Date   

Re: interchanged head end cars

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
. . . Sometimes there were Southern or L&N or Seaboard
cars, presumably via New Orleans, and sometimes eastern cars like B&O
or NYC.
Tony, other than converted troop sleepers, NYC had very few express box
cars. I've got to assume that any NYC cars you saw were ex-troop
sleepers or regular baggage/baggage-express cars.

There were ten NYC express box cars done up in about 1940, and I've
only seen the ready-to-be-placed-in-service photo, no in-service
photos. I don't think they stayed in express service very long, and in
the post-war era they got the ex-troop sleepers.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


Large Dots on Tank Car Domes

gary laakso
 

The Spring 2005 Locomotive Quarterly that I received today has a picture of
a M&NE 2-6-0 pulling 3 tank cars in 1939 at Rennies, Mich and the tow black
Sinclar tank cars each have 2 large white dots on the domes facing the end
(I assume 2 more dots facing the other end). What do the dots represent?


Re: interchanged head end cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

The best answer to Ed Mines' question that I could give is to report the head-end cars I used to enjoy seeing at the Postal Annex and express building at LAUPT when I was a teenager in the 1950s and rode down there on my bicycle. There were always Mopac or T&P cars, from the El Paso gateway, and of course lines like the Rock Island. I especially liked the bright colors of Milwaukee and GN head-end cars when they were there, and was always baffled at the astoundingly dirty X29 express box cars. No other railroad had anything like that, so they stuck in my mind. Sometimes there were Southern or L&N or Seaboard cars, presumably via New Orleans, and sometimes eastern cars like B&O or NYC. Wish I would have had my box camera with me more often.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Inside Straight Gondola

Justin Kahn
 

I am re-doing an old International O scale brass gondola (Japanese import from early 1950's) and I have no idea of the prototype. The early brass freight cars made for export generally DID have prototypes, usually from MRR and RMC drawings (I once heard that at least one of the manufacturers kept a copy of the older MRR Cyclopedia on the shelf for GI's to order from), although the fidelity was not so high as it was to become later. I've gone through all of my obvious references and the only thing at all close is the Erie high-side drop-bottom gondola (for which RailCraft had been making a better-proprotioned model since just before WWII, although neither--assuming this IS supposed to derive from drawings for the Erie--tried to indicate the drop-doors).
I figured I would consult the experts on the list to see if there is a better candidate (after all, I DO have a RailCraft Erie to fill that need). It is 44' long, 7' high sides, ten panels with nine equal ribs, but the two end panels are slightly narrower than the rest, there are pronounced end-sills, and the ends have two horizontal ribs. What I hope for is a reasonable approximation, as I am improving the car; if I wanted more labor, I'd scratch-build another.
All responses considered thoughtfully. Unfortunately, no prize for the best answer except public praise and thanks.
Jace Kahn

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


Re: Red Caboose late Run Decorated kits

Paul Lyons
 

Sorry Guys, Meant to send response direct to Andy.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Red Caboose late Run Decorated kits

Paul Lyons
 

Andy, I will take the P&LE Car along with one of the IT cars. Paul Lyons


Re: interchanged head end cars

kuban <kuban@...>
 

B&O's Washingtonian regularly carried a Reading baggage car originating at the Curtiss Publishing plant in Philadelphia. It appears in several scenes on videos of Bill Price films. I also have a video showing a B&O baggage car on the rear of a UP mail train pulled by an FEF-4 going over Sherman. I recall seeing many western baggage cars passing through Pittsburgh on the PRR during the '50s.

Jim Kubanick,
Morgantown WV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] interchanged head end cars


In addition to the mail and express business mentioned by several other
posters, one other common cargo caused baggage cars to roam nation-wide.
That was magazines. The printing plants for such steam era favorites as
Life, Look, Colliers, and the Saturday Evening Post were heavily
concentrated in Ohio and mostly serviced by the PRR. They were invariably
handled in passenger train as they were time-sensitive cargo. There would be
weekly loads of magazines for all parts of the country and they would be
loaded into B60b baggage cars (soon to be available from Walthers) and/or
X29 box cars in express service (necessary freight car content). Red
Caboose has had an excellent kit for this car for some time. Foreign (to
the PRR) baggage cars might also be used if they were available, to get them
off the line and headed home.

Does anyone know if this business was handled by the REA or did the
publishers have such a large volume of regular traffic that they could ship
the magazines themselves to their own distributors across the country?

