Date   

Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 19, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Richard Dermody wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote;

"And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the throttle of a
Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe, was more steam loco
than anything the Rutland ever owned."

Sorry, Richard, but the Rutland also owned the last 4-8-2's ever produced in
the United States. Admittedly, not the Western behemoths you cite, but more
than a trifle better than a Mikado.
Dick, I'll keep this short, as this isn't the steam loco list. I had, indeed, forgotten about the Rutland's 4-8-2s, which were handsome and capable locos for their size (though there were only four of them and they didn't last long). With 73" drivers they were doubtless faster than a typical western Mike but weighed little more and developed considerably less tractive effort. A Santa Fe 2-8-2 built in the mid-1920s would start more train, keep it moving better on grades, run much farther between water stops with its 15K gal. tender, and after modernization with disc main drivers was capable of sustained speeds in the 60s, probably as fast or faster than freight trains ever ran on the Rutland. "More than a trifle better?" I don't think so.


Re: Obscure Northeastern Short Lines

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 19, 2005, at 7:54 PM, Marty McGuirk wrote:

Ah, but I seem to recall -- way down deep in the memory banks --
seeing a Rutland flatcar with a marble load built by none other
than Richard himself.

Does that mean the good doctor is, of all things, a "Rutland"
modeler????
Sure. When it comes to freight cars, I model anything that might have turned up in Southern Calif. in the late '40s, which includes the Rutland flat car in question. I even have a couple of models of Central of Vermont freight cars, speaking of obscure northeastern short lines. I do draw the line at the NYO&W, however (with apologies to Bill Schneider), since most of its freight cars were too decrepit to make it very far off line. And Montour coal hoppers? Puhleeze.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 19, 2005, at 6:46 PM, armand wrote:

Richard, I'll bet you don't even like the Pennsy or the NYC.
Armand, let's just say that I think both RRs are over-rated by their admirers. The Pennsy, in particular, peaked early and went steadily downhill after it squandered its capital on electrification, and its much-vaunted mechanical department turned into a painfully bad joke in the later years of the steam era. What can you say in favor of an engineering staff whose only successful steam loco after the M1 was a design they borrowed from the C&O? As for freight cars, the Pennsy's answer to the AAR box car design was the X37? Give me, as we say, a break. NYC did better, staying relatively current in freight car design (though saddled with a vast amount of obsolete rolling stock). But though the last generation of NYC steam locos were well designed, line clearance limitations prevented them from achieving either the performance or the endurance of the larger western locos. Both NYC and PRR were major RRs in terms of traffic volume, but neither were even close to the cutting edge of RR technology and, with few exceptions, their operational practices were still stuck in the 19th century. The Pennsy, in particular, never did understand fast freight or perishable traffic; they tended to treat every shipment as though it were a load of coal. In truth, there aren't many eastern RRs I admire; maybe the Erie and the NKP, which at least understood how to expedite freight traffic because they had to in order to survive.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote;

"And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the throttle of a
Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe, was more steam loco
than anything the Rutland ever owned."

Sorry, Richard, but the Rutland also owned the last 4-8-2's ever produced in
the United States. Admittedly, not the Western behemoths you cite, but more
than a trifle better than a Mikado.

Dick


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

--How
could
any right-thinking model railroader NOT be fascinated by
the Rutland?

Ah, but I seem to recall -- way down deep in the memory banks --
seeing a Rutland flatcar with a marble load built by none other
than Richard himself.

Does that mean the good doctor is, of all things, a "Rutland"
modeler????

Marty


Re: Merger mania

Greg Martin
 

Chuck,

Your post makes more sense than speculating on what now...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: raildata@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:45:45 EDT
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Merger mania


While we may not be happy with everything Walthers produces and how they run
their business, I think we owe them a vote of confidence that they feel there
is enough of a future in the model railroad scale hobby to invest capital in
it...a rare phenomena these days!

