Date   

Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert





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Re: Vertical staff brakes

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:
Tank cars with vertical staff brakes were certainly in
service in the 1990s. I'm not aware that they were literally outlawed,
though other features of an older car may have been.
I offer some clarification about the terminology used to describe hand
brakes on freight cars. Recently after spending a day going through
various Railway Age volumes from the 1920s I noticed that the trade
press seem to describe hand brakes by the position of the wheel rather
than the position of the staff. This would mean those descriptions
are just opposite of what we commonly use. The text described
"modern" power brakes as "vertical" and older styles with wheels on
vertical staffs as "horizontal".

I frankly admit that my own field notes, made before I knew alone else
who was interested in freight cars, describe the hand brake
arrangements by the position of the staff.

Do others have different information?

Regards,

Bob Witt


Re: Question about some transition era freight car uses.

dehusman <dehusman@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Paul Gehrett <pgehrett@c...> wrote:
Brewery
=======================
Boxcars (grain, bottles, beer)
Plug door boxcars (beer)
Insulated boxcars (beer)
Reefers (beer)
Hopper or gon (coal, broken bottles)
======================
Grain industry
======================
Boxcars
======================
Bridge & Iron works
======================
Flat cars
Gondolas
Well cars
======================
Paper & timber industry
=======================
log cars
log flats
pulpwood flats
chip hoppers
bulkhead flats
flatcars
boxcars
plug door boxcars
tank cars
kaolin boxcars
=======================
Thanks to anyone that can help provide information
about freight car movements into and out of these
types of facilities. Or, if there's a website or
another yahoo group that can help, please pass that
info on as well.
=======================
The operations-industries Yahoo group would have more of this info.

Dave H.


Re: Moloco Diagonal Panel Roof (with overhanging eaves)

rwitt_2000 <rmwitt@...>
 

"Gatwood, Elden" wrote:
... but I neglected to get the date of first use on the prototype,
and on what. Any definitive date?
I am sure there are other examples, but ~1956 the B&O started using
"ZU" overhanging roofs with their Class M-65 50-ft double-door box
cars. The next group were the Class M-66 40-ft box cars built in
1957. The Class M-67 also built in 1957 were IH 10"-0" PS-1 cars, but
used the P-S version of the "ZU" roof.

Earlier versions of roofs with overhanging eaves appeared on the NYC
all-steel, USRA clone box cars. All steel refrigerator cars
introduced in the mid-1930s also used roofs with overhanging eaves.
It was illustrated as an alternate design in the CBC from the 1940s,
but rarely adopted.

Can anyone explain why this roof style was adopted for steel reefers,
but not for box cars until almost 20 years later?

Bob Witt


Red Ball A A R Boxcar Kit (X29)

Edwin C. Kirstatter <Q1xaMacArthur1@...>
 

I have a Red Ball kit number K-197 for a X29 style box car. I do not have
its original box but it came from M. Dale Newton Co. sometime in the late
fifties.

This kit is not the usual wood kit with printed paper sides. This kit
has the usual wood parts for roof,
floor, sides and three spacer blocks to build up a box to which you
applied wrappers and a wood roof walk. NO instructions! NO decals, NO
trucks, NO couplers of any kind!

The wrappers consist of thin Aluminum stampings with a gummed backing.
The sides, roof and ends
are embossed with two sizes of rivets and plate seams. In the space where
the door would go is
stamped "AAR, Boxcar, sides". And in the middle of roof it is stamped
"Roof". As if we couldn't
figure that out!

The only castings included are: two Youngstown type doors and a
underframe and two body bolsters.
And of course the assorted staples to be used as sill steps and hand
grabs.

The embossing would have to be trimmed to size then bent to fit around
the wood box. If you guys like to build kits, You would Love this one.

I also have the Red Ball PRR X23 box car and F25 well flat car.

Edwin C. Kirstatter.