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ed_mines
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:42 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] interchanged head end cars

How common were foreign road head end cars? In the last year or 2 RMC had an
article on a train in eastern PA which had mail and express cars from
several different railroads. I would have thought that this was uncommon.

A few days ago Mike Brock said that UP baggage cars (or mail cars?) were
seen in NYC. Was this routine or once in a while, like for Christmas?

Is anyone familiar with similar cars?

Except for east coast/west coast trade (LA/NYC, SF/NYC etc.), traffic
between most pairs of large cities could be serviced by one railroad
(Chicago-NYC - Erie, Chicago-Boston - NYC, St. Louis-NYC - PRR, etc.)

Ed






Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: interchanged head end cars

armprem
 

CN head end cars brought frozen fish for the Boston and New York
markets.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "ed_mines" <ed_mines@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 4:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: interchanged head end cars


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:
Well...think about it. Consider mail from, say, Bawston to Miami or
New Orleans or Dallas or Kansas City. How's it gonna get there?
I understand what you're getting at Mike, but how much mail or
express is there between Boston and Dallas? Enough to fill a car?
1000 letters 3 times a week?
A few weeks ago someone linked a book of Erie express connections
and the combinations seemed endless. I can't imagine sending one
package from A to B in a separate car. I imagine that the express
(or mail) is carried by one railroad to a hub with another railroad.
For example Boston to NYC - NH, NYC to Washington - PRR, Washington
to Miami - ACL (?)......
The more frequent the trains, the less goods for each destination.
Unloading parcels and reloading them to an adjacent car may be less
expensive than sending a partially full car off road and loosing
it's services for a few days. Boston to Miami is a special route,
just like NYC to LA or SF.
Anyway, I's like to know what the operations really were. Too much
fiction has worked it's way into "prototype" modeling.

Ed







Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: AC&F Welded-Steel Express Reefer Article in RMJ

George A. Walls
 

Mike,
I don't think these cars were in use much before about 1948. "Our era"
for me is early 1930's. A little early for these reefers.

Sure could use a picture of a 4000 series ATSF express reefer. Anyone
have one they could sent me a copy of?

Thanks,
George A. Walls

These cars will be very useful for our era.


Mike Brock


Re: F-70-7-- possible stand-in for C&EI?

CASO <caso@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Pitzer" <scottp459@earthlink.net>
I guess Red Caboose doesn't strive for Six Paint Schemes like P2K does! (C&EI would have given them #3.)
Scott Pitzer


I received the dealer newsletter today from Red Caboose and they will be offering the flat car in C&EI in RTR form only.
RR-32140 for the plastic deck. RR-32141 for the wood deck. 12 car numbers.

Terry Link
Bramalea, Ontario, Canada
trlink@canadasouthern.com
www.canadasouthern.com


interchanged head end cars

Bob Webber <no17@...>
 

As has been noted, a lot of foreign road traffic on a lot of roads. However, it should not be assumed that all railroads were alike in how this traffic was handled - or if this traffic was handled.

An example might be the D&RGW. The mail to/from Denver/Salt Lake City was handled by UP. Traffic south by ATSF & C&S. Which means that there are few photos and consist information with foreign head end equipment on the D&RGW.

As Charlie mentioned, the CB&Q moved magazines, but there were several plants on the Q that moved magazines, and it was an extremely heavy business for them. On a weekly basis, 1-3 extra cars might be added to the DZ or CZ (depending on any number of situations) at Cicero, Omaha and "Lincoln". This was aside from the normal mail and other traffic.

In 1953, PRR train 11 E of Pitt had the following:
(Aside from PRR traffic)
1 MS60(X) Phil-St. Paul
1 MS60 Phil-KC
1 MS60(X) Phil-KC
1 MS60(X) Phil-Texarkana
1 MS60(X) Pil-LA
1 MS60 NY-KC
1 MS60 NY-Texarkana
1 MS60 NY-StL (Mex)
and W of Pitt
1 B60 NY-NO (IC)
1 MS60 Phil-KC (MP)
1 MS60(X) Phil-KC (MP)
1 MS60 (X) Phil-Texarkana (MP)
1 MS60 (X) Phil-LA (MP)
1 MS60 NY-KC (MP)
1 MS60 NY-Texarkana (MP)
1 MS60 NY-LA (MP)
1 R50 Exp NY-OK C (MP)
1 R50 Exp NY-Dal (MP)
1 B60 NY-Hou (MP)
1 B60 NY-San Antonio (MP)

Obviously, any MP modeler had better be a PRR modeler as well!

