Date   

Re: Proper Names, Paints, etc. (Champ Decals)

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

The quote should have read, " So many cars,...so little time!"

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: Proper Names, Paints, etc. (Champ Decals)

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

Charlie,

There never has been an interlocking machine manufactured that was
called an "Armstrong" machine. This is a term used by some railroaders
and rail buffs to describe a mechanical interlocking machine because it
needs strong arms and back to pull the levers to line up the switches
which are connected by pipeline to the machine. The pipeline was
connected at the base of the tower to a rocker bed which transmitted the
movement to the switches through a series of levers and cranks. The
term "mechanical" machine is what USS&S and GRS designated this type of
machine. Early mechanical machines were made by Saxby-Farmer
Corporation prior to the turn of the 20th Century.

Just because railroad employees use these terms does not override the
proper designations by the manufacturers. I worked with this type of
equipment when I first hired as a block operator on the Pennsy 40 years
ago and just retired from train dispatching last year. The term "pistol
grip" was used by many railroaders to describe the shape of a type of
lever machine that was predominately made by GRS on their
electro-mechanical interlocking machines. USS&S also had a signal lever
on certain types of their mechanical plants that were similar to those
used by GRS, but instead of pulling the "grip" lever directly towards
you, it swung in an underslung arc from the box it was connected to. I
have seen many types of interlocking machines on many railroads and all
have had combinations of the many models of the two big signal
manufacturers, right up to the various types of CTC machines made.

In later years, a number of railroads (including the Penn) converted the
interlockings to either air (pneumatic) or electric, but retained the
old mechanical machines. To do this, they disconnected the pipeline
connections and added electrical contacts to the bottom of the big
levers. The Penn had several of this type on the PT and Atlantic
Divisions in the early '60s (Brill and Cooper comes to mind)..

There is no such thing as a friction bearing. Again, these are terms
that some railroaders and most railbuffs use to describe solid bearings
on locomotives and cars. This also calls to mind the hyperbola used in
most railbuff books where the description of steam locomotives "pounding
by" is also an incorrect usage. Any locomotive that pounds has some
thing wrong with it's counterbalancing and should be removed from
service as soon as possible. Any master mechanic that lets a locomotive
out of his enginehouse in that condition would have been "fired" as
pounding damages both the equipment and the track structure.

"Dulux Gold" may show up in the vendor's invoices, but on PRR and
Pullman Lettering prints, the correct terms were "Imitation Gold
Lacquer" or "Imitation Gold Enamel." I won't say that you are
incorrect in the usage, as Dupont also called other colors "Dulux" in
their enamel paint line. On other roads, this color may have been
called "Dulux" , but on Pennsylvania and Pullman Lettering Drawings it
was "Imitation" and not "Dulux." I am sure that Art Dubin, Peter Tilp,
Chuck Blardone and the "late George Rust were not wrong! George was
employed by Dupont in their paint department and had all the color drift
cards for the paints sold to the railroads. I knew him when he worked
part-time at Mitchell's Train Shop in Wilmington and we had a large
number of discussions regarding paint used on the Penn, including the
infamous "Brunswick Green" which the the railroad called "Dark Green
Locomotive Enamel."

Either way, a lot of the usage is colloquial, but still strays from the
manufacturer designations and this from a historical viewpoint is a
problem when you are trying to properly describe something. It has
nothing to do with anyone intentionally trying to distort history, but
incorrect usage litters much of what we see in print.

In regard to the decal industry, there are a lot of people making decals
today and with the large amount of data that is currently available, the
mistakes of the past are slowly being corrected. I am sure that Rich
Meyer would have corrected a lot of the short-comings that were in his
line of decals (many of which he inherited from Max Gray) but time ran
out before he was able to do so. I guess that the problem lies with
what Al Westerfield told me not too long ago, " so may cars...too little
time!"

All we can do, Charlie, is to keep trying to make it better than before!

Getting back to freight cars, the Central of Georgia Historical Society
has run out of their new CofGa Ventilated boxcar due to heavy demand.
They are waiting for Smokey Mountain to ship the next batch so that
they can catch up their back orders. I dropped them a note suggesting
that in later runs, perhaps they could add the Hutchins roof as an
additional part since the cars were rebuilt by the end of WWII.

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479

Charlie Vlk wrote:

Tom-

In this you are not correct.

I am looking at a typical Styling and Painting drawing (for a B&O EMD E-7A)
and the color is called out as
"95-014 Dupont Imit. Dulux Gold" and this is typical official terminology
for builder and railroad lettering and painting diagrams.
Also, the correct color for PRR locomotive and passenger car lettering is
either Metallic Gold or PRR Synthetic Buff Lettering
Color Enamel Ref. No. 47-3294 depending on the era.

