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Re: War Emergency Hoppers

thompson@...
 

That coal hoppers went off line is not in dispute. That they did so "in
large numbers" is relative. The fact remains that most photos of coal
trains in coal country show very high percentages of home road cars. OTOH,
research has demonstrated that coal moved via certain routes off-line, e.g.
to the Great Lakes for export. But please note that such is NOT the same as
"going everywere off line," as we might expect with XM, FM, etc. cars.
I think if you want to model off-line coal hoppers, you need
documentation of what you choose to model. As someone else has said, the
favorite modeler's coal train in which every hopper is a different road is
plain silly. The farther we get from that, the better.
(All spoken, of course, by someone who has close to zero need to model
ANY coal cars of any description.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: The West

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Richard and friends,

If the Burlington wasn't a western railroad (with which I agree), then
why was its slogan "Everywhere West"?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Richard Hendrickson and others wrote:

the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west).
I don't know anybody named "Hedrickson," much less a noted geographer. But
having grown up on the west coast and spent most of my life here, I can
tell you that, for us far westerners, the west begins at the Front Range.


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Beckert, Shawn [mailto:shawn.beckert@disney.com]
(Sigh). I'll have to get painfully specific here, which
I probably should have done in the first place. I model,
or am attempting to model, the St. Louis Southwestern as
it would have looked from roughly World War Two up until
the mid 1960's.
My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years.
You want the ICC Commodity Classification reports. I placed a spreadsheet
copy of the Rutland report (from 1948) in the shared files area here on
egroups.com. In addition to the raw data, I converted the tons to carloads
etc. etc. Take a look and judge whether such info could be of use to you.
My source is Stanford Library -- their government document repository.
There are a few other major universities that have the same reports.

Dave Nelson


Re: The West

Jack Priller <Gndlfstram@...>
 

--- In STMFC@egroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
Westerners have ranches, not farms (as in
Nebraska and the Dakotas), so those who live in west Texas and
eastern New
Mexico sort of qualify - but
they're still flatlanders, so they don't really know from western.
The
west is all about mountains. Even in the middle of the Mojave
Desert or
the Great Basin, there are likely to be substantial mountains on the
horizon everywhere you look. From a private pilot's perspective,
the west
is where you worry about terrain clearance. East of the rockies,
you can
fly at 500 ft. AGL all day and never worry about running into
anything
except the occasional microwave tower - at least, until you get to
the
Appalachians, which are way eastern.
Not all of the western portion of Texas qualifies as 'flatland': fly
out of the El Paso airport and maintain 500' AGL going west [your
normal takeoff direction] When I go up on the roof of my house, so I
can see over other houses, there are some real big rocks sticking up
just a tad above the local desert in several directions. Having
driven west out of Pueblo CO, I won't call them mountains, even if
the cartographers do.

Jack "The trolley nut" Priller
Honorable Association of Good Guys and Irreverent Souls
"To comfort the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable."


(No subject)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Anybody know (offhand) the story of this car?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/grr/ga2614as.jpg
Rebuilt from a 19300-19449 series single sheathed box car originally built
in the mid-1920s. They were similar to the Howe truss cars AC&F built as
alternatives to the ARA single sheathed design for the MoPac and
subsidiaries and other southern and southeastern RRs (e.g. Ga. & Fla.,
C&G.).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

Mike,

It appears to be established fact [*] that eastern road hoppers
went off-line. Question: when they went off line, did they do so as
[essentially] unit trains (i.e. all N&W hoppers together in a giant block)
or were they evenly distributed like box cars (an N&W car, then a C&O,
then a VGN, then a couple more N&W...).

Regards,

-Jeff

[*] If you state anything long and loud enough, people will believe you
:-)

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: The West

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard Hedrickson...noted geographer...writes:

the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west).
I always suspected that that guy who once said, "The west starts at Fort
Worth" didn't know what he was talking about.

Mike Brock...now where'd I leave the key to the bunker?
I don't know anybody named "Hedrickson," much less a noted geographer. But
having grown up on the west coast and spent most of my life here, I can
tell you that, for us far westerners, the west begins at the Front Range.
Denver is western, Cheyenne is Western. Fort Worth isn't western, it's
southwestern, with an emphasis on "south"; all y'gotta do is listen to all
the southernisms in the dialect. Westerners have ranches, not farms (as in
Nebraska and the Dakotas), so those who live in west Texas and eastern New
Mexico sort of qualify - but
they're still flatlanders, so they don't really know from western. The
west is all about mountains. Even in the middle of the Mojave Desert or
the Great Basin, there are likely to be substantial mountains on the
horizon everywhere you look. From a private pilot's perspective, the west
is where you worry about terrain clearance. East of the rockies, you can
fly at 500 ft. AGL all day and never worry about running into anything
except the occasional microwave tower - at least, until you get to the
Appalachians, which are way eastern.

