Date   

Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER

armprem
 

For what it is worth,M.Dale Newton AKA Red Ball.had several flats in his
line including a well-hole flat ,a Pennsy-depressed center flat and a
shorter version flat.F&C has several flats in their line including a odd B&M

flat.Armand Premo--- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER


Mike Brock wrote

Shawn, I agree with you that Depressed Center Flats were much ado about
virtually nothing. Only 14 roads owned the 139 cars.
OTOH, if a product requiring an FD needed to be shipped, such a car would
have to be acquired from some place. So...given that many such products
were
produced in the more industrial northeast or midwest [ Illinois, Ohio,
Michigan in this case ], such products moving to the west coast might be
found on any major RR between the originating plant and the destination.
Hence, FD's would certainly qualify for long distance off line travels.
True, one of these things wouldn't be seen often...but they would be
seen.


Not only seen, but when loaded they are often spectacular, which explains
why railfans were fond of taking pictures of them. I have a beautiful shot
of PRR F29 #70008 on the SP in Los Angeles in 1957 and see no reason why
modeling such a load shouldn't be pursued just because it was uncommon.


Tim O.





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Depressed flats

Rupert and Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Whilst on the subject of "depressed flats", would anyone know who built CB&Q's sole example #91875 in 1958 (72' 3" IL, 10' wide, 300000 lb max, with 4 four-wheel trucks)

Thanks

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ


Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
. . . I have a beautiful shot
of PRR F29 #70008 on the SP in Los Angeles in 1957 and see no reason why
modeling such a load shouldn't be pursued just because it was uncommon.
Indeed, there's no reason not to model ANYTHING just because it was uncommon. But if one chooses to model very many uncommon things, the combination is a deadly foe to realistic modeling. After all, even in modeling, "uncommon" had better mean exactly that.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike Brock wrote

Shawn, I agree with you that Depressed Center Flats were much ado about
virtually nothing. Only 14 roads owned the 139 cars.
OTOH, if a product requiring an FD needed to be shipped, such a car would
have to be acquired from some place. So...given that many such products were
produced in the more industrial northeast or midwest [ Illinois, Ohio,
Michigan in this case ], such products moving to the west coast might be
found on any major RR between the originating plant and the destination.
Hence, FD's would certainly qualify for long distance off line travels.
True, one of these things wouldn't be seen often...but they would be seen.

Not only seen, but when loaded they are often spectacular, which explains
why railfans were fond of taking pictures of them. I have a beautiful shot
of PRR F29 #70008 on the SP in Los Angeles in 1957 and see no reason why
modeling such a load shouldn't be pursued just because it was uncommon.


Tim O.


abarsive blasters

Mike Barone <mike_barone@...>
 

I've had considerable experience with these in recent years. Even though I use a Badger unit, the air supply from an ordinary hobby size compressor is insufficient. It is necessary to obtain a unit capable of about 4 cfm at 40 psi. (Most hobby compressors are about 1/2 cfm at 25 psi.) A decent compressor can be bought at most hardware or tool supply store. Get one with a pressure regulator and at least a 2 gal. tank. You may wish to add to it a about 10' to 15' of copper piping, coiled, to form a cooler and a moisture trap such as those that can be found in the Walthers catalogue. This last is essential since any moisture will cause clogging.
Also get a shop vac to evacuate the air and keep the booth under negative pressure. A cheap Sear one will do. If your booth doesn't have a connection for this, you can make one and bolt it over an existing vent on the booth. Note that this vent must also have a filter to prevent all the grit from being sucked out into the shop vac. And for further protection, use one of those dust filters available at hardware stores.
Hope this helps.
Mike Barone


Flat car models

Richard Townsend
 

There also is a long flat produced by Frateschi of Brazil. It has a deck that measures 61 feet, and fishbelly sides with 17 stake pockets. I picked one up at Timonium recently to see what could be done with it. Someone once told me it could be a stand-in for some unspecified series of NYC flats, but I have not been able to determine which it might be. No matter what, the deck would have to be replaced as it seems to represent an all-metal welded deck or some such thing. Also, no rivets on the sides. It comes with interesting roller bearing trucks that seem to follow a 70-ton prototype.

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


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Re: walking on top of a train

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: walking on top of a train

Fred Freitas wrote:
was it possible to bleed off air by means of a control
valve on the caboose, which in turn would sound an alarm,
or warning
device in the cab? I'm thinking of the emergency chord
found in early
Pullmans, only different application.
Would that be a major or minor chord?

Tony Thompson
Depends on the seriousness of the situation . . .