"Armstrong interlocking machines" is a term that was used on the
railroads..... just like "Pistol Grip interlocking machine". I know several
people that were tower operators in the Chicago area and they use those
terms. I'm not so sure about "friction bearings" and would probably lean
in the direction of their being called "plain bearings" after the widespread
use of roller bearings, but I wouldn't rule it out.....many of our magazines
and authors had strong prototype connections and they normally didn't just
make up terminology out of the thin air. And just because the term wasn't
in use in a part of one railroad doesn't mean that professional railroaders
elsewhere on the same road or others did not use it.

Addressing the general tone of this thread, I don't understand the
belligerence displayed on this list and others towards companies that make
sincere (if sometimes imperfect) efforts to get things right....MicroScale
has a long track record of doing so. Also, while we may wish that Champ
Decals and Rich Meyer had done things differently (computerizing,
updating/issuing more sets, and my favorite, doing N Scale sets....and most
of all not dying) it was his business and his decision..at least for all but
the last issue......and he did enough things right to have made a living in
the middle of North Dakota for decades and most of us are very grateful for
his contributions to the hobby.

Perhaps those that see a business opportunity will step forward and do a
service for all of us by using their talents and resources to provide more
and better products from their full-time companies.

Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources



On top of that, Micro-Scale still thinks that PRR locomotive and
passenger car lettering is "Yellow," rather than artificial gold. The
term "Dulux Gold" more of a rail buff term (sort of like "friction
bearings" and "armstrong interlocking machines") and does not show up in
lettering diagrams. They have been advised of the errors and have been
given lettering information many times over the last 20 years and they
still disregard it. Perhaps, our new PRRT&HS modeling committee will
make some progress in this area.






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Erie Covered Hopper

Eugene Deimling <gene48@...>
 

The Erie 50-ton covered hopper builders shot can be found on Fallen Flags
website

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie20000bdb.jpg

Another shot in-service is show there as well.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie20012ab.jpg

Note that there is variation in the latch mechanism. 20012 has an inboard
latch.

I built this car in 1:48 scale in the middle 1970's from scratch. There is
a shot of it on the ELHS site

http://www.erielackhs.org/Erie/Images/models/o_scale_eriehopper1.jpg





Gene Deimling


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Doug Brown <brown194@...>
 

The caption in the 1940 CBC says "for cement lading".

Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
raildata@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:39 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

I think there are two underlying fallacies in the current "hypotheses"
about
early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of Pennsylvania
near
Allentown. (There were also cement mills in central PA near Bellefonte)

Cement was widely produced all over the country. There was a mill at
Hoe's Cave on
the D&H noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet hauled
on the
Erie. There well may have been cement mills on the western part of the
Erie.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement. Another liklet commodity

would have been glass sand carried to the Corning glass works. The early
Genreal
Electirc cars were used to haul sand for glass making and Corning to
this day
gets the sand in covered hoppers.

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO









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Re: IM AT&SF stock car kits.

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

proportions of the classes Sk-Q, Sk-R, Sk-S, Sk-T, Sk-U?<
Data Richard compiled that was in an old Santa Fe Modeler.
Sk-Q--250
Sk-R--497
Sk-S--248
Sk-T & U--798

1-1-1943 and numbers are approximate.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: IM AT&SF stock car kits.

smithbf36832 <smithbf@...>
 

Since the SK series cars that IM has produced all seem to be "of an age", what were the
proportions of the classes Sk-Q, Sk-R, Sk-S, Sk-T, Sk-U? This would be a big help in
deciding how to build the kits I have received <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of raildata@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 12:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

I think there are two underlying fallacies in the current
"hypotheses" about early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of
Pennsylvania near Allentown. (There were also cement mills
in central PA near Bellefonte) Cement was widely produced all
over the country. There was a mill at Hoe's Cave on the D&H
noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet
hauled on the Erie. There well may have been cement mills on
the western part of the Erie.
Indeed, I seem to recall cement service around Buffalo, but don't have any documentation . . .yet.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement. Another
liklet commodity would have been glass sand carried to the
Corning glass works. The early Genreal Electirc cars were
used to haul sand for glass making and Corning to this day
gets the sand in covered hoppers.
I was "sure" that these came lettered "Cement" from the builder, but checking the print I have sure says that's not so. You
may be right, Chuck.