Chuck Y
Boulder CO








Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Class II and III vs. Class I RR's (Was RE: Hoppers to & From Canada)

Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 7/19/2005 7:41:18 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
armprem@surfglobal.net writes:

Richard, I'll bet you don't even like the Pennsy or the NYC.<g>Armand Premo


---> What's there to like about two eastern has beens? <VBG - said entirely
as a joke!>

---> Seriously, I once was interested in only the majors, mostly in the
West. I wouldn't take a look at a shortline as they were boring! What a mistake.
Shortlines are great! They are easy to get a grip on. You can model one in a
reasonable space and in many cases, model their complete roster too! Try that
with Espee, Santa Fe or the Central or the Non-Standard RR of Pennsylvania!

--> Clearly each has their appeal, and I think that I have the best of both
worlds with my Grand Canyon District of the Santa Fe. It's a shortline
railway, as well as being the stepchild of a Class I railway. The other ironic
thing about my choice of prototypes; I was always more interested in the Rio
Grande, Union Pacific and even that Standard RR of California then I was Uncle
John! Now here I am, surrounded by UP, modeling the Santa Fe! In steam of
course, hauling steam era freight cars (added to ensure that I am at least
somewhat on topic! <G>)


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
I'll admit the Rutland
was...well, quaint. But for those of us who grew up with mainline
steam in the west, "quaint" palls quickly. I was raised on a steady
diet of Santa Fe 2900s and 2-10-2s, SP GS-4s and cab-forwards, and UP
FEFs and Challengers. I was fortunate to witness both Cajon and
Tehachapi when the motive power was almost all steam. I once rode the
cab of a 2900 4-8-4 from Barstow to Needles, almost 500 tons of
locomotive pulling a thirteen car mostly-heavyweight train at 80-100
mph. And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the
throttle of a Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe,
was more steam loco than anything the Rutland ever owned.
The size issue is one aspect; another is "lovable loser" railroads, which seem to appeal disproportionately to modelers. One could name the O&W in this category; other struggling roads which finally sank beneath the waves despite distinctive style included the WP and the WM. Now I could see attractive reasons to model either of the latter, but not because they were big-time railroads.
And let's not even get started on "stuff" like the RGS, which lost its reason for being in the 1893 Sherman Act, before the road was even completed. That has to be an ultimate railroad loser in the business sense--despite its all-world scenery.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

armprem
 

Richard, I'll bet you don't even like the Pennsy or the NYC.<g>Armand
Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Hoppers to and From Canada


On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Justin Kahn wrote:

First, to Richard: I am amazed, sir, amazed at such parochialism! How
could
any right-thinking model railroader NOT be fascinated by the Rutland?
Jace, I do understand that the Rutland has its die-hard fans, one of
them being my good friend Jeff Enlish. And I'll admit the Rutland
was...well, quaint. But for those of us who grew up with mainline
steam in the west, "quaint" palls quickly. I was raised on a steady
diet of Santa Fe 2900s and 2-10-2s, SP GS-4s and cab-forwards, and UP
FEFs and Challengers. I was fortunate to witness both Cajon and
Tehachapi when the motive power was almost all steam. I once rode the
cab of a 2900 4-8-4 from Barstow to Needles, almost 500 tons of
locomotive pulling a thirteen car mostly-heavyweight train at 80-100
mph. And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the
throttle of a Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe,
was more steam loco than anything the Rutland ever owned.

I remember years ago writing in a magazine article that the Rutland was
"an obscure northeastern short line," a remark that was mainly intended
to tweak Jeff E., and got a vitriolic letter from a Rutland devotee
questioning my intelligence, parentage, etc. in language I'm sure Mike
Brock wouldn't sanction if I repeated it here. Among other things, he
claimed that the Rutland was a "serious mountain railroad," which by
western standards verges on the comical. The fact is that the Rutland
WAS "an obscure northeastern short line." That it had character I'd be
the first to admit. That it may have been lovable I will not deny,
since beauty is notoriously in the eye of the beholder. And I can
certainly understand why modelers for whom coal traffic is a big deal
might be interested in coal movements at the Alburgh trestle. But do I
find the Rutland fascinating? Uh, sorry, not even close.

