Date   

Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Gary Roe
 

Shawn asked
Is there a document or publication that explains the details of "reciprocal switching"?



Shawn,

Yes, there is. John Armstrong's book "The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does" will explain it very nicely. My copy is packed away for an impending move, or I would quote from it for you.

gary roe


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Randy Williamson <pennsy@...>
 

Shawn

I have a Western Pacific Industrial Guide, dated July 1974. It covers the
Western Pacific, Tidewater Southern, Sacramento Northern and industries
located on railroads in the same city.

Randy


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Rob Adams
 

Shawn;

I can't speak to the specifics of the WP/SP arrangements, or to whether this is type of Reciprocal Agreement you are referring, but some of the midwest roads that I'm familiar with would enter into agreements whereby one road would switch certain industries one period (e.g. year), and the other road would handle it the next. I suspect these practices varied a great deal, and may have depended to some extent on how much traffic was generated and how it was ultimately to be routed. Like you, I'd really like to know more about this.

Kind regards, Rob Adams

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


*Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
ADVERTISEMENT
click here <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299jtbfp/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1705169725:HM/EXP=1110926504/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Yahoo! Groups Links*

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...
<mailto:STMFC-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


Re: Question about some transition era freight car uses.

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Paul;

I have been researching the iron and steel industry's connections to the
railroads for some time. While the question is rather broad (if you
narrowed it down by using the names of the real industry we could
probably provide more), a "Bridge and Iron Works" may have produced
their own iron, used iron provided by others, or even received iron
shapes for assembly into bridge girders and allied structures.
Typically, while the name "Bridge and Iron Works" could have carried
over into more "modern" times, the term is somewhat archaic for the
1950's. The term "works" usually means someone who fashioned shapes
into a finished piece of a structure, but it could also be used for
someone that just made things from iron, like a foundry. It depended on
what they thought they could do for business.

An integrated facility may have received iron ore, flux stone, coke, and
additives, in open hoppers and even some in box cars or gondolas. They
could have a blast furnace on-site, from which they would get hot metal
(hot iron). A bridge-maker that utilized iron for the final structure
would not be likely by the 1950's. That would mean they would have to
convert the iron to steel by adding scrap and other additives, in
probably an Open Hearth process (BOFs and Electric furnaces were not in
common use in the 1950's, particularly by anyone other than the big
guys; USS, Bethlehem, etc.). The hot iron was shipped to the hearth in
refractory-lined cars that either looked like a pot on wheels, or in a
bottle/torpedo car. After conversion to steel, in which a lot of scrap
was added to the charge, they would cast slabs, billets, or blooms, and
would need a rolling and treatment facility to create the shapes needed
by the assembly folks. Long strips of steel, and various angles and
other shapes, would have been rolled, formed, and treated, then sent via
gon to the assembly area for assembly of finished products. By the 50's
welding was coming into its own as a viable procedure for big products,
so you may have found either riveted or welded girders.

Girders, X-frames, floor assemblies, and other structures, were commonly
shipped via flats and gons. If the structure was long, it might be
shipped in a drop-end gon (or flat) with idler cars on either, or just
one, end. There are detailed AAR drawings that show how this would have
been done, and you can get copies from the NMRA or other folks that have
the pamphlets.

For cars, you would want lots of open hoppers for the ore, flux, and
coke, some boxcars, and in-plant (only) bottles, slag cars, slab cars,
and others. For loads out; gons, gons, more gons, and flats. You would
need acid cars for the treatment aspect, and gons with mill rolls coming
in and out. Hoppers carrying waste also made their rounds.

I have a couple digital photos of loaded cars that I can send you, if
interested, but they are proprietary, so you can't publish them. When
you narrow down what you want to do, we can probably refine this even
more.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Gehrett [mailto:pgehrett@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:31 PM
To: Steam Freight Car List
Subject: [STMFC] Question about some transition era freight car uses.


Hi Folks,

I'm part of a club that is in the midst of designing 2
new layouts. We want these layouts to be operations
based. We want to know the particular types of
freight cars that would be used to service some of the
industries that we want on the layout. For most of
these industries, some cars types are rather obvious.
We're also interested in knowing if there were any
"specialty" freight cars that were unique to the
industry. The general time frame for our layouts is
the 1950's. Finally, when did the grain industry
start using covered hoppers?