SGL

Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO







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Re: Erie Firsts, was Cement hoppers

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:14 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Erie Covered Hoppers

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
That's not quite a fair characterization of the ERIE. The ERIE was
first in many aspects of railroading.
The first all-steel passenger car
Really? I've always read it was about a tie between
PRR and SP in the summer of 1906. Or do you mean head-end?
There were steel postal cars before 1906 but they weren't
passenger cars in the normal sense of the term. And if you
ignore railroad and just say "rail," it would be the New York subway.
OK, so maybe I should have written "passenger equipment" instead of "passenger cars," but even then, only if you restrict the
discussion to the time limits of this list. If you read ALL the pages [ 8^) ] of Mr White's book, The American Railroad
Passenger Car, you find on page 120 that La Mothe's diagonally framed iron (OK, NOT steel) car ran on the ERIE for six
months, through the summer of 1859. For a purist, this car did have wooden components, but its structure was metal.

There is no such nit-picking allowed about the baggage car, all steel, built by standard Steel Car, in 1904, followed by two
more, a mail car and an express car, in 1905. Mr White deemed these significant enough to include them in his book about
passenger cars . . .

And by New York Subway, I assume you mean the Hudson & Manhattan Tubes?

SGL


Re: K vs. AB

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 5/1/05 7:23:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, duff@gmavt.net
writes:

<< Why would tank cars be exempted until a later date? I would think
that, based on the type of products carried by tank cars, they would
be the FIRST to get any upgrades. >>

Phil,

The larger percentage of tank cars were leased to far ranging companies
though the maintenance and major repairs were done by the tank car companies --
many with but one central facility. The recovery of leased cars to home shops
for conversion to "AB" brakes was the main rationale tank owners used to coax
the AAR and the ICC into the final extension. The Korean Conflict was also a
factor within the decision to grant the final extensions for all types of
freight equipment.

Tank car owners also played a large role in extending the use of arch bar
side frames nearly twenty-five years earlier citing the same reasoning though (in
both cases) they had ample time to comply with mandates.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
Earthquake Faults, Nevada


Re: Flat car decks

smithbf@...
 

OOPS! Sorry folks, that was meant to go directly to Rich.

My apologies
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

> Does anyone out there have pictures of F-22 flat car decks?
> Richard Yoder

Hi Rich,

The attached photo was posted several years ago by Bill Lane. Please do
not use it commercially without his permission. It shows a close up of
the bearing pivot, and the deck of an F22. I love the fact that the
lettering is so new that the chalk lines used to line it up are still
there .

You can also see the sedges of the deck on the photos I posted of the F22
with the gun load
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg

BTW, we will have a 1/87 16", 50 caliber Mark 7 (Iowa class
battleship)
gun in resin shortly!

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL




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Re: Flat car decks

smithbf@...
 

Does anyone out there have pictures of F-22 flat car decks?
Richard Yoder
Hi Rich,

The attached photo was posted several years ago by Bill Lane. Please do
not use it commercially without his permission. It shows a close up of
the bearing pivot, and the deck of an F22. I love the fact that the
lettering is so new that the chalk lines used to line it up are still
there <G>.

You can also see the sedges of the deck on the photos I posted of the F22
with the gun load
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun1.jpg
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/F22withGun2.jpg

BTW, we will have a 1/87 16", 50 caliber Mark 7 (Iowa class battleship)
gun in resin shortly!

Regards,
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
That's not quite a fair characterization of the ERIE. The ERIE was first in many aspects of railroading.
The first all-steel passenger car
Really? I've always read it was about a tie between PRR and SP in the summer of 1906. Or do you mean head-end? There were steel postal cars before 1906 but they weren't passenger cars in the normal sense of the term. And if you ignore railroad and just say "rail," it would be the New York subway.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jerry Dziedzic

it seems the originating
road, not Erie, would be more likely to pioneer a new car design.
Ah, not to distract from the main topic here . . .

That's not quite a fair characterization of the ERIE. The ERIE was first in many aspects of railroading.

Chas Minot for starters, with the first safe operation by telegraphic train orders.
The first all-steel passenger car
Truc-Train (PRR was a me-too on that.)

Many many others.

Hrrrumph!

SGL


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, raildata@a... wrote:
I think there are two underlying fallacies in the
current "hypotheses" about
early Erie covered hoppers:

1. That the cement hauled came from the "cement region" of
Pennsylvania near
Allentown. (There were also cement mills in central PA near
Bellefonte)
Cement was widely produced all over the country. There was a mill
at Hoe's Cave on
the D&H noth of Oneonta....a far more palusible source of cemnet
hauled on the
Erie. There well may have been cement mills on the western part of
the Erie.

You're right, Chuck. This was a question we posted: where were
cement mills located on the Erie?

D&H might have been another candidate for pool cars. However, as
for the L&NE pool we were hypothesizing, it seems the originating
road, not Erie, would be more likely to pioneer a new car design.

