Date   

T&NO (ex SA&AP) stock cars

Lee Gautreaux
 

Tony T. or others,

I have just taken the time to go through the SP Freight Cars Vol I
in detail in the stock car chapters to update the appropriate class
pages on my web site (see below:)

http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/spcars/byclass/stock/index.htm

and have a question or two:

-I show T&NO ex-SAAP 14810-14968 in my 12/1930 ORER. What were
their original SAAP numbers?

-I show T&NO 6075-6099 as 36'-6", 2596 ft3. I assume these were
renumbered to make room for T&NO 61xxx series box cars. Do you know
the original class(es?)

-I show T&NO S-40-13's listed with SP numbers 78000-78004,
presumably for renumbering in the early 1960's. Do you know if any
of these cars were actually renumbered as such or could these have
been proposed numbers that were never used?

I will be ordering Vol. III tomorrow. I'm very excited about this
new book.

Lee A. Gautreaux - The RailGoat
http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/


Re: Walthers Express Reefer = PFE?

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:

Studying the comments on the (BLI express) reefer I noticed something that not on the
web site about this car, "operating doors".
Wow, maybe the little guy throws out milk cans, too!

Walt


Re: Durability and accuracy of Tichy USRA hopper decals

kuban <kuban@...>
 

Mark,

I have recently built two Tichy War Emergency gons. I found the decals in both kits to be very brittle and difficult to handle. After losing a few decals, I solved the problem by overspraying the remaining decal sheet with Floquil KrystalCote.After allowing this to dry, the decals handled quite satisfactorily - much like Champ or Microscale out of the envelope. (Luckily, I had two sets to work with).

I cannot comment on the accuracy of the D&H hopper set, but I did find inaccuracies in the gondola decals and had to resort to my decal bone pile to improve upon the accuracy of the car lettering. Also, the print quality of the decals was less-than-desired. I would look for an alternate source of decals as I question that the kit supplied decals are worth the effort.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown, WV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 6:08 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Durability and accuracy of Tichy USRA hopper decals




Hello everyone,

I'm considering using Tichy #9029 decals for USRA and panel side
hoppers for an upcoming D&H hopper project. I've heard that these
decals don't take well to setting solutions. Does anyone who has
experience with these decals care to comment? Also, how accurate are
these decals?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden







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Re: Sunshine gons

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Dave Nelson:
Ted, do you know what quality product he gets using this process
as compared
to say, Al's way?
I'm not Ted, don't even play one on TV, but I'll take a shot at this.

Martin has been using the technique for several year for gons.
There's nothing intrinsically inferior about it - it's just flat
casting, but with the parts standing up instead of flat on the
master pattern plate. He could have done the ends and sides
individually, as he did with the side panels on his 10th anniversary
Santa Fe Ga-8 kit, but he (or Frank) chose to assemble them into a
box.

The mold is thicker than with conventional flat casting, but as long
as you put the filled mold in vacuum to remove air trapped in the
deep slots, everything's fine. You don't let the mold cure in
vacuum, of course, unless you're after foam parts.

Tom Madden


Re: Walthers Express Reefer = PFE?

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

A note on the BLI General American reefers. I received a new catalog
from them. It's really nice, sort of like Lionel catalogs of long ago.
Studying the comments on the reefer I noticed something that not on the web
site about this car, "operating doors". This prompted me to call them and
explain that I hoped they didn't look like the Atlas doors as I'm sure they
would lose a bunch of sales. I also told them I had cancelled my order
until I see good prototype shots of the model on the web site.
I doubt one person will get their attention but if all of you guys email
(or call) them they might think about it.
Also these cars are not due until June or so I was told.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Tichy decals

Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

Ditto for mine.

Request to Tichy for replacment went unanswered. So I purchased another set and oversprayed them lightly with Dullcote and managed to get them on the car. I would use them again in the future only as a last resort.

Frank Brua

----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Smith
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 6:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Tichy decals


Mark

All of mine came apart in the water until I painted them with the decal
saver.

Larry Smith


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Re: small roads freight car models

D. Scott Chatfield
 

As has already been noted, the EJ&E and IHB are hardly "small railroads." Indeed, they are officially Class 2 Terminal Lines (if I remember the terminology correctly). Terminal roads don't get a cut of the line haul, but they do charge their connections a "switching fee" which can be substantial.

