Date   

Re: Flat Cars as per the 4/1949 ORER

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Charlie Tapper on July 15th wrote:

As for 65' gondolas, in the steel mill modeling I am hoping to get back
to after the latest move, 65' gondolas are more common than house cars.
All Gons greater than House Cars at a steel mill - OK; 65" gons highly doubtful. In the April 1949 ORER, there were 209,704 Solid Bottom Gons listed as owned by US Class I RR's. Of that 209,704,

A) 23,692 or 11.2% had inside lengths of less than 40 feet;
B) 84,394 or 40.2% were between 40 and 45 feet long;
C) 55,043 or 26.2% were between 45 and 50 feet long;
D) 39,562 or 18.9% were between 50 and 55 feet long;
E) 350 or 0.2% were between 55 and 65 feet long;
F) 6,632 or 3.2% of all solid bottom gons were 65 or more feet long.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Wood Swift Reefers

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Paul,

I can't say about the wood reefers... but the steel (50ft or so) swift
mechanical reefers of 1954-56-built date were painted in Aluminum or a
silver gray with red trademark. At least the one that I washed and
cleaned in the late 70s was painted that way.

-- Bill Keene


On Jul 20, 2005, at 5:07 PM, behillman wrote:

I finally got around to getting more of my RR things out of storage. I
found that I still have 2 plastic, HO, Life Like, Swift wood reefers
that must be about 20+ years old. They are marked on the underbody
floor, "Life Like - Hong Kong". I didn't know that we were doing
plastic "China" things back that far, except for Oriental brass
engines & cars??

The cars are about 38 ft, marked "SRLX", #1020, and car-type "RP104".
CU FT 1750. They are white with red lettering. No build date.

What is a good book on wood Swift reefers? Maybe I can kit-bash these
cars into an accurate Swift reefer?? -or another prototype??

I only remember seeing red Swift reefers. Did they do white on certain
years/classes?

Paul Hillman




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Re: Wood Swift Reefers

Doug Brown <brown194@...>
 

This is the old Varney car. These cars go back to the mid-50s. The
earliest Life-Like Varney cars had body-mounted couplers like the Varney
ones. Later they changed to Talgo truck-mounted couplers.

Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
behillman
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 7:07 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Wood Swift Reefers

I finally got around to getting more of my RR things out of storage. I
found that I still have 2 plastic, HO, Life Like, Swift wood reefers
that must be about 20+ years old. They are marked on the underbody
floor, "Life Like - Hong Kong". I didn't know that we were doing
plastic "China" things back that far, except for Oriental brass
engines & cars??

The cars are about 38 ft, marked "SRLX", #1020, and car-type "RP104".
CU FT 1750. They are white with red lettering. No build date.


Wood Swift Reefers

Paul Hillman
 

I finally got around to getting more of my RR things out of storage. I
found that I still have 2 plastic, HO, Life Like, Swift wood reefers
that must be about 20+ years old. They are marked on the underbody
floor, "Life Like - Hong Kong". I didn't know that we were doing
plastic "China" things back that far, except for Oriental brass
engines & cars??

The cars are about 38 ft, marked "SRLX", #1020, and car-type "RP104".
CU FT 1750. They are white with red lettering. No build date.

What is a good book on wood Swift reefers? Maybe I can kit-bash these
cars into an accurate Swift reefer?? -or another prototype??

I only remember seeing red Swift reefers. Did they do white on certain
years/classes?

Paul Hillman


Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA - Originated or Received? - Cape Breton Coal

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:

In the U.S., originating means mine to rail. Further, water to rail
shipments were classified as rail to rail, meaning whomever received it and
moving it once again classified it as received and not as originating. I
don't know if the Canadian Bureau used the same thinking but taking a guess
I'd say it probably did.