Richard Hendrickson




Yahoo! Groups Links









--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.1/51 - Release Date: 7/18/05


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Rich,

Don't despair, I live in Bennington, Vt. and model the PRR. Even the NYC fans razz me at the LHS. Even in a "quaint New England Village" railfans have their loyalties, and Rutland seems to be the universal common standard. Who knew?

Fred Freitas / Pres
New England Chapter / PRRT&HS

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Hoppers to and From Canada


On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Justin Kahn wrote:

> First, to Richard: I am amazed, sir, amazed at such parochialism! How
> could
> any right-thinking model railroader NOT be fascinated by the Rutland?
Jace, I do understand that the Rutland has its die-hard fans, one of
them being my good friend Jeff Enlish. And I'll admit the Rutland
was...well, quaint. But for those of us who grew up with mainline
steam in the west, "quaint" palls quickly. I was raised on a steady
diet of Santa Fe 2900s and 2-10-2s, SP GS-4s and cab-forwards, and UP
FEFs and Challengers. I was fortunate to witness both Cajon and
Tehachapi when the motive power was almost all steam. I once rode the
cab of a 2900 4-8-4 from Barstow to Needles, almost 500 tons of
locomotive pulling a thirteen car mostly-heavyweight train at 80-100
mph. And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the
throttle of a Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe,
was more steam loco than anything the Rutland ever owned.

I remember years ago writing in a magazine article that the Rutland was
"an obscure northeastern short line," a remark that was mainly intended
to tweak Jeff E., and got a vitriolic letter from a Rutland devotee
questioning my intelligence, parentage, etc. in language I'm sure Mike
Brock wouldn't sanction if I repeated it here. Among other things, he
claimed that the Rutland was a "serious mountain railroad," which by
western standards verges on the comical. The fact is that the Rutland
WAS "an obscure northeastern short line." That it had character I'd be
the first to admit. That it may have been lovable I will not deny,
since beauty is notoriously in the eye of the beholder. And I can
certainly understand why modelers for whom coal traffic is a big deal
might be interested in coal movements at the Alburgh trestle. But do I
find the Rutland fascinating? Uh, sorry, not even close.

Richard Hendrickson



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pennsy S Models Website update

Bill Lane <billlane@...>
 

HI All,

Dan has been quietly working at getting the website updated.
http://www.pennsysmodels.com Please give it a look. He may be able to get a
few more new photos added before we leave for the NASG convention in Altoona
http://www.amtma.org on Monday.

A limited number of you will be able to take advantage of our convention
special, which is a Cash N Carry on a completely new car! We will have a
limited number of new cars for you to take with you. No, we are not a one
and done company. We are already looking at project number three!

We are looking forward to seeing many of you at the convention. Please stop
by and see what we have accomplished in this past year.


Thank You,
Bill Lane

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy in S Scale in 1957

See my finished models at:
http://www.lanestrains.com

Importing a Brass S Scale PRR X29
http://www.pennsysmodels.com
ALL of the production cars have arrived as of 6-30-05

***Join the PRR T&HS***
The other members are not ALL like me!
http://www.prrths.com


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Justin Kahn wrote:

First, to Richard: I am amazed, sir, amazed at such parochialism! How could
any right-thinking model railroader NOT be fascinated by the Rutland?
Jace, I do understand that the Rutland has its die-hard fans, one of them being my good friend Jeff Enlish. And I'll admit the Rutland was...well, quaint. But for those of us who grew up with mainline steam in the west, "quaint" palls quickly. I was raised on a steady diet of Santa Fe 2900s and 2-10-2s, SP GS-4s and cab-forwards, and UP FEFs and Challengers. I was fortunate to witness both Cajon and Tehachapi when the motive power was almost all steam. I once rode the cab of a 2900 4-8-4 from Barstow to Needles, almost 500 tons of locomotive pulling a thirteen car mostly-heavyweight train at 80-100 mph. And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the throttle of a Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe, was more steam loco than anything the Rutland ever owned.