I don't think Class 2s had to contribute cars to the national fleet in proportion to their revenue like Class 1s did, but many of them had significant originating traffic and it behooved them to own cars to protect the needs of their shippers. This would explain the EJ&E's and IHB large fleets. I also got the impression the NYC used the IHB as a way to make sure their steel-service empties got sent back to the Chicago end of the system rather than simply being dropped off at the nearest NYC interchange. which you could do with a car marked "NYC".

Class 3 lines, what are tradiationally thought of as shortlines, do not have to contribute cars to the national pool, and their connecting Class 1s have to supply cars for interchange traffic. Shortlines only had to own enough cars to meet their own captive movements, like LCL service, or in the case of the Yosemite Valley, limestone service between a quarry and an on-line Portland cement plant. Only shortlines that had a lot of originating traffic, or needed special cars to handle their interchange traffic, owned cars that freely roamed the national rail network. One example that comes to mind is Buffalo Creek, which served a bunch of flour mills. I gather the BCK didn't have a lot of interchangable cars until after WW2, however.

The other big exceptions to this rule were the switching lines owned by steel mills like USSteel and Bethlehem. They often had a bunch of gons to protect their originating finished steel products traffic.

It wasn't until the Incentive Per Diem craze of the '70s that many "normal" shortlines leased their own boxcars, and that was driven by other considerations, not originating traffic. Besides, that's well after the period covered by this list.

Scott C


Tichy decals

Larry Smith
 

Mark

All of mine came apart in the water until I painted them with the decal saver.

Larry Smith


Re: Sunshine gons

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Ted, do you know what quality product he gets using this process as compared
to say, Al's way?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Culotta [mailto:tculotta@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:16 AM


**** I have no knowledge of any of the issues or non-issues related to
casting of these cars. **** What I can offer is that he is pouring the
"one-piece" bodies that are not actually bodies, but four-sided, one-piece
castings of the sides and ends. Full blown one-piece casting is what Al and
Steve Funaro do and involves a more complex process than what martin did for
these gons.

Regards,
Ted Culotta


Re: Milw. Road Rib-Side Cars

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Ed,

Can't wait for that volume to go to print! Thanks to Mr. Wider
for doing this research.
Knowing that there were several lengths, widths, and patterns
of ribs over the various series of rib side cars, I understand that
the following may not be generally true. However, I've crawled
around on some of these cars including one (made into an ice cream
stand!) in Duluth, Minnesota, and also measured a rib side caboose
which is parked in New Lisbon, Wisconsin. I won't admit to climbing
on any others. ;> I have noticed that the lap joints do not occur
under every rib. I've observed that the panels overlap only every
other rib. I'm looking at a Bob's Photo shot of MILW 24711, which
has the "intermediate ribs", and the shadow under the rib is
darker/heavier, and also a little bit more jagged(indicating a lap
joint instead of just a joggle in the sheet metal)underneath the
(starting from the top)2nd, 4th, and 6th rib. The 1st, 3rd, and 5th
ribs are merely pressed into the middle of the sheet. Also, the
panel between the 6th rib and the side sill appears to be a separate
piece, with a "flat" as opposed to hat section joggle which laps
over the side sill.
The caboose exhibited spot welds, but also a lot of continuous
bead welds. There were bead welds at random locations along the lap
joints. Repairs maybe?
Also: Yes, the flat panels on the short ribbed cars are flush
with the ribbed panels, and do not appear to allow any additional
clearance; the grabs and ladders still extend out beyond the ribbed
panels. The flat panels that I've seen were bead welded to the
ribbed panels.

Hope this helps a little. Good luck on the article!

Regards,
Phil Buchwald


--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@s...> wrote:
STMFC,
I have been asked by Pat Wider to share with you the following
information he has compiled on Milwaukee Road rib-side cars. This
and
more will be in an article in a future volume of Railway Prototype
Cyclopedia. Please advise if you have any information to the
contrary.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


* The car sides were fabricated using narrow, individual,
longitudinal side-sheet strips or panels that extended between
the
doors and ends and were joined to one another using spot
welding. The
"ribs" were not separate pieces attached to the car sides but
were
actually corrugations pressed into the individual longitudinal
side-sheet panels. The panels overlapped one another with the
only
visible seams being created at the bottom of the panels just
below the
ribs, much like roof shingles.


