Trying to find some information on the lettering used on Western Fruit Express reefers WHIX 70000 to 70999 built by PC&F in the 1950's.

Couple Questions:

Were these cars delivered with the older serif Fruit Growers Express lettering or the gothic lettering used before the Big Sky Blue era?

Did the cars when delivered have the side ladders and hardware painted black?

Does anyone have an equipment register drawing for these cars?

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

2) Did Chartrand own any ACF Type-21 or Type-27 tank cars, thus
making them easier to model?

Yes, they owned a bunch of 10K gal. Type 21s for which L-L's model is dead
on, and presumably Ted will include the dates and data for those cars in
his forthcoming decal set.

Well, what the hey - Ted, if it's not too late, please sign me up for three
sets of Chartrand decals. Since I've got more P2K Type-21's stuffed in the
closet than a body has a right to, I might as well do three in the Chartrand
lettering and add some variety to the fleet.

Richard, thanks for the information.

Shawn Beckert

Jerry Stewart writes:

About 10 years ago I saw a photo of a Wabash steam engine
that came from the collection of Chet French, the first car
behind the engine (half visible in the photo) was an AC&F
high walkway tank. It was (I think) a 10K car, and it was
owned and lettered for SHELL. It was in typical 40's SHELL
paint, black car with large SHELL to the left of the center
and reporting marks beneath.

Then the next question, which the photo might or might not answer, is which
branch of Shell operated the car, Shell of California (SCCX), Roxana
Petroleum (RPX), or Shell Eastern Products (SEPX) - or even, for that
matter, Shell of Canada (SCAX), though that's unlikely in a Wabash train.
To model the car, we'd also need its number (or at least number series),
and the ORER entries are usually useless for figuring that out. Chet, how
about materializing that photo to see what information we can glean from it?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Mike, I believe it was on this list, and I think I answered it ( would have to review in the archives though). I am traveling and don't have full access.

Basically, there is:
1/32 which is used for standard gauge brass and such, an accurate measurement of track gauge
1/29 which is what USA or Aristcraft SG uses
1/24 which is what Aristocraft NG uses and some brass has used
1.22.5 accurate for meter guage - this is what LGB uses - correct for their meter gauge stock, wrong for their USA stock
1:20.5 (Fn3) Accucraft and others use this for NG - accurate for track gauge for 3'
1:18 used by some for 2' and other uses.
That's a short list, but as I say, references aren't available to me right now.

But, suffice it to say, there is no "G scale".

Richard,

I should have remembered that. I have decaled the reporting marks on the
ends of 400 freight cars ;-)

regards,

Andy Miller

Also, because the Rutland always spelled out "RUTLAND" on every
single one of their box cars ever, most observers don't even know
that their reporting mark was "R". It's there on the end of the
car, but many people stil insist on saying "RUT". That was never a
reporting mark, but frequently used in routing instructions on
waybills.

As far as I know, the only roads whose reporting mark was a single
letter were Rutland and Montour ("M").

Jeff English
Troy, New York

Hello,

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Taking Ed Mines' tip, I pulled the two articles from Mainline Modeler. An
article with drawings by Bob Hundman and photos of the C&O 95200-95249
series cars appeared in the March 2000 issue. Based on this information,
the following corrections are made to my last post on these cars:

- C&O 95200-95249 did not have Duryea cushion underframes. C&O 95250-95299
did.
- Roof is a 15-carline (including the ends) Murphy XLA roof.

The other article by Mark Montague appeared in the January 1985 Mainline
Modeler, and featured C&O 95000-95199, 36 ft cars built by AC&F in
1922-1923.

The March 2000 issue is available direct from Hundman Publishing:
http://www.securetrainweb.com/hundman/cgi-bin/estore.cgi?ct=1

The January 1985 issue is out of print. This article was reprinted in The
Best of Mainline Modeler's Freight Cars Volume 2, also out of print.


Ben Hom

I'm sure this was covered a long time ago, but is the Atlas reefer
suitable for any of the Swift Co. wood reefers?

Also, any ideas on modelling their 15000 series steel reefers?

Thanks in advance
Stefan Lerché
Duncan BC Canada

The Southern continued to use its full name on car sides _and_ ends until the adoption of the "Claytor" lettering scheme after the NS merger. Which has long led to the confusion of what initials to use on reports for Southern cars, SOU or SRR. I don't recall when SOU was adopted as the official mark, and SRR is technically incorrect since it was the Southern _Railway_, but SRR seems to have been common usage on other railroads.

Scott C

Paul Hillman writes:

"A few months ago someone posted all of the G-scale, "scales", with
respect to G-gauge track. I lost reference to that post.

Could someone please re-refer the scales/gauge data."

Paul, you must be referring to another group. The STMFC deals only with steam era frt cars. Yes, issues about rail as it is associated with wheels on steam era frt cars might be in scope but not references to track "scales". Gauge is not an issue. Information that you seek is, BTW, probably available at the NMRA website.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

From Shawn (ever hopeful) Beckert:

Knowing Ted Culotta's interest in modeling the New Haven
circa 1947, I passed on his offer of Chartrand decal sets,
thinking this was an early steam-era east coast company.

Well, no - a little research in the April, 1959 ORER revealed
that Chartrand was still very much around at that time, with
a fair-sized fleet of cars, most of them the 8000 gallon size.
Home points turned out to include Houston, San Antonio, and
Texarkana - right in the heart of T&NO/Cotton Belt territory.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that, Shawn. For relatively small
operators like Chartrand, home points were the shops of whatever larger
company had the contract for repairs and maintenance, and there's no
guarantee the Chartrand cars actually turned up in places like Houston or
Texarkana. Chartrand's HQ were in the Los Angeles area and all of the
existing photos of their cars were taken there (or near there, e.g. San
Diego and Bakersfield).