At any rate the key point is not much coal (or anything else for that
matter) moved south.
Page 11.11 of the Railway Statistical Manual defined the following terms in its "Freight Commodity Statistics" section:

A CARLOAD shall consist of one shipment of not less than 10,000 pounds of ONE commodity. A mixed carload shall be treated as a carload of that commodity which forms the major portion of the shipment in weight. If the single shipment is loaded into more than one car, each car shall be reported as a carload. If mote than one "carload" is loaded into one car, each shipment shall be reported separately as a carload. All shipments weighing less than 10,000 pounds shall be considered as LCL freight.

ORIGINATED ON RESPONDENT'S ROAD means:
A) Shipments originated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments received from water lines and motor highway lines, except when identified as having had previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments which received first line-haul on respondent's road, but originated on switching lines connected directly or indirectly with respondent's road;
D) Import traffic received from water carriers, and from outlying possessions of the US;
E) Outbound freight which has been accorded transit privileges.

RECEIVED FROM CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments received directly from rail carriers;
B) Shipments received from water lines and highway motor truck lines, when identified from information on waybills or abstracts as having previous rail transportation;
C) Shipments received from connecting rail carriers operating in Canada or Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal received at Upper Lake ports;
E) Iron ore received at Lower Lake and St. Lawrence ports;
F) Tidewater coal from Atlantic ports.

TERMINATED ON LINE means:
A) Shipments terminated directly on respondent's road;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and motor truck highway except when identified as to receive further rail transportation;
C) Shipments which receive last line-haul on respondent's road, but are delivered to switching roads connecting directly or indirectly with respondent's road;
D) Export traffic delivered to water carriers and shipments to outlying possessions of the US.

DELIVERED TO CONNECTING RAIL CARRIERS means:
A) All shipments delivered directly to connecting rail carriers;
B) Shipments delivered to water lines and highway motor truck lines when identified from information on waybills or abstracts as to receive further rail transportation;
C) Shipments delivered to connecting rail carriers operating in Canada and Mexico;
D) Lake cargo coal delivered to Lower Lake and St. Lawrence River ports for transhipment by vessel;
E) Iron ore delivered to Upper Lake ports for transshipment by vessel;
F) Tidewater coal to Atlantic ports.

The terms "Tidewater coal to (or from) Atlantic Ports" was interpreted by the AAR's Freight Traffic Statistics on 9/24/1956 as follows:

A) The terms "tidewater coal" ... should be interpreted as meaning coal dumped at North American ports for trans-shipment by water in coastwise movements to another port for: 1) consumption at such other port, or 2) furtherance by rail in line-haul movement to interior points.
B) Coal dumped at North American ports consigned for export should be reported as terminated at the port;
C) Coal dumped at North American ports intended for use as bunker or for trans-shipment by water to points in the same port area shall be reported as terminated at the port.

How was Cape Breton Coal reported by US railroads? Port of Boston records in 1923 broke down ship arrivals between "Foreign" and "Coastal." The one schooner carrying coal from Cape Breton was treated as a foreign vessel by the port authorities. Sydney NS was considered to be a foreign port. Thus, US RR's carrying this coal would treat these shipments as Originated on their line.

Or that's the way I would interpret it. Maybe others after reading the language would reach another opinion.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., "stefanelaine" <stefanelaine@y...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "armand" <armprem@s...> wrote:
This thread is going nowhere. We all enjoy what we saw or experienced.
Isn't that the beauty of this hobby? And some of us even enjoy what we
didn't experience first hand!
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC
(Modelling the SP in mid-1950s California, but surrounded by CPR);-)
I agree. I grew up watching the very last of SP Black Widow diesels
and started modeling big time SP diesels. One day I suddenly realized
that I'd never have a blimp hanger for a train room and a pre-WW2
shortline with a few steam engines and maybe 50 steam era freight cars
would be a whole lot easier to plan (and, I'm still hoping, execute).
I still like to watch today's trains, but will be the first to admit
they're pretty boring (no cabooses and only about five different
models of locomotives).