Re: Pacific Electric B-50-13/14 SS cars with outside brake rigging

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

I am looking for some underbody or close up views of the outside
brake
rigging used on PE SS boxcars to allow negotiation of tight curves.
I'm interested in how to model the brake staff connections etc...
thanks in advance
Stefan Lerché
Duncan BC Canada
Try these:

http://home.att.net/~pullmanproject/PE_1.jpg
http://home.att.net/~pullmanproject/PE_2.jpg
http://home.att.net/~pullmanproject/PE_3.jpg

I took those at Perris CA in 1988. The bluish regions in PE_2 and
PE_3 are from dodging those areas to make the brake chain and
linkage more visible.

I'll leave those photos up for a day or two.

Tom Madden


Durability and accuracy of Tichy USRA hopper decals

Mark Heiden
 

Hello everyone,

I'm considering using Tichy #9029 decals for USRA and panel side
hoppers for an upcoming D&H hopper project. I've heard that these
decals don't take well to setting solutions. Does anyone who has
experience with these decals care to comment? Also, how accurate are
these decals?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


Pacific Electric B-50-13/14 SS cars with outside brake rigging

oliver
 

I am looking for some underbody or close up views of the outside brake
rigging used on PE SS boxcars to allow negotiation of tight curves.
I'm interested in how to model the brake staff connections etc...
thanks in advance
Stefan Lerché
Duncan BC Canada


Re: Sunshine Naperville 2004 Gondolas

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

no one can see it anyway.

Did Ted write that????
Clark propst


Re: PRR Stock Cars - Final Dates in Revenue Service

Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
 

Ben,
April 1952 ORER: 648317-648326 3 cars
January 1953 ORER: 648326 1 car
Hope this helps,
Larry Grubb

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...> wrote:

Forgot one thing that would make it easier - here are the number
series:

PRR 648314-648338, K7 (7/1950 - 15, none listed in 1/1955)
PRR 134079-135499, K7A (10/1963 - 3, none listed in 4/1968)
PRR 128079-129078, K8 (10/1963 - 2, none listed in 4/1968)


Ben Hom




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Re: Lumber trains and SP box cars from Fraley

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:

While beginning a look through my Fraley for autos & auto parts, I notice
three "lumber trains" heading east. The consists of these three trains are
interesting primarily because of the presence and lack thereof of SP cars.
The first train on Mar 3, '49, was 77 cars in length and contained 27 SP
cars carrying lumber. Of the 27, 25 were box cars and 2 were flats. Of the
25 box cars, 9 were 50 ft long. Two additional SP box cars were in the
train...40 fters carrying paper and something unreadable. There were 21 cars
of other RRs in the train carrying lumber. Thus, 35% of the train were SP
box cars, 32.5% were SP box cars carrying lumber and 62% were cars carrying
lumber. Compare this to a train on Apr 7, '49, which contained 98 cars. Of
these, 58 carried lumber and 4 were SP box cars. One more SP box car was in
the train giving SP box cars a 5% presence....closer to the national
average. The third train, on Apr 16, 1949, contained 93 cars. Of these, 34
were SP box cars, 32 carrying lumber. 27 other RR cars were also carrying
lumber. 36.6% of the cars were SP box cars, 34.4% were SP box cars carrying
carrying lumber. 27 other cars were also carrying lumber giving lumber
content cars 63.4% of the train. Trains 1 & 3 are remarkably similar in
content...as far as lumber and SP box cars is concerned. I am surprised at
the small number of flat cars carrying lumber.
Most of the eastbound "Lumber Trains" also had "Reefers" in them in my Fall 1947 Fraley. Indeed, "lumber" may have been the interloper into the "Reefer Trains" - Indeed, all the "Lumber" and "Reefer Trains" had lumber and produce intermingled - at least during the Fall of 1947.

In total, there were 267 cars carrying lumber eastbound of which 168 were "XM" boxcars; 16 "XMR" boxcars; 6 "XAR" boxcars; 6 "XA" boxcars; 1 "XAF" boxcar; 1 "XAB" boxcars; 2 "VM" ventilated boxcars; 12 Stockcars; 20 Gondolas; and 35 Flat Cars.

Of the 35 Flats, four were owned by the UP; six by the SP; four each by the PM and C&NW; two each by the NYC, PRR and L&N; and one each for the MONON, ERIE, B&LE, EJ&E, C&O, ACL, M&SL, NP, GN, CRI&P, and CN.

Of the 20 Gons, one was owned by the UP; three by the PRR; two each for the CB&Q, P&LE and SOU; and one each for the L&N, IC, CG, WAB, NYC, B&LE, EJ&E, RDG, KCS and SP.

