builder" is no longer just a train. I can't wait to
see what other manufacturers they try to deep six. Predatory for no
good reason. In the not too distant future, we'll all be buying from
WalMart, er, Horizon, and Costco, I mean Walthers. Well, at least the
trucks appear to be something slightly different, even though they are
wrong for USRA hoppers.
None of this is new, of course. Years ago, when MDC was known to be
developing their 50' single sheathed auto car models, Walthers rushed their
own 50' single sheathed auto cars into production. The MDC cars, based on
WP prototype information, were more accurate and better detailed than
anything they had produced previously, while the Walthers models were
generic cars that sort of resembled some MILW cars but in fact weren't
accurate for any single prototype and were poorly executed (e.g., their
3-3-3 Dreadnaught ends can only be described as a disaster). When asked at
that year's Rosemont trade show why they had introduced an inferior model
knowing that MDC was about to hatch a near-equivalent of better quality,
one of Walthers' sales guys arrogantly declared, "we'll show 'em who's
number one." Obviously, things haven't changed. What Walthers products
lack in accuracy and quality will be made up for in marketing muscle, and
the hobby as a whole - at least, the serious scale modeling side of the
hobby - will suffer in consequence. Those of us who don't like it can vote
with our feet. I have long made it a policy not to buy Walthers products
if there's an acceptable alternative and not to be buy other manufacturers'
products from Walthers or their dealers if I can avoid it.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: upgraded models was New Walthers USRA 55 ton hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Yeah, I think we discussed these when they were first announced. Now as to a pleasant surprise has anyone else seen the retooled Athearn 85' TOFC flat (Blt 1959) so they fit (barely). I was impressed by the metals wheelsets and freestanding grabirons on these cars. I was not impressed with the low $20's price tag, even with the two trailers included.

Brian Carlson
Brian, a nit: the Athearn represents a car first built in 1960.
The earlier cars had slight fishbelly sills.

How do you know the Athearn model was retooled? I looked at them
and they appear to be unchanged (except for the grabs?) and all
of them had 1970's trailers anyway. They are pricey too.

Tim O.


Re: Comments on B&M X-29 box cars in RMC ad

Scott Pitzer
 

Oh gee, here we go again...
Scott Pitzer
=======

-----Original Message-----

"... X-29 box cars ..."


Re: ICC Library Holdings at Denver

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Thorny subject, for sure. Do not be so hard on the libraries, which are almost universally under-funded, and at the same time have to exercise a legal and ethical stewardship over collections that may not be of their choosing. They have an inherent responsibility for the integrity, safety, and preservation of their materials- in addition to any other requirements peculiar to any particular gift document (which the average observer may know nothing about).

Libraries being given large donated archives are akin to impecunious persons being given a donated herd of elephants. The troubles can and do start at the moment of arrival. This is why many institutions have been forced to cloak themselves in a policy of "no acceptance" without side monies to underwrite basic storage costs, not to mention cataloguing, and the application of basic conservation and preservation. Only after these fundamental things are done can the materials be made safe for public access.

In these regards, sadly, many libraries shy from the use of volunteers because of bad behavior and experiences- i.e. pilfering and deliberate or careless mishandling of photos and documents.

Having said this, I do agree that many libraries and collections should make much more effort to use adequate use of motivated volunteers, and then actually do so. This does require some fundamental professional training in document conservation and preservation (including the basic ethics and etiquette of handling historical documents), and on-going hands-on supervision. This requires (guess what!)- manpower and money. Full circle.

Copying documents: A hot issue. Many libraries will no longer routinely copy bound volume pages because of the inevitable damage done to the bindings in the process. This is especially so with bound documents like the ORERs and Official Guides where fragile binding (not ever intended to last) is coupled with rapidly disintegrating paper. In these instances, copying might only be performed from designated "sacrificial" duplicates- if such are available (this is the current policy of the California State Railroad Museum Library).

As to the important ICC holdings, be thankful that they are in at least protected storage (and, I would hope, climate controlled). Most libraries are service adjuncts to a parent institution. In this regard, hypothetically, the UofD library may have had absolutely no interest in or plans for funding for the collection, but hold them because they are dependencies of other obligations negotiated by the University administration on behalf of other donations or political favors devolving to the university as a whole. In this regard (and probably in any case) the president of the university (not the library) is where one would begin any negotiations for de-accession or access. Be prepared with a convincing plan for professional management and handling, public access, and that you have the money to take it on- for the long haul.

If the CSRM had the money, the personnel, and the space I would be urging them to pursue the matter. They do not beyond current obligations; and I won't.

Denny



--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

158961 - 158980 of 196865