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California


Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

stefanelaine wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

About 3/4 of the rest originated in the west and it's known that a
good portion of this tonnage was handed over to the Spokane
International.
I find this interesting, given that the Crowsnest (south eastern BC)
coal deposits were so close to the SI via CPR. I would have thought
some substantial amonts would have benn exported south of the line.
Yes, I understand but the facts just don't support that assumption. 8-)

I've said on other occasions that the Canadian data shows only about 10% of
originated shipments of all goods were destined for US points (IIRC, paper
products being the largest). It just wasn't an open trade zone back then.

Where was the US coal shipped to? Vancouver? Calgary? East?
Don't know about 1956... But that year US originated coal delivered to
points in Canada was about 5 million tons -- a third of all coal moved by
rail in Canada. In 1957 it was about the same tonnage, 40% entered via
points in Ontario, 20% via Quebec, and most of the rest somewhere west of
the Great Lakes. n.b., I don't know how Canada classified U.S. coal moved
across the Great Lakes and then moved farther by rail. It could be
classified as originated in Canada or it could be classified as originated
in the U.S. All we know is it was at least 5 million tons of coal moved
north by some means.

Dave Nelson


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

oliver
 

--- In STMFC@..., "armand" <armprem@s...> wrote:
This thread is going nowhere. We all enjoy what we saw or experienced.
Isn't that the beauty of this hobby? And some of us even enjoy what we
didn't experience first hand!
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC
(Modelling the SP in mid-1950s California, but surrounded by CPR);-)


Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA

oliver
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

About 3/4 of the rest originated in the west and it's known that a
good portion of this tonnage was handed over to the Spokane
International.
I find this interesting, given that the Crowsnest (south eastern BC)
coal deposits were so close to the SI via CPR. I would have thought
some substantial amonts would have benn exported south of the line.
Where was the US coal shipped to? Vancouver? Calgary? East?
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC


Re: Retail coal dealers, brand names and railroads

Mark Heiden
 

Hello Ian,

Thanks for the reply. I've done some more research since I posted
this query, and I've come up with the following:

1. Did dealers tend to carry a single brand, or was it common to
carry more than one?

Allandale Lumber & Fuel Co.--"Old Company's Lehigh" and "Olga
Pocahontas"
Barrie Fuel & Supply--local supplier of "Blue Coal" (DL&W
Anthracite), also Cavalier stoker coal
Cameron & Ellis--local distributor for "Lehigh Valley Anthracite"
Lewis & Robertson--Cavalier stoker coal
Sarjeant Co.--"Famous Reading Anthracite" and Cavalier stoker coal
J. G. Scott--"Famous Reading Anthracite"
I haven't come across any definitive answer for this question. Most
of the dealers I've been able to locate seemed to carry one brand
only. Only one dealer carried two brands.


2. Were there independent coal dealers, who would simply carry
whatever brand gave them the best deal at the time?

The coal dealers cited above were all independent local
businessmen
(as the majority of the yards were). However, they could act as a
local agent (some exclusively, it would appear) for one or more
brands.
I've come to the same conclusion, with the majority of dealers
carrying only one brand.


3. What railroads were connected, through ownership, mines located
on-line, etc, with the following brands:

Blue Coal (Glen Alden Coal Company)
DL&W

Cavalier Stoker Coal
Consol Cavalier
Red Jacket Lump
Famous Harlan Seam Stoker Coal
unknown, off the top of my head

Famous Reading Anthracite
RDG

Sterling Coal
D&H


Lackawanna Coal
Jeddo-Highland Coal
unknown


Lehigh Valley Anthracite
LV


Morgan Anthracite
unknown


Old Company's Lehigh
L&NE


Olga Pocahontas
Patsy Home Stoker Coal
Susquehanna Anthracite
(some of these may be Canadian brands)
unknown
This one was rather interesting. Blue Coal (Glen Alden Coal
Company) was affiliated with the DL&W, but the photos I've found of
the Huber Colliery (home of Blue Coal; more about that later) show
Reading and a stray N&W hoppers. Were there car-pooling agreements?