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Shawn:



When an industry was within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" any carries
serving that "Switching Limits" was considered to be serving that industry.
In your example the SP physically served the industry, but WP could solicit
the long haul on any inbound or outbound traffic and all SP got for the
handling was a switching charge. If on the other hand the industry was not
within the "Reciprocal Switching Limits" then the SP would get a division of
the line haul revenue.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 2:41 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain



List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert






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oups/S=1705169725:HM/EXP=1110926504/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:/www.n
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Re: Digest Number 2347

Lou <loumickie@...>
 

Sorry Guys,

Rob is right, I should have said Red Caboose. I do appreciate the
information about the vertical brake staffs - I'll try to be more careful in
my future posts.

Thanks,
Lou Nigro

_______________________________________________________________________

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 09:21:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Rob Daniels <shalizadad@...>
Subject: RE: Red Ball "NYC 40 ft Sheathed Boxcar (X-29)"

Okay, just a wild guess here -- did someone mean to
say "Red Caboose" and not "Red Ball?"

Rob Daniels
New York, NY


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Gary Roe
 

Shawn asked
Is there a document or publication that explains the details of "reciprocal switching"?



Shawn,

Yes, there is. John Armstrong's book "The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does" will explain it very nicely. My copy is packed away for an impending move, or I would quote from it for you.

gary roe


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
 

Shawn

I have a Western Pacific Industrial Guide, dated July 1974. It covers the
Western Pacific, Tidewater Southern, Sacramento Northern and industries
located on railroads in the same city.

Randy


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Rob Adams
 

Shawn;

I can't speak to the specifics of the WP/SP arrangements, or to whether this is type of Reciprocal Agreement you are referring, but some of the midwest roads that I'm familiar with would enter into agreements whereby one road would switch certain industries one period (e.g. year), and the other road would handle it the next. I suspect these practices varied a great deal, and may have depended to some extent on how much traffic was generated and how it was ultimately to be routed. Like you, I'd really like to know more about this.

Kind regards, Rob Adams

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


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Re: Question about some transition era freight car uses.

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Paul;

I have been researching the iron and steel industry's connections to the
railroads for some time. While the question is rather broad (if you
narrowed it down by using the names of the real industry we could
probably provide more), a "Bridge and Iron Works" may have produced
their own iron, used iron provided by others, or even received iron
shapes for assembly into bridge girders and allied structures.
Typically, while the name "Bridge and Iron Works" could have carried
over into more "modern" times, the term is somewhat archaic for the
1950's. The term "works" usually means someone who fashioned shapes
into a finished piece of a structure, but it could also be used for
someone that just made things from iron, like a foundry. It depended on
what they thought they could do for business.

An integrated facility may have received iron ore, flux stone, coke, and
additives, in open hoppers and even some in box cars or gondolas. They
could have a blast furnace on-site, from which they would get hot metal
(hot iron). A bridge-maker that utilized iron for the final structure
would not be likely by the 1950's. That would mean they would have to
convert the iron to steel by adding scrap and other additives, in
probably an Open Hearth process (BOFs and Electric furnaces were not in
common use in the 1950's, particularly by anyone other than the big
guys; USS, Bethlehem, etc.). The hot iron was shipped to the hearth in
refractory-lined cars that either looked like a pot on wheels, or in a
bottle/torpedo car. After conversion to steel, in which a lot of scrap
was added to the charge, they would cast slabs, billets, or blooms, and
would need a rolling and treatment facility to create the shapes needed
by the assembly folks. Long strips of steel, and various angles and
other shapes, would have been rolled, formed, and treated, then sent via
gon to the assembly area for assembly of finished products. By the 50's
welding was coming into its own as a viable procedure for big products,
so you may have found either riveted or welded girders.

Girders, X-frames, floor assemblies, and other structures, were commonly
shipped via flats and gons. If the structure was long, it might be
shipped in a drop-end gon (or flat) with idler cars on either, or just
one, end. There are detailed AAR drawings that show how this would have
been done, and you can get copies from the NMRA or other folks that have
the pamphlets.

For cars, you would want lots of open hoppers for the ore, flux, and
coke, some boxcars, and in-plant (only) bottles, slag cars, slab cars,
and others. For loads out; gons, gons, more gons, and flats. You would
need acid cars for the treatment aspect, and gons with mill rolls coming
in and out. Hoppers carrying waste also made their rounds.