I remember years ago writing in a magazine article that the Rutland was "an obscure northeastern short line," a remark that was mainly intended to tweak Jeff E., and got a vitriolic letter from a Rutland devotee questioning my intelligence, parentage, etc. in language I'm sure Mike Brock wouldn't sanction if I repeated it here. Among other things, he claimed that the Rutland was a "serious mountain railroad," which by western standards verges on the comical. The fact is that the Rutland WAS "an obscure northeastern short line." That it had character I'd be the first to admit. That it may have been lovable I will not deny, since beauty is notoriously in the eye of the beholder. And I can certainly understand why modelers for whom coal traffic is a big deal might be interested in coal movements at the Alburgh trestle. But do I find the Rutland fascinating? Uh, sorry, not even close.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Dates for meets

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

To Jeff English,

Please contact me off list about Bennington, thank you.

Fred Freitas
Bennington, Vt

----- Original Message -----
From: englishintroy
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Dates for meets


Ted,

Does your scope include prototype RR historical society conventions?
If so, you can add the Rutland Railroad Historical Society's 20th
annual convention, set for May 6 & 7 in delightful Bennington, Vermont.

Jeff English
Troy, New York




SPONSORED LINKS Train travel Freight car Canada train travel
Train travel in italy North american


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "STMFC" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Converting Red Caboose PFE Bettendorf underframes to built-ups

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Carlson wrote:
Terry has informed me that
the difference between 30 ton and 40 ton underframes
are not noticable in HO scale. You might have
differing thoughts on this topic.
A lot of the structural members are identical (at 1:1 scale). Probably the most visible difference is that the bolster cover plates are a different shape. I would agree with Terry that the increased plate thicknesses of the 40-ton version in a few places would be awfully hard to see--even if scale thicknesses were used in models.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Dates for meets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff English said:
Does your scope include prototype RR historical society conventions?
If so, you can add the Rutland Railroad Historical Society's 20th
annual convention, set for May 6 & 7 in delightful Bennington, Vermont.
I can add the SP H&TS annual meeting (their 25th) in Oakland, California, on July 12-16, and with a gentle breeze off the Bay, it won't even be hot. Perhaps it will even be "delightful." The venue is the Oakland Airport Hilton.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Retail coal dealers, brand names and railroads

Ian Wilson
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@h...> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I've been doing some research on retail coal dealers that were
located on the Unadilla Valley Railway in south central New York.,
In the process I have come up with a number of general questions
concerning coal dealers, brand names and what railroad's hoppers
would serve those dealers. Ian Wilson's articles on retail
dealers
provided some answers, but also generated question. These articles
can be found at:

http://www.canadianbranchline.com/retailcoal.htm
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/twocoal.htm

So, my questions are:

1. Did dealers tend to carry a single brand, or was it common to
carry more than one?
Mark, I'm going to use Barrie, Ontario circa 1947 as a case study
for your questions. There were six coal dealers at the time. These
are only the brands listed in the yellow pages; there may have been
more:

Allandale Lumber & Fuel Co.--"Old Company's Lehigh" and "Olga
Pocahontas"
Barrie Fuel & Supply--local supplier of "Blue Coal" (DL&W
Anthracite), also Cavalier stoker coal
Cameron & Ellis--local distributor for "Lehigh Valley Anthracite"
Lewis & Robertson--Cavalier stoker coal
Sarjeant Co.--"Famous Reading Anthracite" and Cavalier stoker coal
J. G. Scott--"Famous Reading Anthracite"



2. Were there independent coal dealers, who would simply carry
whatever brand gave them the best deal at the time?
The coal dealers cited above were all independent local businessmen
(as the majority of the yards were). However, they could act as a
local agent (some exclusively, it would appear) for one or more
brands.