Jeddo-Highland coal may have travelled in Lehigh Valley hoppers.
Two Jeddo-Highland breakers were served by the LV in the late 1960s:
Jeddo #5 was on the Freeland Branch, and Jeddo #7 was on the
Tomhicken Branch. Were these branches always LV, or were they
acquired from another railroad after the steam era?

Lackawanna Coal was affiliated with the Delaware & Hudson through
the Hudson Coal Company.

Susquehanna Anthracite may have travelled in Pennsylvania hoppers.
This company had an interesting history. It was originally owned by
the PRR, but sold to the M.A. Hanna Company by 1917. The breaker
was originally (around 1870) served by the PRR, by the Erie sometime
before 1900, then the D&H after 1900, then by the PRR again. Having
said all this, I'm not entirely sure that I've linked the brand name
to the correct company.

Morgan Anthracite might be an old brand name. This is pure
speculation, but the Susquehanna Anthracite breaker was located in
Glen Lyon, PA, originally named Morgantown. Morgan Anthracite may
have been the name this coal was marketed under prior to the sale to
the M.A. Hanna Company.

As for the others, I've found little or nothing. Consol Cavalier
appears to be a corporate name as well as a brand name. I discovered
a picture of a bituminous breaker in Kentucky with the Consol
Cavalier name emblazoned on it. More speculation, but Olga
Pocahantas may have travelled in Southern hoppers. The name
suggests the coal originated in the Virginia area, and there was a
small deposit of anthracite or semi-anthracite in western Virginia.
There's a photo in one of your books (might be the Palmerston book)
of a couple of Southern hoppers in Mildmay, Ontario. The town had a
coal dealer, but it also had some industries that may have received
bituminous coal.

6. Were there any spatial patterns evident in specific brand
dealer distribution (eg - eastern Pennsylvania was mostly Brand A,
while southern New York was Brand B)?

Not evident here in Southern Ontario. Keep in mind that virtually
all our anthracite came from the same small geographical area--
Eastern Pennsylvania.
I haven't found any evident spatial patterns in the eastern United
States.


Want a good origin for CNJ and/or CNP (Central Railroad of
Pennsylvania--same company) hopper car loads of anthracite?
Enter "Huber Colliery, Ashley, PA" on your waybills.
The Huber Colliery, in Ashley, Pennsylvania, acted as a regional
breaker for the Glen Alden Coal Company. Glen Alden purchased
several mines and breakers in the Nanticoke, Pennsylvania, area in
the 1920s and 1930s. The Huber breaker was built in the late 1930s,
and allowed Glen Alden to close many smaller, older breakers.
Subsequently, all mine-run coal was shipped to the Huber breaker for
cleaning and sorting. It appears that all of the Glen Alden mines
were located on CNJ branches, so all raw coal travelled in CNJ
hoppers.

Mark Heiden


Re: Obscure Northeastern Short Lines

branchline@...
 

The Good Doctor quips:

I do draw the line at the NYO&W, however (with apologies to
Bill Schneider), since most of its freight cars were too decrepit to
make it very far off line.
Well now! I have here a really nice photo of an O&W USRA hopper sent to me by some strange fellow in a far-off land..... Let me see now -

Ah, here it is.... Reweigh - AV (Middletown, O&W) 2-45, repack... could this be..... 4-24-46, N.P. UP. RR. (Mike might know where that is.) Hmmmmmmm....

Would you like the photo back for reference Richard? :>)

Bill


Re: Converting Red Caboose PFE Bettendorf underframes to built-ups

Andy Carlson
 

I no longer have these parts to offer to you guys.
Thanks for the quick responses.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

--- Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:

I have been asked by several people (all members of
this list) for me to make available Terry Wegmann's
HO
PFE built-up Underframe detail parts for the purpose
of applying to the Red Caboose Wood bodied ice
reefers.


Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

mcindoefalls wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

Most curious is the fact that fully half of the tonnage reported by
the Bureau as "delivered to US points" is attributed to either the
Maine Central or the (former) Pere Marquette.
The "Maine Central" traffic could have been Nova Scotia coal going to
Maine paper mills. Now, I wonder if it was an all-rail routing (CN
Nova Scotia to CP St. John to MEC Mattawamkeag) or if a water haul
was involved (collier to Searsport or Bucksport, Maine, perhaps?).
In the U.S., originating means mine to rail. Further, water to rail
shipments were classified as rail to rail, meaning whomever received it and
moving it once again classified it as received and not as originating. I
don't know if the Canadian Bureau used the same thinking but taking a guess
I'd say it probably did.

At any rate the key point is not much coal (or anything else for that
matter) moved south.

Dave Nelson


Thank You

Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...>
 

To everyone who has contacted me both on and off list (except for one individual) regarding the purchase of Life-Like Products by Wm. K. Walthers, thank you for your concern and support. Unfortunately, I will be travelling a lot in the next 45 days and will not be able to respond as quickly as I normally do to inquiries. On the plus side, I like both Chinese food and bratwurst.
Regards,
Larry Grubb

__________________________________________________
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Re: Canadian open hoppers in USA

mcindoefalls
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@c...> wrote:

Most curious is the fact that fully half of the tonnage reported by
the
Bureau as "delivered to US points" is attributed to either the Maine
Central
or the (former) Pere Marquette.
The "Maine Central" traffic could have been Nova Scotia coal going to
Maine paper mills. Now, I wonder if it was an all-rail routing (CN
Nova Scotia to CP St. John to MEC Mattawamkeag) or if a water haul was
involved (collier to Searsport or Bucksport, Maine, perhaps?).

Walt Lankenau


Re: Rutland (was something or other)

Tim O'Connor
 

Dick Dermody wrote

Richard Hendrickson wrote;

"And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the throttle of a
Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe, was more steam loco
than anything the Rutland ever owned."

Sorry, Richard, but the Rutland also owned the last 4-8-2's ever produced in
the United States. Admittedly, not the Western behemoths you cite, but more
than a trifle better than a Mikado.

Dick, those cute little Rutland "Mountains" (hee hee!) would have made
a light between-meals snack for a Great Northern O-8 Mike... :-)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Status of the Rutland (was Hoppers to and From Canada)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

englishintroy wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
The fact is that the Rutland
WAS "an obscure northeastern short line."

Richard, shortline devotees will tell you that the Rutland was far too
big of a railroad to qualify as a shortline at all, but others of more
flexible sensibility might accept it to say that the Rutland was
a "MAJOR northeastern short line".

IMO, the most accurate summation would be to describe the Rutland as
an "obscure northeastern Class I", which is a fact and what makes the
road attractive to me. Were it simply a shortline, I'd have no more
interest in it than any of the many other northeatsern shortlines.

Finally, to bore a few you still more, but to relate at least a little
to freight cars, the Rutland, having been once corporately related to
the vast New York Central, possessed many freight cars that were exact
duplicates of NYC's cars. This is something no shortline could claim.
In 1922, the six New England governors were alarmed at the state of the railroads in New England which were mainly an operating disaster. Their concerns were that the regional economy would collapse. Thus they did what all politicians do - set up a committee to define the problem and, then, make recommendations. The "New England Governors' Commission for a Comprehensive Transportation Policy" (gratefully shortened to the "Storrow Commission" ) issued two reports of which I am aware - in June 1923 and May 1931.

While the Storrow Commission could define the roles of all the Class I Railroads in New England, they gave up trying define the role of the Rutland which was half owned by the NYC and half owned by the New Haven. The Rutland was a step child.