The list of industries is:

Brewery
Grain industry
Bridge & Iron works
Paper & timber industry

Thanks to anyone that can help provide information
about freight car movements into and out of these
types of facilities. Or, if there's a website or
another yahoo group that can help, please pass that
info on as well.

Thanks,

Paul Gehrett




Yahoo! Groups Links


"Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

Is there a document or publication that explains the details
of "reciprocal switching"? This Western Pacific circular that
I'm wading through seems to give witness to a lot of this.

An example: The Judson-Pacific Murphy Company (a steel plant)
had two tracks in Emeryville with a combined capacity of 80
cars. That's a heckuva lot of gondolas and boxcars moving in
and out. This whole industry is listed on the tracks of the
Southern Pacific, yet the circular shows this as being served
by the Western Pacific.

How did this work? If the trackage was owned by the Espee, I
can't imagine them standing by while WP took the business of
a very large shipper away from them. Money must have changed
hands for the owner of the trackage (SP) to allow a competitor
(WP) to service one of their on-line industries.

Can someone clarify how this sort of transaction was done?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


Red Ball PRR X23

ed_mines
 

Red Ball had a cast metal PRR X23 kir.

Ed Mines


I/M FGEX Reefer

Andy Miller <asmiller@...>
 

This month's RMJ has a lengthy article on the FGEX reefers and a description
of the forthcoming IM model. No mention is made on the IM website of this
car. Does anyone know anything about it beyond what is said in RMJ?


regards,

Andy Miller


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

centga@...
 

In a message dated 3/14/2005 8:13:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
raildata@... writes:
Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for
the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about
I think a similar arraignment existed on the NF&G between the C&O and the
NYC. Todd Horton


Question about some transition era freight car uses.

Paul Gehrett
 

Hi Folks,

I'm part of a club that is in the midst of designing 2
new layouts. We want these layouts to be operations
based. We want to know the particular types of
freight cars that would be used to service some of the
industries that we want on the layout. For most of
these industries, some cars types are rather obvious.
We're also interested in knowing if there were any
"specialty" freight cars that were unique to the
industry. The general time frame for our layouts is
the 1950's. Finally, when did the grain industry
start using covered hoppers?

The list of industries is:

Brewery
Grain industry
Bridge & Iron works
Paper & timber industry

Thanks to anyone that can help provide information
about freight car movements into and out of these
types of facilities. Or, if there's a website or
another yahoo group that can help, please pass that
info on as well.

Thanks,

Paul Gehrett


Re: Intermountain NP Reefers

Paul Lyons
 

Tom, Are the NP reefers going to be all RTR, or can we get kits?
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Shawn Beckert
 

Dave, I still had your old e-mail in the address file; that's now updated.
I'll be sending you some data shortly (I'm scarfing lunch at the moment).
We'll start with Oakland - that and Salt Lake City had a huge amount of
listings - and see if we can come up with a date of some kind.

Shawn Beckert

-----Original Message-----
From:
sentto-2554753-39483-1110829012-shawn.beckert=disney.com@....
yahoo.com
[mailto:sentto-2554753-39483-1110829012-shawn.beckert=disney.com@returns
.groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of Dave Nelson
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:36 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E



Shawn, I'd be able to help -- and keen to do so. I have WP industry
listings from the mid 50's and early 60's so we can compare your undated
list to them. FWIW, your document could be as late as 1981... If the WP
still had some typewritter ribbons left they'd have used them up first
before taking delivery on a computer. 8-)

You have my e-mail?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]

Now, here's the catch, and why I need the help of the WP gurus on the STMFC
list: There is absolutely NO DATE on this publication.
Not anywhere, which is amazing (to me, anyway).






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: "Reciprocal" Switching - Please Explain

raildata@...
 

Near Mingo Junction, Ohio there was at least one bracnh leading to a coal
mine where the NKP operated the branch 6 months of the year and the PRR for the
other 6 months. Have no idea how this arrangment to the "Dorothy Mine" came
about.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


Re: Red Ball "NYC 40 ft Sheathed Boxcar (X-29)"

jerryglow2
 

They did. I had a plastic version of the castings.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:
Red Ball never did a cast metal X29 kit, though I wouldn't be
surprised if
they did paper sides in the early days of HO<
I think it might have been an X23. I seem to remember that
Red Ball had
one of those that used cast sides.