SGL


depressed centre flats

Mike Barone <mike_barone@...>
 

Regarding the CP flats, of the 2 groups of cars of which I know, neither had Buckeye trucks, 1 had 2 - 2 axel AAR trucks while the other had 4 trucks.
Mike Barone


Flat Car models in general (long)

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

For the record, there are a couple of other resin flat car models to consider:

the Norwest kit of the C.P. 336260 Series Flat Car http://www.promodelbuilders.com/norwest/nw-105.htm which is a nicely detailed kit (with superb decals available from BlackCat). These have straight side sills.

and

the (former Point One now) Kaslo Shops CNR B-1 and B-2 cars (which are lovely). These have the fish belly side sills http://www.kasloshops.com/point1models.htm

Any place on the continent that had a need for Canadian lumber can justify Canadian flat cars - a surprising number of the photos I've seen are taken in USA locations!

In fact, I'm looking for more photos of Canadian flat cars. On the CPR side we have a fairly extensive collection of drawings at the CP SIG web library http://www.cpsig.ca/, but it is taking me quite a while to sort out what drawings match which cars, and then to find good photos in each class - surprisingly hard for some car classes.

On another note, I am surprised there is not more talk about scratch building flat cars. I have started a couple of CPR flats following some of the drawings and they are a relatively simple car to model. On one I borrowed some Accurail fishbelly centre sills and some Tichy bolsters, stake pockets and K brake gear. Not perfect, but with some modifications, its coming along OK. The big step remaining is shaving off Athearn rivets and gluing them on. Is anyone else going this route?

Rob Kirkham


Re: Flat Car models in general (long)

Eric
 

Scott wrote:

"I was just looking at the B&O Color Guide which "shows" a depressed center flat-- well, I can't SEE
anything in the shadows but SOMETHING must be holding up the load! I guess no decals would be
needed on that one..."

Have you tried using a photo editing program on it? I'm always surprised at the level of detail that
pops out just from fiddling with the brightness/contrast function of the cheap no name bundled PE
programs that came with my computer.

Eric Petersson


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Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim Gilbert writes:

Shawn, I agree with you that Depressed Center Flats were much ado about
virtually nothing. Only 14 roads owned the 139 cars.
OTOH, if a product requiring an FD needed to be shipped, such a car would have to be acquired from some place. So...given that many such products were produced in the more industrial northeast or midwest [ Illinois, Ohio, Michigan in this case ], such products moving to the west coast might be found on any major RR between the originating plant and the destination. Hence, FD's would certainly qualify for long distance off line travels. True, one of these things wouldn't be seen often...but they would be seen.

Mike Brock


Re: depressed flats

Eric
 

What about the Model power 40' depressed center flats? Any prototype? Or shouldn't I even ask?

http://www.modelpower.com/site/519087/product/8660
http://www.modelpower.com/site/519087/product/8659


On the topic of DCFCs and their prototypes, does anyone remember the Steinberg article in MR in the
late 1970s which was basically the Athearn HD flat with a section of one of their 50' flats slipped
into the middle, complete with rivets and stake pockets. The author swore up and down there was a
prototype to which it was similar but neglected to provide a picture. I've been waiting decades to
find out just what it was. Any ideas?


Eric Petersson


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Re: air tests was walking on top of a train

ljack70117@...
 

On Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 10:27 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
Not if you BLED them, which is typically what happens when cars are
switched. This is a COMMON cause of runaway cars!
Good point, Bruce, and one I was slowly warming up to
making--but you made it very well.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
BUT a local freight does not bleed the train off except the cars that are going to be switched at the station they are at. As a switchman I have made up may locals freights and they are in order of stations. When they come to station A they only bleed off the cars for A, After they have switched and have added any pick ups they connect all air hoses, make an air test and leave town, At station B they arrive with the pick ups from A ahead of the cars for B. They Bleed off the cars for B and leave the air in the picked up cars. As they go down the line if the picked up cars get to be a big bunch they will cut them in behind the working train just a head of the caboose. These stories about forgetting to hook up air hoses or not opening an angle cock borders on urban legends.
Air tests are in the rule book and if you like your job you MAKE the test. If you don't and some thing happens you will be out of a job. Also You never know when a Trainmaster is watching you and he will be sometime and somewhere.
One more thing, when the train comes to town the engineer sets the brakes on the entire train to stop it. He does not pump it off. He leaves them set. The train crew turns the angle cock on the car they are leaving and on the engine. Then they bleed off the cars they are going to switch. When the train is ready to leave town, if they do not connect the air and open the angle cocks YOU are no going to move the rear of the train because the brakes are still SET.
I have worked for two RRs, road the rails and set and watched the crews work. You do not see the crews cut those kind of corners. You do not have run a way cars if you follow the rules. If you are working in an area where one could run a way you have a hand brake that you tie down.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
The 50-50-90 Rule: Anytime you have 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is 90% probability you'll get it wrong.