All a matter of perspective, of course. I've heard New Yorkers talk about
"out west in Ohio"; apparently they think Pittsburgh (or maybe
Philadelphia) is the gateway to the west. But then, they call the
Adirondack and Berkshire hills "mountains," so what do they know?



Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Bill Schneider <branch@...>
 

I agree. I got one the other day marked "Branchline Trains-you guys
really should put your address in your ads-East Hartford, CT (no zip)"
Got here fine.

The SAME DAY a correctly addressed envelope was delivered to the
trucking company two doors down....

Oh, the first guy was looking for boxcar parts (freight car content!)

Bill

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

It's a crap shoot;
USPS service ranges from excellent to abysmal.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Shawn Beckert
 

Mike Brock, in the midst of an informative post, wrote:

Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing
hopper cars not only went off home rails, but did so
frequently.
(Sigh). I'll have to get painfully specific here, which
I probably should have done in the first place. I model,
or am attempting to model, the St. Louis Southwestern as
it would have looked from roughly World War Two up until
the mid 1960's. From what I can tell from my sources of
information, the fixed plant of the railroad changed very
little in this period. Means I get to run 2-8-0's, FT's,
and if I feel frisky, GP-20's, all on the same layout. Not
all at the same time ,of course ;-)

My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years. Since this was a
"bridge line" moving freight through the St. Louis gateway
to points West, I can get away with running all types of
cars, up to a point. What's hard is trying to pin down what
percentage of what kind of freight moved on the SSW. And one
of my problems is knowing how much coal - if any - they were
moving in my era of interest. I asked about the P2K hoppers
because I don't want to spend money on them if they wouldn't
normally be seen in Cotton Belt territory. Thus my question
to the List. Can anyone tell me with confidence that these
cars should not be represented on my railroad?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard - That's the exact address I have. - Al
Westerfield
I recently wrote to Allen Stanley, the guy in South Carolina who has the
extensive collection of diagram books and similar material, and my letter
was returned stamped "insufficient address>
Guy Wilber advised that Allen also has an apartment number at that address
- apt. 239 - and apparently some USPS nitwit couldn't or wouldn't deliver
it without the apartment number. In contrast, the Ashland post office
phoned us the other day about a hopelessly mis-addressed letter after they
went to the trouble to look us up in the phone book. It's a crap shoot;
USPS service ranges from excellent to abysmal.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


(No subject)

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Anybody know (offhand) the story of this car?

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/grr/ga2614as.jpg

-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson


Re: Allen Stanley's Address

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Richard - That's the exact address I have. - Al
Westerfield

I recently wrote to Allen Stanley, the guy in South Carolina who has the
extensive collection of diagram books and similar material, and my letter
was returned stamped "insufficient address>


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the
NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal
service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies
in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).
Good stuff, Dave. I recall you mentioning the cars out of Asheville.

Mike


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.
Yes doubt. The ICC would occasionally have to issue service orders
requiring all roads in possession of hoppers from the VGN, N&W, and INT to
return them on release from the consignee -- no other loading allowed.
Happened to D&RGW cars once too.

Dave Nelson


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service.
Ted's is the safe answer. There were exceptions: I have a number of
Southern Rwy conductors books from the 40's & early 50's for the main east
out of Asheville, NC -- I've got a count of 191 SOU hoppers listed (mostly
in company service), but well more than 200 hoppers from 26 other roads
(including the NYC, MILW, B&M, Alton, C&NW, and MSL to cite the most
unexpected).

Toledo Ohio -- Lots of N&W cars, no N&W rails. Brewster, Ohio on the NKP --
plenty of N&W hoppers. Some evidence they got to the steel industry near
Chicago.

Soldier Summit in Utah: plenty of D&RGW coal gons, but cars in coal service
from the MP, UP, WP, CBC, and B&LE appear in photos and much of the Utah
coal went to the pacific coast. On occasion there were DMIR ore jennies in
Utah on the LA&SL (U.S. Steel moved their cars around).