So now that my interest level has gone up a bit, I have some
questions about this tank car leasing outfit:

1) Did Chartrand's paint and lettering scheme change very much
between 1947 and 1959?

No. In later years, the lettering was reduced to reporting marks, numbers
and data, but the lettering style remained the same.

2) Did Chartrand own any ACF Type-21 or Type-27 tank cars, thus
making them easier to model?

Yes, they owned a bunch of 10K gal. Type 21s for which L-L's model is dead
on, and presumably Ted will include the dates and data for those cars in
his forthcoming decal set.

BTW, Chartrand's offices were originally on 6th St. in Los Angeles, but in
the '50s they moved to an address on Santa Monica Blvd. in Hollywood, and
for a time their cars were stenciled CHARTRAND and below that HOLLYWOOD.
Surely they must have been the only tank cars that had a Hollywood address.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

A few months ago someone posted all of the G-scale, "scales", with
respect to G-gauge track. I lost reference to that post.

Could someone please re-refer the scales/gauge data.

Thanks,

Paul Hillman

Any copy of Machinery's Handbook will answer this and a lot of other
questions regarding metal fasteners and standard sizes and shapes of
metal products such as sheet, wire, pipe, bars, etc., etc.

I have my father's copy from 1943, but surely most of this info is
available online somewhere and that, obviously, would most likely
reflect modern standards.

Jeff English
Troy, New York

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

Does anyone know or can someone direct me to a source of

information on

the typical (most common) size(s) of button head rivets used on

box

cars and gondolas and cone head rivets used on tank cars? I

realize

that these things varied, but for the purposes of HO scale, the
differences would subtle to say the least. Any key dimension will

be

fine, e.g. the diameter of the button or cone or the diameter of

the

body (rivet post) can be used, as I have the AAR specifications

that

provide the formulas for calculating one dimension with another

given

dimension.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@s...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Thanks, Ed.
Gene Moser

Andy Miller writes:

May I point to my favorite road, and undoubtedly the most prolific and
flagrant example of exceeding the four letter rule, the PENNSYLVANIA! I
don't believe they started marking their cars PRR until the mid 60s!

Yeah, Andy, but only on the sides. They put PRR on the ends.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Ted,
My experience with rivets started in the mid 1970's working on N&W
hopper cars. The side stakes used 3/4" and safety appliances 5/8",
which is still standard on new cars. I'll check some of the old box
cars we have at work tomorrow and let you know what I come up with.
Hope this helps some.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

Does anyone know or can someone direct me to a source of

information on

the typical (most common) size(s) of button head rivets used on box
cars and gondolas and cone head rivets used on tank cars? I

realize

that these things varied, but for the purposes of HO scale, the
differences would subtle to say the least. Any key dimension will

be

fine, e.g. the diameter of the button or cone or the diameter of

the

body (rivet post) can be used, as I have the AAR specifications

that

provide the formulas for calculating one dimension with another

given

dimension.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@s...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912

Ted Culotta asked:
Does anyone know or can someone direct me to a source of information on
the typical (most common) size(s) of button head rivets used on box
cars and gondolas and cone head rivets used on tank cars? I realize
that these things varied, but for the purposes of HO scale, the
differences would subtle to say the least. Any key dimension will be
fine, e.g. the diameter of the button or cone or the diameter of the
body (rivet post) can be used, as I have the AAR specifications that
provide the formulas for calculating one dimension with another given
dimension.

There is a very informative article by Gene Green in the April 97
Mainline Modeler, pp 47-49

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Thanks, Ben. I'll look around. I live in eastern Virginia and stock
cars are not real common models around here. But I lived several
years as a kid in Texas and Oklahoma and I remember the stock
car trains. And yes, I model in HO.
Gene Moser

From: "Benjamin Hom" <b.hom@...>
Date: 2005/02/02 Wed PM 09:20:37 EST
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] C&O Stock Car Models (was Re: ATSF Stock

cars)

Gene Moser asked:
"Does anybody here know of a reasonably prototypically correct
C&O stock car? All of the models that I know of lettered for C&O
currently available are not correct. Are there any that are close?
I'm not asking for rivets. Just cross bracing going in the correct
direction would be fine."

If that's all you're after, (assuming that you model in HO) the
Walthers/ex-Train Miniature Pratt truss stock car is your best

choice for a

C&O stock car stand-in:

C&O 95200-95249, built 1935-36 at General American; C&O

95250-95299, built

1937 at Greenville. Single deck car, 4/4 Dreadnaught ends,

Duryea cushion

underframe, Andrews trucks. Roof appears to be a 10-carline

Hutchins roof.

See Plate 46 of Freight Car Equipment of the Chesapeake &

Ohio Railway,

August 1, 1937 for photo and diagram. Additionally, the C&OHS

photo archive

database lists many photos of these cars, many showing the cars

during

construction.

The model's ends, roof, door, underframe and slat pattern are

incorrect;

however, it's still a Pratt truss car, and it beats using C&O painted

PRR

Class K7A stock cars (which don't look like anything EXCEPT a

K7A).

If you can live with the slat pattern, you can salvage the sides

from this

model or its AHM knockoff (not to be confused with the NYC

stockcars rebuilt

from USRA SS boxcars) and use it with the Accurail Hutchins

roof and 4/4

Dreadnaught ends from somewhere. The AHM knockoff's sides

actually give you

a better match to the 95200 series cars, but the roof and ends

are really

gross, which is why I recommended the Walthers car as a better

stand-in.

Ben Hom






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