Date   

Re: ASF-A3 roller bearing trucks

Tim O'Connor
 

Garth

If you want 70 ton trucks, the best RB ASF A-3's are made by
Kato and Kadee. The Kato has rotating caps and so they don't
roll all that well but they are pretty.


Re: Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

Tim O'Connor
 

Truly rusted out looking, bad paint, illegible lettering was
-relatively- rare in the 1950's but was not unheard of -- and
a car that is only a few years old could get pretty cruddy in
the steam era. Yes, the bulk of box cars and reefers should
merely be "dirty" to various degrees, with reweigh stencils
and chalk marks being pretty common. In the 15 years after
WWII I think something like 1 MILLION freight cars were built
and other hundreds of thousands were repainted or rebuilt.
So in my opinion shiny NEW cars are under-represented on
most layouts. Every now and then just give one car a dip in
a bucket of Future. That should do the trick. Of course, the
date on the shiny car will pretty much fix the exact era of your
layout and the Prototype Police will put that information to good
use in their unrelenting quest to stamp out anachronisms!

Tim O'Connor

Let me give a specific example - let's say we are talking about
steel box car delivered in the late 40's or early 50's ... and has
gone thru a repaint that includes a major change in the lettering ...
and is at least 2 or 3 years after that repaint. So this car is
somewhere between 5 and 15 years old.


Re: Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Aug 11, 12:43pm, Gatwood, Elden wrote:
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era
I would imagine, however, that in your area, things were very different.
The RRs there may not have been in huge financial trouble, you did not
have months of nothing by rain (made acidic by air contaminants), and
other things that would contribute to a situation like Pittsburgh in the
post-war period.

Do these comments about regional weathering apply only to certain types of
cars (e.g. hoppers)?

I would expect that free-roaming cars (box cars) would not show regional
weathering because they roamed "freely" across the U.S.A. I believe CIL 1
(a Monon box car) spent a LONG time traveling around the country before
coming back to the rust-belt industrial areas of Indiana.

So even if it's a PRR X29, it may have spent just as much time in the
desert southwest as a car from the FEC, MEC, or SP.

Do the photos and consist data back up my theory, or am I full of it?

Regards,

-Jeff



--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

Gatwood, Elden <Elden.Gatwood@...>
 

Jim;
You bring up a very interesting subject, and one that I have done my own
looking into, for my area and era.

I would say, based on memory and photos of equipment and yard photos
(even more valuable), that this really doesn't apply to my area. The
PRR and numerous other northeastern roads were going through a real
crisis after WWII, occasioned by deferred equipment purchases and
rebuilds, delayed replacement of older cars, etc. The PRR called it the
"Freight Car Crisis" and it got very bad in the 1950's. The P&LE, NYC,
B&O, and others were suffering from this same thing.

I do agree that graffiti was not around in my area prior to the 70's,
but chalk marks were, although less evident in the 60's as computer
consists became more prevalent.

There are numerous photographs of freight cars, steam engines, and
diesels, in my area, in most eras, in horrible condition. Shots of
yards show brand new cars tied to long strings of terrible-looking cars.
Some cars are so rusty they had to paint patches on them to put the car
number and data back on.

While it is true that I have been accused of "going too far" on some of
my models, I am only re-creating what I know to be true. In my area,
there were large numbers of cars like you describe. I also model some
new or rebuilt cars, but no on seems to recognize that, and in fact,
they aren't that interesting.

I would imagine, however, that in your area, things were very different.
The RRs there may not have been in huge financial trouble, you did not
have months of nothing by rain (made acidic by air contaminants), and
other things that would contribute to a situation like Pittsburgh in the
post-war period.

Thank goodness for the difference! It makes our modeling so much more
interesting.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:39 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

We see guys selling stuff on eBay that have rust blowouts,
repaint bleed thrus (especially after an ownership change),
paint patches, spray can grafitti, etc. ... what I'd call
"heavy weathering". And we see photo examples of steam locos
- late in their active service (or after) - that are in pretty
bad shape (ie. heavily weathered/obviously in need of general
maintenance as opposed to a quick oil-aorund and lube).

BUT - it is my impression that this kind of weathering is - in
general - "later" ... that it started to show up on the RRs in
the 70's. And, more importantly, that other than -sometimes-
having a lot of 'road grime' that locos and cars were kept in
fairly good condition thruout the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Yes,
I know that maintenance was often deferred during WWII ... but
that meant 'more dirt' -most/some of the time- rather than
'more rust'.

Do you agree?

Let me give a specific example - let's say we are talking about
steel box car delivered in the late 40's or early 50's ... and has
gone thru a repaint that includes a major change in the lettering ...
and is at least 2 or 3 years after that repaint. So this car is
somewhere between 5 and 15 years old.
My belief is that it was relatively rare to see a car such as
this example with rust blow-outs, where the earlier paint scheme
is showing thru, heavy rust (not heavy grime!), etc. And also that
grafitti was fairly uncommon (most cars did not have any at all)
and what grafitti you did see was mostly done with chalk by a
hobo (rather than by some kid/vandal). Similarly, although you
did find the occasional "patch job" such as a repaint block around
the car data ... that this was very much the exception as opposed
to being "common" or even "fairly common".