Re: Molco roofs and roof parts

Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Walthers carries them. Enter 'Moloco' in the search field and you'll see all
his products. I just did.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


Re: Digest Number 2547

Frank Greene <fgreen01@...>
 

I guess the lesson learned here is that the RRs sized their fleets (whether flats, gons, whatever) according to their traffic. There are probably countless "anomalies" in most roads fleets for that reason. In this instance, I suspect the connecting RRs (e.g., L&N, SAL, etc.) were perfectly happy to let CG tie up its capital in the depressed center flats.

Frank Greene
fgreen01@...



Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:53:10 -0400
From: centga@...
Subject: Re: Re: Flat Car models in general (long)

Shawn, the cars were purchased for the General Electric transformer plant at Rome Ga in 1953. The Southern also bought a sizable number of these cars to serve the same industry. I did some research on these cars and this customer a few years ago. The cars were all assembled in the C of G Savannah shops from basically kits. The Central and the Southern negotiated with GSC for the first purchase of the 58' depressed center car bodies. They received a quantity discount for a total of 19 cars IIRC. I assume the Southern shops assembled their cars as well. I was surprised to at the number of cars as well. The Central even tried to persuade other connecting lines to purchase cars to add to the pool. Todd Horton


Re: walking on top of a train

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Not if you BLED them, which is typically what happens when cars are
switched. This is a COMMON cause of runaway cars!
Good point, Bruce, and one I was slowly warming up to making--but you made it very well.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Flat Car models in general (long)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

For those interested in using foreign general service flat cars on a layout, please consider the implications of the transcription below of a January 8th, 1952 RAILWAY AGE article.

"WHY FEWER FLAT CARS WHEN DEMAND IS CONSTANTLY RISING?", HARVESTER PRESIDENT ASKS

"I do not wish to join the ranks of critics, but one thing about the railroad industry puzzles me. The basic demand for cars has been on a constant increase - not as a temporary thing, but probably as a permanent fact of life in the transportation business. But during the last ten years, what has the railroad industry done about meeting the demand of its customers? It has gone backward. On December 1, 1942, there were 58,957 flat cars owned by Class I Railroads. On December 1, 1952, ten years later, the number of flat cars has gone down to 47,024, a decrease of approximately 20%."

So said John L. McCafferty, president of the International Harvester Company before the Midwest Shippers Advisory Board in Chicago on January 8. He had prefaced his remarks by stating that Harvester historically has shipped many of its products by flat car - "that is the way we prefer to ship them." He also said that his company had greatly expanded production of such products in the past decade; that many competitors had similarly expanded; and that many new competitors had entered the business - all of them need flat cars.

"What has happened as a result? My company - and I am sure others have done the same - being unable to get flat cars in the number that we needed them, has shipped by truck. We have shipped by barge where it has been feasible. We have even, on occasion, called up our dealers in areas not too far from our manufacturing plants and tell them to send their own trucks to pick up their goods."

"This was tonnage which railroads could have had. You didn't lose it because some competing transportation was preferred. You lost it because you were not equipped to handle it. You are still using it for that same reason."

(End of Article)

McCafferty was referring to a general service flat car shortage somewhat similar to the shortage of boxcars. While the variety of commodities suitable for flat cars may have been less than boxcars, there was still some flexibility in the choice of loads geographically which allowed B&M 42' Flat #33509 to stay away from home rails for two and a half years despite the B&M trying to get it home in order to retrofit the car with AB Brakes.

While I am not prepared to defend statistically the notion that foreign general service flat cars would appear in the proportion of what the foreign road owned of the national total as I can for boxcars, the elements which were present for boxcars are quite similar to the ones for general service flats.

Tim Gilbert


Molco roofs and roof parts

Bill McCoy <bugsy451@...>
 

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to find these roofs and roof
parts? In addition to roof walk supports, I believe they offer a
diagonal panel overhanging 50' and maybe a 40'roof. I can't find a web
address or a big dealer (Caboose and Walthers) who carries their
parts. Caboose had a Nick Moloco listed but no roof parts.

Any help will be appreciated.

Bill McCoy
Jax


Re: Flat Car models in general (long)

bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Wow! Still more good flat car modeling info. My copy of Eldon's
message has been appended to include your data, too. Thank you, Pieter.
Gene Green


Re: Flat Car models in general (long)

bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

Eldon,
Thank you for a very useful synopsis of flat car models. Saved your
message to a separate file in case STMFC ever disappears for some
reason. Good material!
Gene Green

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