Jon Miller


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Bob Webber <zephyr1@...>
 

heh heh ... Welcome to the side show that never ends....

Is there any other industry that refused to date anything as overwhelmingly as the railroad industry? Of course, I ascribe the fact that the D&RG(W) didn't do it to the fact that at the time they were in the throes of the WP and/or the MP during the period. And as can readily be seen, THEY didn't see fit to date anything either.

I have a D&RGW publication that is similar in nature, but is a bound and printed thing as opposed to a typewritten thing. It has no date, but proudly indicates the recent purchase of new "Mountain" locomotives (the 1800 4-8-4's - which is a whole 'nother story). from which we can tell about when the thing was issued. But not quite as there are other facilities in the publication that conflict with the date one might put on it. But it too provides like information (as an aside, Ted Schempf of Rails Unlimited has been publishing/republishing various freight guides with similar information and has them for several roads including (of course) the Milwaukee but also the CRIP and some others).

The best way to tell, unless someone has the publication list (that lists the circulars and when published - which the CSRRM should have - is to determine by facilities and do some extrapolation. The other, perhaps more entertaining method is look for other circulars and see if you can snare a date from them. Always assuming of course that no one here has better ideas.


At 01:17 PM 3/14/2005, Shawn wrote:
<snip>

THE WESTERN PACIFIC RAILROAD COMPANY
SACRAMENTO NORTHERN RAILWAY
TIDEWATER SOUTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY

CIRCULAR No. 167-E


Industries Located At Points Served
Team Track Facilities
Ramps And Platforms
Track Scales
Icing Stations
Interchange Points

This book is large - 170 pages plus maps - and lists EVERY
industry and rail connection served by the WP and its various
subsidiaries.
<snip>


Re: Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Shawn, I'd be able to help -- and keen to do so. I have WP industry
listings from the mid 50's and early 60's so we can compare your undated
list to them. FWIW, your document could be as late as 1981... If the WP
still had some typewritter ribbons left they'd have used them up first
before taking delivery on a computer. 8-)

You have my e-mail?

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:Shawn.Beckert@...]

Now, here's the catch, and why I need the help of the WP gurus on the STMFC
list: There is absolutely NO DATE on this publication.
Not anywhere, which is amazing (to me, anyway).


Western Pacific Circular No. 167-E

Shawn Beckert
 

Fellow Listers,

I had a good time at Winterail this past weekend - but I
had an even better time at the CSRM Library in Sacramento.
One of the large documents that Ellen so kindly copied for
me is titled thusly:

THE WESTERN PACIFIC RAILROAD COMPANY
SACRAMENTO NORTHERN RAILWAY
TIDEWATER SOUTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY

CIRCULAR No. 167-E


Industries Located At Points Served
Team Track Facilities
Ramps And Platforms
Track Scales
Icing Stations
Interchange Points

This book is large - 170 pages plus maps - and lists EVERY
industry and rail connection served by the WP and its various
subsidiaries. Even more useful: it lists the industries located
on the tracks of other railroads (SP, ATSF, UP, CCT, etc.) that
the WP-SN-TS had reciprocal switching agreements with.

Now, here's the catch, and why I need the help of the WP gurus
on the STMFC list: There is absolutely NO DATE on this publication.
Not anywhere, which is amazing (to me, anyway). The whole thing
was done on a typewriter, which probably means it predates the
computer era, though maybe not the diesel era (hard to tell). Are
any of the WP guys here familiar with this book, and can you give
ma a ballpark idea of when it was published?

Thanks ever so,

Shawn Beckert


Re: Moloco Diagonal Panel Roof

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Guys;
I saw one in person at the WPM at it was simply beautiful, but I
neglected to get the date of first use on the prototype, and on what.
Any definitive date?

Thanks,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: dti_nut [mailto:Brian_Everett@...]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 9:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Moloco Diagonal Panel Roof



Brian,

These are a "LATE" model of the Stanray roof.
They come without roofwalk supports, but Nick is also providing a
seperate detail for the supports.

I have a coup[le of these, and they are very nice roofs.
Regards,
Brian Everett

"Brian J Carlson" <brian@b...> wrote:

Moloco has an ad for a Stanray overhanging Diagonal Roof.
Has anyone seen this part? Is it appropriate for Steam Era boxcars?
Thanks

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Moloco Diagonal Panel Roof

Brian Everett
 

Brian,

These are a "LATE" model of the Stanray roof.
They come without roofwalk supports, but Nick is also providing a
seperate detail for the supports.