This is one example, but it serves top remind us of what the transportation network was pre 1970. Long haul trucking had not siphoned off all of the traffic you see now, magazines, newspapers and such were sent by train - and arrived 2-3 days later in some cases (you wouldn't get a NY Times in KC the same day, but two days later); parcels over a few ounces were going to go rail, and so did most people. Large tour groups hit the rails, and so did all the baggage.

Take a good look at this one example of where the mail and express is going - and this is but one partner of the Pennsy. It doesn't count the NYC partners, the due west (from Chicago or most of the NW routes. This was a daily (for the most part train. Course, it depends on when "you" are running.

The MP Eagle had a nice article in it some time back about all the foreign headend cars that passed between KC & St Louis. Worth getting to remind yourself of the roll played if nothing else.

And remember, stuff went the other way too - in other words, the SP & ATSF met the MP in KC and the MP moved ATSF & SP cars between those two cities.


Re: Champ decals

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Shawn Beckert asked:
"You say Champ's Circle Keystone decal set is correct. Is this set
usable for Pennsylvania cars in service during the late 1950's or
early 1960's? Might have to get me a few..."

The following PRR decal sets were revised in the late 1980s and early
1990s with the assistance of Bob Johnson, PRRT&HS Archives Chairman
(revision date in parentheses):

PRR Freight Car Sets
HB-30N - Box car, 50 ft, circle keystone (4-21-92)
HB-40 - Box car, 40 ft, outside braced, circle keystone (7-28-92)
HB-155A - X29 Box Car, Merchandise Service (2-19-97) (Upgraded set
may not have been printed)
HB-303N - Box car, 40 ft, circle keystone (4-21-92)
HB-307N - Box car, 40 ft, shadow keystone (10-23-95)
HC-47N - Twin hopper, 7-rib, circle keystone (11-11-89)
HC-70N - Covered hopper, circle keystone (9-7-93)
HC-79 - Quad hopper, shadow keystone (2-2-84)
HC-97 - Flat car, 40 ft or 50 ft, old style (4-23-90)
HC-115 - Stock car, circle keystone (7-28-92)
HC-120N - M of W, circle keystone, black (9-7-93)
HC-121N - Cabin car, shadow keystone (9-19-90)
HC-128 - M of W, circle keystone, white (9-7-93)
HC-179N - Quad hopper, circle keystone (3-9-92)
HC-180N - Quad or triple hopper, 7" PRR and number, 1957-1962 (4-1-96)
HC-210 - N8 cabin car, circle keystone (3-8-90)
HC-221N - Cabin car, circle keystone (3-8-90)
HC-280 - Wrecking Cranes (12-21-93)
HC-321 - Cabin car, plain keystone (9-19-90)
HC-444 - Twin hopper, 9-rib, circle keystone (11-11-89)
HG-108 - Gondola, long, shadow keystone (9-8-98) (Upgraded set may
not have been printed)
HG-148 - Gondola, long, circle keystone (4-19-93)
HG-150 - Gondola, short, circle keystone (4-19-93)
HN-80N - Road name, circle keystone, white (12-2-93)
HN-90N - Road name, circle keystone, black (12-2-93)
HT-58N - Tank car (12-21-93)

In Bob's words, "are the above sets perfect? No, a few glitches
snuck in here and there, but the sets are (or at least were) equal to
or better than anything else I saw on the market, including sets
included in expensive kits - no names here. The graphics produced by
Champ were as perfect as I was able to measure in 1/2" scale under
strong magnification. However, the printing process introduced a
small amount of error due to surface tension and viscosity of the
ink. Still, letter size and line weight were far superior to most
other forms of lettering, be it other decals, dry transfers or pad
printing on kits."

All of the above sets are still available from Champ.

To answer Shawn's question about longevity of the CK scheme, the
changeover to Shadow Keystone occurred in February 1954 with the
delivery of the 20 Class X48 PS-1s. However, many cars survived in
increasingly ratty CK schemes into the 1960s. The three Morning Sun
PRR Color Guides have many 1960s photos of cars in CK showing some
very interesting weathering patterns.


Ben Hom


Re: Car Cement

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On May 2, 2005, at 1:30 PM, railsnw1 wrote:

OK I have been working with Rick Leach in trying to determine the use
of car cement on Northern Pacific boxcars. Currently I'm working on the
restoration of two NP cars, War Emergency NP 28129 and 1932 built
single sheathed NP 14794. On the 28129 their is car cement on the ends,
roof, and trucks under at least one coat of boxcar red. The 14794 only
shows red except for the trucks which are not original as they have
cast dates of 1937. A builders photo from a car cyclopedia shows the
war emergency series as originally all red and memos exist giving the
dates of car cement as 1945 to 1955. Thoughts are the 28129 was
repainted but it would have to be before 1957 as it has the "NORTHERN
PACIFIC" monad, not the later version with "RAILWAY".