It seems to me that a lot of us are over-using the exceptions
to these general rules - and/or effects that started showing up
very much later than the period in question - to weather equipment
for this era. Yeah, you might see a car or two in a hundred car
train that was significantly more weathered and/or in dis-repair
than the rest of them ... but that is not "the rule". Am I wrong?

Similarly - I think it was relatively rare to see a "paint shop
fresh" freight car in this era. Yeah, we've all seen the publicity
photos for stuff like the GN circus train or the initiation of a
new service such as the Overnight but even those ended up with
light to moderate weathering very quickly. Agreed?

I base this on photos in books that are from the 40's into
the 60's for freight cars -and- for locomotives photos from
the 30's and 40's. When I look at a picture of a yard or an
entire freight train all I see is a "general grime" - isn't
that what you see?
- Jim in San Jose

===> Hi, my name is Jim ...
and I have a "Hobby Shop in the Closet" problem.




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Jim,

Weathering is very subjective, as it relates to the person doing the work. As always, the best way to determine what you want to represent is by working from photos. Even b&w prints will give the subtle shades for different effects of dirt, earth, mud, and so on.......
If I were to do something for the1930's, it may have a cleaner look to the power, and a dusty look to the cars. For the WWII era, about 50% ore filth on the power and cars. Post 1946, some tried to put on a good appearance, and others didn't have the $$$ for such things. With each 3-4 years afteer this time the weathering gets heavier on everything. The era of deferred maintainence was beginning, and steam was on the way out. Don't fix it, scrap it was the order of the day. Here I would expect to find the grime[ aka the ink & alcohol method] that builds up on rivet details. Also, the regional colors of "dirt" , say rust orange & brown in the northeast-----sand & mud from the west-----shades of greys from the southern area. The later into the 50's---the more filth builds up.

Fred Freitas

My wife turned me in for having a hobby shop in two closets!! Ahhhhhh, the scratchbuilders paradise.......

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Betz
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era


We see guys selling stuff on eBay that have rust blowouts,
repaint bleed thrus (especially after an ownership change),
paint patches, spray can grafitti, etc. ... what I'd call
"heavy weathering". And we see photo examples of steam locos
- late in their active service (or after) - that are in pretty
bad shape (ie. heavily weathered/obviously in need of general
maintenance as opposed to a quick oil-aorund and lube).

BUT - it is my impression that this kind of weathering is - in
general - "later" ... that it started to show up on the RRs in
the 70's. And, more importantly, that other than -sometimes-
having a lot of 'road grime' that locos and cars were kept in
fairly good condition thruout the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Yes,
I know that maintenance was often deferred during WWII ... but
that meant 'more dirt' -most/some of the time- rather than
'more rust'.

Do you agree?

Let me give a specific example - let's say we are talking about
steel box car delivered in the late 40's or early 50's ... and has
gone thru a repaint that includes a major change in the lettering ...
and is at least 2 or 3 years after that repaint. So this car is
somewhere between 5 and 15 years old.
My belief is that it was relatively rare to see a car such as
this example with rust blow-outs, where the earlier paint scheme
is showing thru, heavy rust (not heavy grime!), etc. And also that
grafitti was fairly uncommon (most cars did not have any at all)
and what grafitti you did see was mostly done with chalk by a
hobo (rather than by some kid/vandal). Similarly, although you
did find the occasional "patch job" such as a repaint block around
the car data ... that this was very much the exception as opposed
to being "common" or even "fairly common".

It seems to me that a lot of us are over-using the exceptions
to these general rules - and/or effects that started showing up
very much later than the period in question - to weather equipment
for this era. Yeah, you might see a car or two in a hundred car
train that was significantly more weathered and/or in dis-repair
than the rest of them ... but that is not "the rule". Am I wrong?

Similarly - I think it was relatively rare to see a "paint shop
fresh" freight car in this era. Yeah, we've all seen the publicity
photos for stuff like the GN circus train or the initiation of a
new service such as the Overnight but even those ended up with
light to moderate weathering very quickly. Agreed?

I base this on photos in books that are from the 40's into
the 60's for freight cars -and- for locomotives photos from
the 30's and 40's. When I look at a picture of a yard or an
entire freight train all I see is a "general grime" - isn't
that what you see?
- Jim in San Jose

===> Hi, my name is Jim ...
and I have a "Hobby Shop in the Closet" problem.



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Re: Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

ajfergusonca <ajferguson@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Jim Betz <jimbetz@j...> wrote:
it is my impression that this kind of weathering is - in
general - "later" ... that it started to show up on the RRs in
the 70's. And, more importantly, that other than -sometimes-
having a lot of 'road grime' that locos and cars were kept in
fairly good condition thruout the 40's, 50's, and 60's.
Do you agree?