Thus, financiers were unwilling to lend the Rutland to upgrade their property while massive amounts of funds became available to both the New Haven and B&M to modernize their properties. The results of the modernization of the B&M was to decrease freight train miles by 21% and freight train hours 31% between 1925 and 1929 while total freight car miles increased 6% and revenue ton miles increased only 1% in the same period. The Rutland's freight car miles decreased 15% (no RUT freight train hour data available) while total car miles decreased 5% and revenue ton miles 7% in the same 1925-29 period. The B&M had increases in car and revenue ton miles with a greater decrease in train miles than the Rutland which had declines in both car miles and revenue ton miles.

While the Rutland tried to remain a through car line up until its end in 1961, it consistently lost "market share" despite having a very aggressive sales forces after WW II.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Hoppers to and From Canada

armprem
 

Faster yes,but different terrain.Do you remember that the Rutland once
owned ships?(That is until the government scuttled the fleet).This thread is
going nowhere.We all enjoy what we saw or experienced ..Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Hoppers to and From Canada


On Jul 19, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Richard Dermody wrote:

Richard Hendrickson wrote;

"And for about twenty-five miles I was privliged to sit at the
throttle of a
Mikado that, though branch line power on the Santa Fe, was more steam
loco
than anything the Rutland ever owned."

Sorry, Richard, but the Rutland also owned the last 4-8-2's ever
produced in
the United States. Admittedly, not the Western behemoths you cite, but
more
than a trifle better than a Mikado.
Dick, I'll keep this short, as this isn't the steam loco list. I had,
indeed, forgotten about the Rutland's 4-8-2s, which were handsome and
capable locos for their size (though there were only four of them and
they didn't last long). With 73" drivers they were doubtless faster
than a typical western Mike but weighed little more and developed
considerably less tractive effort. A Santa Fe 2-8-2 built in the
mid-1920s would start more train, keep it moving better on grades, run
much farther between water stops with its 15K gal. tender, and after
modernization with disc main drivers was capable of sustained speeds in
the 60s, probably as fast or faster than freight trains ever ran on the
Rutland. "More than a trifle better?" I don't think so.




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Re: Digest Number 2559

Malcolm H. Houck
 

In a message dated 7/20/2005 4:28:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
I do draw the line at the NYO&W, however (with apologies to
Bill Schneider), since most of its freight cars were too decrepit to
make it very far off line.
Ah, yes............but the NYO&W Class P 2-8-0s were the heaviest of that
type, when delivered, and they provided yeoman service until the end of steam.
Also don't forget the lumbering Bullmoose 2-10-2 type, with tow pushing and one
pulling would roll 100 loaded hopper cars up out of Forest City. Nothing is
perhaps more regal looking (some D &H types aside) that an O&W "Light 400"
4-8-2, clean boiler, high headlight and all.

One needn't worry doubt modeling O&W freight cars. Not only were they elderly
and decrepit, they were so few in number as to be, beyond steel hoppers (and
before that wood hoppers in the thousands) to be rarely seen anywhere off
line. Milk cars (for another list) were plentiful, but also nary a time off line.
The intrigue is the motive power...............

Mal Houck


Re: Status of the Rutland (was Hoppers to and From Canada)

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
The fact is that the Rutland
WAS "an obscure northeastern short line."

Richard, shortline devotees will tell you that the Rutland was far too
big of a railroad to qualify as a shortline at all, but others of more
flexible sensibility might accept it to say that the Rutland was
a "MAJOR northeastern short line".

IMO, the most accurate summation would be to describe the Rutland as
an "obscure northeastern Class I", which is a fact and what makes the
road attractive to me. Were it simply a shortline, I'd have no more
interest in it than any of the many other northeatsern shortlines.

Finally, to bore a few you still more, but to relate at least a little
to freight cars, the Rutland, having been once corporately related to
the vast New York Central, possessed many freight cars that were exact
duplicates of NYC's cars. This is something no shortline could claim.

Jeff English
Troy, New York

153561 - 153580 of 196875