Does anyone have any photos showing NP cars with the black roofs and
ends?
Richard:

The War Emergency box cars,from Pressed Steel (28750-28999) were all red while those versions from Pullman-Standard (28000-28749) had black ends, roof and underframe. So, if your version of 28129 is to be an "as built" version, you will need to do black ends, roof and underframe, plus trucks.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
100 14th Avenue, San Mateo, CA 94402
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


AC&F Welded-Steel Express Reefer Article in RMJ

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I think I'll mention that Ed Hawkins has a superb article in the April RMJ on the AC&F welded-Steel 50 ft reefers that Branchline has been working on and Sunshine already has out. These cars will be very useful for our era.

Mike Brock


Re: interchanged head end cars

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ed Mines says:

I understand what you're getting at Mike, but how much mail or
express is there between Boston and Dallas? Enough to fill a car?
Well...as I noted, Pennsy had a dedicated car from NYC to Kansas City. Having been in Dallas in '62, I can say that the Dallas/Ft. Worth complex probably generated as much mail traffic as the KC area.


Anyway, I's like to know what the operations really were. Too much
fiction has worked it's way into "prototype" modeling.
Absolutely. In the meantime, we have to take "what we got"...photos, some information in bits and pieces and make assumptions. Until we actually find out.

Mike Brock


Car Cement

railsnw1 <railsnw@...>
 

OK I have been working with Rick Leach in trying to determine the use
of car cement on Northern Pacific boxcars. Currently I'm working on the
restoration of two NP cars, War Emergency NP 28129 and 1932 built
single sheathed NP 14794. On the 28129 their is car cement on the ends,
roof, and trucks under at least one coat of boxcar red. The 14794 only
shows red except for the trucks which are not original as they have
cast dates of 1937. A builders photo from a car cyclopedia shows the
war emergency series as originally all red and memos exist giving the
dates of car cement as 1945 to 1955. Thoughts are the 28129 was
repainted but it would have to be before 1957 as it has the "NORTHERN
PACIFIC" monad, not the later version with "RAILWAY".

Does anyone have any photos showing NP cars with the black roofs and
ends?

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens


Re: interchanged head end cars

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:
Well...think about it. Consider mail from, say, Bawston to Miami or
New Orleans or Dallas or Kansas City. How's it gonna get there?
I understand what you're getting at Mike, but how much mail or
express is there between Boston and Dallas? Enough to fill a car?
1000 letters 3 times a week?
A few weeks ago someone linked a book of Erie express connections
and the combinations seemed endless. I can't imagine sending one
package from A to B in a separate car. I imagine that the express
(or mail) is carried by one railroad to a hub with another railroad.
For example Boston to NYC - NH, NYC to Washington - PRR, Washington
to Miami - ACL (?)......
The more frequent the trains, the less goods for each destination.
Unloading parcels and reloading them to an adjacent car may be less
expensive than sending a partially full car off road and loosing
it's services for a few days. Boston to Miami is a special route,
just like NYC to LA or SF.
Anyway, I's like to know what the operations really were. Too much
fiction has worked it's way into "prototype" modeling.

Ed


Re: Proper Names, Paints, etc. (Champ Decals)

Greg Martin
 

In Part Charlie VLK sez...


"Tom-
Colloquial usage is just as important as correct technical manufacturer
designations from a historical viewpoint..." (SNIP)