3. What railroads were connected, through ownership, mines located
on-line, etc, with the following brands:

Blue Coal (Glen Alden Coal Company)
DL&W


Cavalier Stoker Coal
Consol Cavalier
Red Jacket Lump
Famous Harlan Seam Stoker Coal
unknown, off the top of my head


Famous Reading Anthracite
RDG

Sterling Coal
D&H


Lackawanna Coal
Jeddo-Highland Coal
unknown


Lehigh Valley Anthracite
LV


Morgan Anthracite
unknown


Old Company's Lehigh
L&NE


Olga Pocahontas
Patsy Home Stoker Coal
Susquehanna Anthracite
(some of these may be Canadian brands)
unknown



4. Did railroads offer incentives to dealers to buy coal from on-
line sources?
Don't know; likely a "non-applicable" here in Southern Ontario



5. Was there any appreciable brand loyalty amongst consumers or
dealers?
The coal companies did their best to foster this with gimmickry
(e.g. dyed coal and disc-like tags inserted into the coal).



6. Were there any spatial patterns evident in specific brand
dealer
distribution (eg - eastern Pennsylvania was mostly Brand A, while
southern New York was Brand B)?
Not evident here in Southern Ontario. Keep in mind that virtually
all our anthracite came from the same small geographical area--
Eastern Pennsylvania.



Whew! That's a lot to ask in one go, but any insights would be
appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


A couple more nuggets for you and anyone interested in anthracite
coal traffic. A case study of the local coal dealers in Hespeler,
Ontario shows that 77 carloads of anthracite were received among
them over the year from July 1949 to June 1950. Of these, 41 loads,
or more than half, were received in the warm weather months from May
to September. While hard coal was still a primary residential
heating fuel, the railroads, coal companies and coal dealers did
their best to move the coal year round, as it would be impossible to
move the anthracite during the heating season alone (there simply
were not enough cars).

Want a good origin for CNJ and/or CNP (Central Railroad of
Pennsylvania--same company) hopper car loads of anthracite?
Enter "Huber Colliery, Ashley, PA" on your waybills.

Cheers,

Ian Wilson
______________
Canadian Branchline Miniatures
Box 2565, Orillia, ON L3V 7B1
http://www.canadianbranchline.com
mailto:ian@canadianbranchline.com
Publishers of books on CNR steam operations in Ontario during the
1950s


Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA

ehansmann@...
 

In the Monongahela Railroad book by Gratz and Arbogast, there are several images of Canadian Pacific gondolas at coal mines along the MRY. I believe these all date from before WWII. I can check the book once the fresh epoxy paint dries on the basement floor and I can retreat to my hobby sanctum.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Dates for meets

Jeff English
 

Ted,

Does your scope include prototype RR historical society conventions?
If so, you can add the Rutland Railroad Historical Society's 20th
annual convention, set for May 6 & 7 in delightful Bennington, Vermont.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


Re: RPM Forum?

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

On a less flippant note, I noticed that your email was sent not
only STMFC and FCL, but also to "RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com".

Can you enlighten us on what this list is, and if it is worthwhile
for the steam-era modeler?
Most of the modeling is post steam era. I stayed on for a long time because there are some very good modelers on that list and they did talk about modeling techniques from time to time. I finally signed off because the more modern bent of the group just didn't interest me.

Ned Carey


Re: Merger mania

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
<snip>
I don't claim to know their business, but last time I checked, HSD did
not survive on trains alone, but rather distributed other types of
hobby kits and associated paraphernalia. I don't know if the military
plastic market has gone the same route of manufacturers cum
distributors or vice versa, but if not, they are not in as weak a
position as one might surmise.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@s...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912
One of my other interests is current military activities (21+ years in
the U. S. Army Reserves, almost all in Civil Affairs, a previously
almost totally ignored corner of the Special Operations Command, where
the Green Berets, Rangers and other related "snake eaters" hang out,
that is now in high demand in Afghanistan and Iraq), and on the
Strategy Page (www.strategypage.com) there has been an occasional item
regarding the various companies that make weapons, vehicles, ships,
airplanes, etc., doing exactly what Union Pacific is doing in wanting
large licensing fees for allowing production and sale of military
models, some asking as much as $40 per kit(!). It's not just
railroads, folks.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

146561 - 146580 of 189853