I have a couple digital photos of loaded cars that I can send you, if
interested, but they are proprietary, so you can't publish them. When
you narrow down what you want to do, we can probably refine this even
more.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Gehrett [mailto:pgehrett@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:31 PM
To: Steam Freight Car List
Subject: [STMFC] Question about some transition era freight car uses.


Hi Folks,

I'm part of a club that is in the midst of designing 2
new layouts. We want these layouts to be operations
based. We want to know the particular types of
freight cars that would be used to service some of the
industries that we want on the layout. For most of
these industries, some cars types are rather obvious.
We're also interested in knowing if there were any
"specialty" freight cars that were unique to the
industry. The general time frame for our layouts is
the 1950's. Finally, when did the grain industry
start using covered hoppers?

The list of industries is:

Brewery
Grain industry
Bridge & Iron works
Paper & timber industry

Thanks to anyone that can help provide information
about freight car movements into and out of these
types of facilities. Or, if there's a website or
another yahoo group that can help, please pass that
info on as well.

Thanks,

Paul Gehrett




Yahoo! Groups Links


"Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


Red Ball PRR X23

ed_mines
 

Red Ball had a cast metal PRR X23 kir.

Ed Mines


I/M FGEX Reefer

Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

This month's RMJ has a lengthy article on the FGEX reefers and a description
of the forthcoming IM model. No mention is made on the IM website of this
car. Does anyone know anything about it beyond what is said in RMJ?


regards,

Andy Miller


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

centga@...
 

In a message dated 3/14/2005 8:13:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
raildata@... writes:
Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for
the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about
I think a similar arraignment existed on the NF&G between the C&O and the
NYC. Todd Horton


Question about some transition era freight car uses.

Paul Gehrett
 

Hi Folks,

I'm part of a club that is in the midst of designing 2
new layouts. We want these layouts to be operations
based. We want to know the particular types of
freight cars that would be used to service some of the
industries that we want on the layout. For most of
these industries, some cars types are rather obvious.
We're also interested in knowing if there were any
"specialty" freight cars that were unique to the
industry. The general time frame for our layouts is
the 1950's. Finally, when did the grain industry
start using covered hoppers?

The list of industries is:

Brewery
Grain industry
Bridge & Iron works
Paper & timber industry

Thanks to anyone that can help provide information
about freight car movements into and out of these
types of facilities. Or, if there's a website or
another yahoo group that can help, please pass that
info on as well.

Thanks,

Paul Gehrett


Re: Intermountain NP Reefers

Paul Lyons
 

Tom, Are the NP reefers going to be all RTR, or can we get kits?
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Shawn Beckert
 

Dave, I still had your old e-mail in the address file; that's now updated.
I'll be sending you some data shortly (I'm scarfing lunch at the moment).
We'll start with Oakland - that and Salt Lake City had a huge amount of
listings - and see if we can come up with a date of some kind.

Shawn Beckert

-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-2554753-39483-1110829012-shawn.beckert=disney.com@....
yahoo.com
[mailto:sentto-2554753-39483-1110829012-shawn.beckert=disney.com@returns
.groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E



Shawn, I'd be able to help -- and keen to do so. I have WP industry
listings from the mid 50's and early 60's so we can compare your undated
list to them. FWIW, your document could be as late as 1981... If the WP
still had some typewritter ribbons left they'd have used them up first
before taking delivery on a computer. 8-)

You have my e-mail?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]

Now, here's the catch, and why I need the help of the WP gurus on the STMFC
list: There is absolutely NO DATE on this publication.
Not anywhere, which is amazing (to me, anyway).






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

raildata@...
 

Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Re: Red Ball "NYC 40 ft Sheathed Boxcar (X-29)"

jerryglow2
 

They did. I had a plastic version of the castings.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:
Red Ball never did a cast metal X29 kit, though I wouldn't be
surprised if
they did paper sides in the early days of HO<
I think it might have been an X23. I seem to remember that
Red Ball had
one of those that used cast sides.

Jon Miller

157601 - 157620 of 197047