Dave Nelson


The West

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hedrickson...noted geographer...writes:

the Burlington hardly qualifies as western, from the
perspective of a native westerner, as Denver and Cody, WY are only on the
extreme eastern edge of the true west).
I always suspected that that guy who once said, "The west starts at Fort
Worth" didn't know what he was talking about.

Mike Brock...now where'd I leave the key to the bunker?


Re: [PM-list] WofA PS-1 Model

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard,
This is really great info, would you mind if I forwarded your
post to the L&N RR list? there are some guys on there who I am sure would
find it interesting.
No problem, Warren. You're free to share anything I post. (If I'm making
it up out of whole cloth, I'll warn you in advance).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Ted Culotta writes:

I can only comment on the Eastern cars (L&N, B&O, C&O, etc.), but, in
general, the large bituminous coal carrying roads of the Eastern US used
their cars in basically captive service. If you look at any photos of
coal
drags from the B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, VGN, they are long strings of cars only
from those roads with a VERY rare off-road hopper in the mix (for example
an
N&W hopper drag contains only N&W cars, with maybe one VGN or C&O car
mixed
in - modelers who put an N&W loco followed by hoppers from a number of
different roads are usually modeling a fictitious scene).
...Ooooh no, here we go again...Thompson and Hendrickson will be reaching
for more wine wondering if the TV might provide relief....Yes, trains would
contain mostly N&W cars, although I have noticed quite a few Clinchfield
cars coming out of Roanoke eastbound on video tapes. roads.

These cars were
either to serve on line customers or to move coal to bulk shipment points
(the N&W loaded coal onto ocean freighters at Norfolk, VA and points on
the
Great Lakes via other roads' rails -
Yes, but the largest...at least according to the Prince book...amount of
coal from the N&W went into the midwest...and, not on N&W tracks. Of 52
million tons of coal moved in '48, 22 million tons went west, 10 million
went to the Great Lakes, 10 million went through Lambert Point, and the rest
went into the South, VA, and DC areas. Of the 52 million, at least 30
million went off N&W rails.

these cars would then almost always be
promptly returned to the N&W to go back to the mines).
No doubt.

Some of these cars
would make it off line to other roads' rails, such as in the Northeast,
but
the Anthracite roads' (CNJ, RDG, Erie, D&H, LV, LNE) cars were more
commonly
seen offline in the Eastern US than their bituminous carrying cousins.
Yes, but those 32 million tons of coal traveling west and to the Great Lakes
did it on foreign tracks. The N&W might have been something of a "captive"
RR in that its coal trains consisted of...as you say...mostly N&W cars. But,
while few foreign coal carrying cars may have ventured onto N&W tracks, the
inverse is not true. N&W coal carrying cars requented foreign tracks often.

Anonymous


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Say it isn't so, Joe...er, Shawn,

You write:

I've just
assumed, judging by who owned these cars, that they
were in coal service, and therefore captive on home
rails.
Oooooh no. I spent a month proving that coal bearing hopper cars not only
went off home rails, but did so frequently. I have then paid for this
eloquent enlightenment by finding N&W hopper cars showing up unexpectedly in
strange places on my Sherman Hill layout. Even in broad daylight. Here I go
again.

But I don't really know for sure, therefore the
question. Would these cars have traveled far from home?
Stepping boldly into the abyss....I'd say it depends largely on the RR. This
is much too complex to be properly covered right now, but let me address
only one example. No, not the N&W but, rather the coal fields of Southern
Illinois. A couple of quotes from a great book, Burlington Bulletin, #35,
The Q in the Coal Fields:

Pg 104
"Under the first...interchange...the Q received loaded coal cars from
another RR, and both..."
"The Q received considerable interchange coal tonnage at certain points
along the Beardstown Div. At Forman, deep in Southern Illinois, the Q
interchanged with the NYC..."Further north, at Goreville, was the
interchange with the CE&I. Back to the north at Waltonville, the Q
interchanged with the Missouri Pacific and received coal from..."

Other major interchange occurred with the IC. Photos show both B&O and
Pennsy hoppers at the mines along with Q cars and those of IC & C&EI. Q
trains include Mopac, C&EI, IC hoppers.

Mike Brock


Re: [PM-list] WofA PS-1 Model

ibs4421@...
 

Richard,
This is really great info, would you mind if I forwarded your
post to the L&N RR list? there are some guys on there who I am sure would
find it interesting.

Warren "Whatshizname" Dickinson
At the end of the E&G Branch, L&N

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