Of the 12 Stock Cars, two were owned by the UP; three by the C&NW; two by the NP and SP; one each by the PRR, L&N and CB&Q.

The 2 Ventilated Boxcars were owned by the ACL and SAL.

Of the 6 "XA" Autocars, two each were owned by the PRR and CRI&P; and one apiece for the MILW and SLSF.

Of the 6 "XAR" Boxcars, two were owned by the ATSF; and one each by the MILW, CB&Q, SSW and MP.

The 1 "XAB" was owned by the SOU, and the 1 XAF" Furniture car was owned by the CG.

Of the 16 "XMR's, eight were owned by the UP; three each by the NYC and NYC; and one each for the SLSF and MILW.

Of the 168 "XM" General Service Boxcars, fourteen were owned by the UP; sixteen by the SP; twenty-eight by the PRR; thirteen by the NYC; eight by the SOU; six each by the WAB, CRI&P, and MP (incl. subs.); five each by the MILW, NP, and SLSF; four each by the B&O, C&O, ACL, and SOO; three each for the W&LE, IC, L&N, CB&Q and GN; two each for the B&M, GTW, N&W, CMO, C&NW and T&NO; and one each for the MEC, ERIE, IHB, LV, DT&I, NKP, WRA, ATSF, L&A and CP. There were two boxcars which could not be traced.


Fraley uses several terms for contents that I'm not sure of. He uses "CO"
for company [ UP ] and adds "L" or "lump" followed by "Coal" for company
lump coal, presumably for steam loco use. He uses "Co RM" or "RM company".
I'm not sure what the "RM" is. He also uses "Xa", "Xb", "Xg", "Xh" and "Xr".
No idea what they mean. I'm reasonably sure "Xt" is for empty.
"XA" - Empty Autocar
"XA" - Empty Boxcar
"XC" - Empty Coal Car
"XD" or "XDD" - Empty Double Deck Stockcar
"XG" - Empty Gon
"XH" - Empty Hopper
"XR" - Empty Reefer
"XT" - Empty Tank Car

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: History of corrugated box car ends?

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

I didn't mean to confuse people by implying the "INDY" end was a
corrugated steel end. That's the end I was searching for at the
patent site.

Bob Witt

CBarkan@a... wrote:
To give credit where credit is due, I think I learned the term from
Al Westerfield. The "Indy" end was not corrugated of course, it was a
particular design of wood and steel framing and reinforcement.<


Re: PRR Stock Cars - Final Dates in Revenue Service

Matt Herson <trains@...>
 

Ben,

Have the following information:

PRR 648314-648338, K7 (7/1950 - 15, none listed in 1/1955)
1/1953 - 1 (648326)

PRR 134079-135499, K7A (10/1963 - 3, none listed in 4/1968)
1/1966 - 3 (134647-135076)

PRR 128079-129078, K8 (10/1963 - 2, none listed in 4/1968)
1/1966 - 1 (128918)


Matt Herson


Milw. Road Rib-Side Cars

Ed Hawkins
 

STMFC,
I have been asked by Pat Wider to share with you the following
information he has compiled on Milwaukee Road rib-side cars. This and
more will be in an article in a future volume of Railway Prototype
Cyclopedia. Please advise if you have any information to the contrary.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Over the past year I have been researching the Milwaukee rib-side cars
for an upcoming article in RP CYC. With the information that I have in
hand, I have noted a number of fundamental errors and omissions in the
discourse concerning these cars. The most notable are:

* The car sides were fabricated using narrow, individual,
longitudinal side-sheet strips or panels that extended between the
doors and ends and were joined to one another using spot welding. The
"ribs" were not separate pieces attached to the car sides but were
actually corrugations pressed into the individual longitudinal
side-sheet panels. The panels overlapped one another with the only
visible seams being created at the bottom of the panels just below the
ribs, much like roof shingles. These design features are attested to
by several photos that I have as well as a detail drawing in the 1946
CBC. The integral "ribs" obviously served to stiffen the long narrow
panels.
* The narrow vertical panels (corner and door pans would be the
correct terminology) at the car ends and adjacent to the doors first
made their appearance circa June 1940 on 40' box cars rather than in
1941 on the 50' box cars and 40' auto cars. I have a builders' photo
of car 20550 that clearly has the side pans. According to an article
in Railway Mechanical Engineer (RME), the side pans were added to aid
assembly and to strengthen the cars in both high stress areas. They
were not added to provide greater clearance in the areas of the side
ladders and grabs. This is born out since car 20550 had an inside
width of 9' 2" rather than the later 9' 6". It appears that for a
period in 1940, cars with and without side pans were being built since
a builder's photo of a 40' car built several months later does not
show them. As far as I know, it is possible that 20550 was a
one-of-a-kind prototype rather than one of several similar cars wth
side pans.
* The extreme width of these cars was not over the ladders,
instead it remained over the door fixtures for both designs:

Width Over Ladders: 1939 Cars - 10' 4 15/16"
Width Over Ladders: 1944 Cars - 10' 7 3/8" D = 2
7/16"
Width Over Creco Fixtures: 1939 Cars - 10' 7 7/8"
Width Over Camel Fixtures: 1939 Cars - 10' 7 3/4"
Width Over Door Fixtures: 1944 Cars - 10' 8"
Width Over (Side) Sheets: 1939 Cars - 9' 9 1/2"
Width Over (Side) Sheets: 1944 Cars - 10' 1 1/2" D = 4"
Width Over Bumps (Ribs): 1939 Cars - 9' 10 7/8"
Width Over Bumps (Ribs): 1944 Cars - 10' 2 5/8" D = 3
3/4"
Inside Width: 1939 Cars - 9' 2"
Inside Width: 1944 Cars - 9' 6" D = 4"

* According to RME, the increase in width of 4" was secured as
follows: ".....it will be noted that the limiting width in this car,
as in practically all box cars, is the distance over door roller
housings. The increased capacity in this instance is secured primarily
by revising the side door and door fixture construction so as to
permit designing the car 4 in. wider on the inside than is the case
with the A.A.R. standard car. The rollers in this design are placed
underneath the door and the Camel door fixtures and operating
mechanism are redesigned for a minimum projection beyond the outer
door surface. The outer surfaces of the side sheets also are spaced so
as to bring the width over side ladders just within the required
limit." So the side pans helped achieve the greater capacity, but
that was not their primary purpose. At the same time, the inside
height was increased from 10' 6" to 10' 9".
* The "leak-proof" doors of these cars were not manufactured by
the railroad, instead they were manufactured by Youngstown (2 types),
Creco (later Superior), and International Steel (Nystrom) as is stated
on the railroad's car diagrams, RME and Railway Age articles, and an
ad in a CBC. At least some Youngstown doors on these cars were riveted
rather than welded construction as is made clear by detail photos in
my possession. A number of side doors had integral grain loading doors
and I have the car numbers so-equipped. The placard boards were moved
from the doors to the side-sheet panels when the cars were widened to
9" 6" IW in order to not exceed the maximum allowable width.
* There were two designs of Murphy double-panel welded roofs
applied to these cars. The changeover was made when the cars were
widened. In December 1948 and later, the cars received diagonal-panel
roofs as well as Morton running boards.
* Most cars through 1944 had 8-rung side ladders (excepting the 25
express cars). Afterwards, they had 9-rung side ladders.
* It appears that when new, virtually all of these cars (excepting
the 25 express cars and the 21188-22187 box car series) had chilled
iron wheels.
* Car numbers 20550, and 21163-21187 had provisions for
double-deck anchoring devices. These were carried externally just
below the doors. The are very visible from the side.
* Car number 19039, had CTSE reporting marks.

The so-called Nystrom doors were manufactured by the International
Steel Company of Evansville, Indiana. As far as I can tell, they were
only on select cars within the 25538-28559 series built from 12/48 to
7/49. Others in that series received Youngstown doors. Some of each
were grain doors. International Steel also supplied the side-sheet
panels for the later cars. Many of the original doors were replaced in
the 1950s(?) with Youngstown Lightweight (postwar) Doors as indicated
in several photos. End lumber doors were eliminated from new cars in
1948. Many photographs as well as additional detailed information
regarding build dates, number series, door types, Olympian slogans,
running boards, hand brakes, and grain doors will be included in my
forthcoming article.

Pat Wider


Re: Lumber trains and SP box cars from Fraley

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
Fraley uses several terms for contents that I'm not sure of. He uses "CO"
for company [ UP ] and adds "L" or "lump" followed by "Coal" for company
lump coal, presumably for steam loco use. He uses "Co RM" or "RM company".
I'm not sure what the "RM" is.
This might be "roadway material," a term also used on SP and perhaps with origins in the Harriman era. Most "general purpose" boxes and flats in MOW service on SP were called "roadway flat" or "roadway box" for a similar reason.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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