2. That the cars were intended to haul cement.
The 1940 Cyc describes the cars as cement cars.

I'm glad to see another person join this discussion. I was tempted
go off-line with Schuyler, because the STMFC discussion seemed to be
confined to only the two of us. I decided to try one more post to
see if we could attract others, so welcome aboard!


Flat Car Decks

Charles Etheredge
 

Thanks guys for all the info. I'm aware of the effects of Goo on
plastic unless a period of time is allowed before making the bond. I
use white glue for a lot of things but am leaning toward the slower
setting CA or epoxy for the wood to plastic.
I have already purchased both the brown and black Feibig's dye to use
with alcohol. It seems that a lot of modelers go this route to
weather wood.
Now my next project is to experiment with different things to come up
with the huge blocks of granite hauled by these flats from the
granite quarry at Marble Falls down the branch to Austin.

Charles Etheredge
Modeling the TNO in the 40's


Re: SP Rebuilt B-50-15 class

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Deimling wrote:
I am looking for information on the type of brake wheel/gear box used on the
B-50-15 that were rebuilt with steel sheathing. The pictures in my
collection don't show with any clarity the make. The SP seemed to use a
wide variety of designs on their early steel cars like Universal, Ajax and
Equipco and Ureco. I am trying to build up some kits and wanted to get the
equipment configuration correct. I am doing a rebuilt 14480 series with a
Murphy Radial roof and a 31560 series with a Murphy panel roof.
Gene, pictures right after WW II still show vertical-staff hand brakes (or, if you will, horizontal wheels). Clearly the steel sides were added without adding vertical-wheel hand brakes. Later some did get vertical wheels. I have two photos showing Ajax in the 1950s. How many, and which, others might have been used I can't say.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: F-70-7-- possible stand-in for C&EI?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I guess Red Caboose doesn't strive for Six Paint Schemes like P2K does! (C&EI would have given them #3.)
Well, there is pre- and post-1956 lettering for SP and T&NO (that's four) on Class F-70-6, and both SP and T&NO (transfers from Pacific Lines) for Class F-70-7. That's six right there.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: F-70-7-- possible stand-in for C&EI?

jerryglow2
 

Maybe they're trying to justify the relative high price of the car
because they claim it's a one road car. <g>

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Scott Pitzer <scottp459@e...> wrote:
I guess Red Caboose doesn't strive for Six Paint Schemes like P2K
does! (C&EI would have given them #3.)
Scott Pitzer


Re: Erie Covered Hoppers (was Covered Hoppers)

Jerry Dziedzic
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@v...> wrote:

SL - For the Erie to effectively participate in traffic from the
cement district it may have been useful to have Erie cars
in a pool administered by one of the origin railroads. While the
DL&W was obviously a competitor on some traffic the L&NE
clearly was not. In the age of regulation even DL&W-Erie joint
line routes existed. Today joint routes involving erstwhile
competitors are still common. Even today it is not uncommon for
railroads other than the origin railroad to supply equipment
for repetitive multi-road movements. M J Connor
You're right -- we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the cars
were ordered for a pool. If I were a cement company executive in
the early thirties, contemplating new markets or distribution
channels, I'd be thinking about bulk moves to a Great Lakes port
like Buffalo in order to reach midwest markets more economically.
Maybe it was a far-sighted Erie traffic manager. So, an L&NE-Erie
route would make sense. But I'm far from convinced.

In 1934, L&NE (and also DL&W) rostered only limited numbers of cars
of their own, and all were rebuilds of open hoppers. ACF's first
deliveries of their 1790 cu ft cars weren't made until 1937.

It seems unusual that Erie would be the pioneer for a new technology
in these circumstances. If I were a traffic manager negotiating
with a pool candidate in these circumstances, I'd say "you go
first." But that's me.

More questions. If the cars were indeed intended for cement
service, why did they bump down to ore service on a subsidiary line
(which, by the way, the Erie was draining of cash and otherwise
neglecting) within five years of delivery? I don't see anything
distinguishing the Greenville cars from competing designs. It's not
apparent that they would be unsatisfactory in cement service.

Do any listers know if Erie served a cement terminal in Buffalo in
the early thirties?


SP Rebuilt B-50-15 class

Eugene Deimling <gene48@...>
 

I am looking for information on the type of brake wheel/gear box used on the
B-50-15 that were rebuilt with steel sheathing. The pictures in my
collection don't show with any clarity the make. The SP seemed to use a
wide variety of designs on their early steel cars like Universal, Ajax and
Equipco and Ureco. I am trying to build up some kits and wanted to get the
equipment configuration correct. I am doing a rebuilt 14480 series with a
Murphy Radial roof and a 31560 series with a Murphy panel roof.



Thanks,

Gene Deimling

146121 - 146140 of 187213