"As far as the issue of Dulux (Imit.) Gold.... Dulux and Duco were different
lines of paint marketed by Dupont and use of those terms with a particular
color is proper.... even if the so-called Standard Railroad of the World did
not use it on their documents.... many other organizations- including the
Electro Motive Corporation.....did. Dulux Imit. Gold or Dulux Imitation
Gold is a correct term....and since this is not one of the many PRR lists
its use is proper in most contexts. The experts are correct in stating that
"Dulux Gold" is not a color name in the same context as "Metalic Gold" or
"Chinese Red" or "Indian Red", but that is not what I was claiming.
Perhaps the lesson for the STMFC List is that kernals of truth sometimes do
not establish universal law.....practices of one railroad, or one division
of one railroad, or even most railroads at a point in time, does not rule
out legitimate contrary practices elsewhere or at other times.
Research isn't always tidy. Maybe the way to avoid such discussions is to
present our own findings and supporting evidence as such instead of
extrapolating them into rules or gospel truths.
But, as you said, All we can do, is to keep trying to make it better than
before.....
regards,Best
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources"
ALL,
Trying to get the terminology correct for the useage of PRR Standard colors is of course important to some but not to all regardles of what those outside the PRR used.
Personally, I don't care what the color on the can (or in our scale the bottle)indicates as long as it matches what we as modelers preceive as correct. This for some manufacturers seems to be diffecult or trying.
The PRRT&HS is striving to collect data that best represents these colors for future reference to all modelers and historians alike. What we will endeavor to produce is a correct color rendition to which we will provide a PRR Shade name to match... At that point you can call it what you like but we will hopefully establish the correct PRR terminology to it.

Perhaps once this is done we can assist many manufacturers so that they will not continue to make mistakes such as those that have tripped up many manufacturers in the past and give them guidelines for the future. Finding a common strand for the producers is as benificial to them as it is to the PRR Modeler for colors like those used on "FOM"/Streamlined passenger car colors as it is for the freight car modeler wishing ot decorate his own freight equipment with "era matching" PRR FCC (PRR Freight Car Color) and make those color matches available to help level the playing field.
No More YELLOW Stripes for PRR Freight units or passenger units, or boxcar brown for freight cars...
Greg Martin


Re: K vs. AB

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:
Why would tank cars be exempted until a later date? I would
think
that, based on the type of products carried by tank cars, they would
be the FIRST to get any upgrades.

Phil - I think that tank cars in the 1950 - 1970 time period were
somewhat older, as a group, than other freight cars. This may be
because they were mostly privately owned and money was tight! It may
be because of the wartime shortage which prolonged the life of many
that would otherwise have been scrapped.

Whatever the reason, in the 1970's, the ICC put out for comment a
proposed rule limiting the life of underframes in interchange service
to, at first 50 years, then later to 40 years. The proposal was
circulated among railroads and received little opposition. However,
it was not given to the tank car leasing companies and owners until
after it was promulgated. Guy Wilbur can probably be more specific
on what actually happened.

Well, the tank car companies were caught unawares - it seems the
AVERAGE age of a tank car underframe in the late 1970's was an
astounding 70 years or so! That is hard for me to believe, but it
was published somewhere. There was a mad scramble to build new tank
cars in the late 1970's because of this. Approximately 75% of the
fleet did not meet the 50 year requirement.

In going through my copy negatives from ACF, I copied more than 400
different pictures of tank cars built between 1901 and 1916, albeit
in relatively small quantities. Tank cars were constructed in
relatively large numbers in the mid-twenties also. From the thirties
onward, relatively few were built.

Just my two bits! A.T. Kott


Re: Proper Names, Paints, etc. (Champ Decals)

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

Mike,

Most of us working stiffs out in the field did not use engineers
language while going about our daily chores. After 42 years on the
railroad, I still look around at the crowd I'm in, before
uttering "friction bearings". Thats all I ever heard them called.

Chet French
Dixon,IL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:
Charlie Vlk says:


Colloquial usage is just as important as correct technical
manufacturer
designations from a historical viewpoint.
Perhaps. IOW, from a historical viewpoint, mistakes, erroneous
conclusions
and misuse of terms is as historical as correct conclusions and
proper use
of terms. OTOH, when one is standing out in -10° weather in
Chicago...as
shown in Ball's Decade of the Trains 1940s...checking wheels, wind
blowing
at 25, one might not worry about using the correct engineering
terminology
but use, instead, terms that he knew his fellow workers understood.
One
MIGHT even use non RR terms or words not found in most dictionaries
but
those which his fellow workers were well acquainted with as well.
Possibly
as it got colder, more of these words were used. There is no doubt
that
engineering and operational environments use, in many fields,
different
terms to describe the same thing. The STMFC is probably more in
tune with
the engineering side, being more driven by design and development
than
use...although both apply. Happily, it's not -10° here so I'm
inclined to
use engineering terms. However, during an op session...now that's a
different story.

I have to chuckle about this at times, however. No less than Ralph
Johnson,
Chief Engineer for Baldwin Locomotive Works, refers to non roller
bearings
as "solid bearings" and "friction bearings" on the same page [
185 ] in his
book The Steam Locomotive. Maybe he was assuming that both
engineering staff
AND operations personnel might read his book <g>.

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