I have a coup[le of these, and they are very nice roofs.
Regards,
Brian Everett

"Brian J Carlson" <brian@b...> wrote:


Moloco has an ad for a Stanray overhanging Diagonal Roof.
Has anyone seen this part? Is it appropriate for Steam Era boxcars?
Thanks

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Red Ball "NYC 40 ft Sheathed Boxcar (X-29)"

Robert Daniels
 

Okay, just a wild guess here -- did someone mean to
say "Red Caboose" and not "Red Ball?"

Rob Daniels
New York, NY

--- Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:
Ben Hom writes-


Lou Nigro wrote:
"I was at a train meet yesterday and picked up one
Red Ball NYC 40' Sheathed
Box Car (X-29)..."

Man, that is one confusing description. AFAIK, Red
Ball never did a cast
metal X29 kit, though I wouldn't be surprised if
they did paper sides in the
early days of HO. Do you have a scan or
description of any of the castings
or the instruction sheet that you can post or
e-mail me off-line? I'm
curious (and I'll bet Doc Denny is too) to see what
this car really is.

Hm-m-mm. This is ringing no bells as yet. There is
no car remotely
of this description in my Red Ball catalogues (M.
Dale Newton 1941,
Howell Day 1958), nor in J.P. Barger's all time Red
Ball master list.
They did produce house car plated metal ends (#552),
but off hand
they do not look like X29 (I will have to compare
them today). I
found no complementary sides (which for Red Ball
would also have
been made of cast metal).

It is possible that Newton after the war did make up
X29 parts that
were never sold in a kit, and Howell Day simply did
not pick them up
or produces them for one reason or another.

Newton loved colorful reefers and semi-oddball (and
odd ball) cars
that called for fine colorful printing on one hand
(he was a printer
by trade), and detailed castings with a lot of
relief on the other
(he already had casting machines for his type). He
did very few
boxcars as a result.

John Anderson, later of Kemtron and Cal Scale fame
made Newton's
patterns, and also drew the pictures for his
catalogues (as he also
did for Kemtron, and for Cal Scale). Anderson did
extremely fine
work; and Newton's passion was printing up some
pretty wonderful,
pretty accurate and colorful reefer sides. These
attributes can make
the Red Ball cars and kits pretty satisfying. The
catalogues are
works of art by themselves.

(but, I ramble on...!)

Denny (also a sometime Vermonter...)


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, California


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


Re: Red Ball "NYC 40 ft Sheathed Boxcar (X-29)"

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Ben Hom writes-


Lou Nigro wrote:
"I was at a train meet yesterday and picked up one Red Ball NYC 40' Sheathed
Box Car (X-29)..."

Man, that is one confusing description. AFAIK, Red Ball never did a cast
metal X29 kit, though I wouldn't be surprised if they did paper sides in the
early days of HO. Do you have a scan or description of any of the castings
or the instruction sheet that you can post or e-mail me off-line? I'm
curious (and I'll bet Doc Denny is too) to see what this car really is.
Hm-m-mm. This is ringing no bells as yet. There is no car remotely of this description in my Red Ball catalogues (M. Dale Newton 1941, Howell Day 1958), nor in J.P. Barger's all time Red Ball master list. They did produce house car plated metal ends (#552), but off hand they do not look like X29 (I will have to compare them today). I found no complementary sides (which for Red Ball would also have been made of cast metal).

It is possible that Newton after the war did make up X29 parts that were never sold in a kit, and Howell Day simply did not pick them up or produces them for one reason or another.

Newton loved colorful reefers and semi-oddball (and odd ball) cars that called for fine colorful printing on one hand (he was a printer by trade), and detailed castings with a lot of relief on the other (he already had casting machines for his type). He did very few boxcars as a result.

John Anderson, later of Kemtron and Cal Scale fame made Newton's patterns, and also drew the pictures for his catalogues (as he also did for Kemtron, and for Cal Scale). Anderson did extremely fine work; and Newton's passion was printing up some pretty wonderful, pretty accurate and colorful reefer sides. These attributes can make the Red Ball cars and kits pretty satisfying. The catalogues are works of art by themselves.

(but, I ramble on...!)

Denny (also a sometime Vermonter...)


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, California

156181 - 156200 of 195620