===> Hi, my name is Jim ...
and I have a "Hobby Shop in the Closet" problem.
Jim:
The photos I have from the 50s and earlier show grimed over
lettering (they were behind steam engines after all)to the point
that they look faded. Tank cars are the worst with spilled oil
picking up grime. Cars in special service such as lime also show
spills. Only cars on the scrap line show rust blowouts and older
paint schemes showing through. A box car that didn't seal would not
qualify for a lot of better services. Modelers are sometimes guilty
of the "John Allen" look with cars that would not be left in service.

Hi, my name is Allen.. and I have taken the first step by promising
to take 4 large boxes to the local flea market and to share a table
thereby becoming a pusher.


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models (Was: ATSF class Bx-49)

Eric
 

Ben Hom wrote:

"Nice try, but the sides of most older boxcars are WAY too thick (the same reason why most model
wreck-damaged cars are unconvincing). A bunch of old Globe metal sides would be a great start,
though!"

Well, after cutting the sides free from the car body, you could sand their backs on a piece of glass
with sand paper glued to it or after sticking enough of them side by side to fill a gondola you
could run a razor saw lengthwise along the top to represent the many thin stacked side components
like is done to represent wood grain.

Eric Petersson





________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag


Weathering for Late Steam and Transition Era

Jim Betz
 

We see guys selling stuff on eBay that have rust blowouts,
repaint bleed thrus (especially after an ownership change),
paint patches, spray can grafitti, etc. ... what I'd call
"heavy weathering". And we see photo examples of steam locos
- late in their active service (or after) - that are in pretty
bad shape (ie. heavily weathered/obviously in need of general
maintenance as opposed to a quick oil-aorund and lube).

BUT - it is my impression that this kind of weathering is - in
general - "later" ... that it started to show up on the RRs in
the 70's. And, more importantly, that other than -sometimes-
having a lot of 'road grime' that locos and cars were kept in
fairly good condition thruout the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Yes,
I know that maintenance was often deferred during WWII ... but
that meant 'more dirt' -most/some of the time- rather than
'more rust'.

Do you agree?

Let me give a specific example - let's say we are talking about
steel box car delivered in the late 40's or early 50's ... and has
gone thru a repaint that includes a major change in the lettering ...
and is at least 2 or 3 years after that repaint. So this car is
somewhere between 5 and 15 years old.
My belief is that it was relatively rare to see a car such as
this example with rust blow-outs, where the earlier paint scheme
is showing thru, heavy rust (not heavy grime!), etc. And also that
grafitti was fairly uncommon (most cars did not have any at all)
and what grafitti you did see was mostly done with chalk by a
hobo (rather than by some kid/vandal). Similarly, although you
did find the occasional "patch job" such as a repaint block around
the car data ... that this was very much the exception as opposed
to being "common" or even "fairly common".

It seems to me that a lot of us are over-using the exceptions
to these general rules - and/or effects that started showing up
very much later than the period in question - to weather equipment
for this era. Yeah, you might see a car or two in a hundred car
train that was significantly more weathered and/or in dis-repair
than the rest of them ... but that is not "the rule". Am I wrong?

Similarly - I think it was relatively rare to see a "paint shop
fresh" freight car in this era. Yeah, we've all seen the publicity
photos for stuff like the GN circus train or the initiation of a
new service such as the Overnight but even those ended up with
light to moderate weathering very quickly. Agreed?

I base this on photos in books that are from the 40's into
the 60's for freight cars -and- for locomotives photos from
the 30's and 40's. When I look at a picture of a yard or an
entire freight train all I see is a "general grime" - isn't
that what you see?
- Jim in San Jose

===> Hi, my name is Jim ...
and I have a "Hobby Shop in the Closet" problem.


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models (Was: ATSF class Bx-49)

oliver
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Fred in Vt." <pennsy@s...> wrote:
Without fail, you toss it out, and 3 weeks later an article appears
which uses said dumpster fodder as the starting point. Rather be
model retentive than the alternative.

Well, that's because a certain magazine has been sitting on the
relevant kitbashing article for the last ten years and finally has
decided to publish the material;-)
cheers
Stefan



----- Original Message -----
From: Beckert, Shawn
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Our stashes of obsolete models (Was: ATSF
class Bx-49)


Tom Madden confessed:

> My name is Tom, and I have a junk retention problem.........

We all do. I shudder to think how many old kits are in storage
at the moment, waiting for when I have time and space to try
and resurrect them. Yes, it would be better to toss the whole
lot into a dumpster, but there's something about throwing out
stuff that you spent your hard-earned cash on (no matter how
outdated it is now) that just goes against my (packrat) nature.

Shawn Beckert


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Re: ASF-A3 roller bearing trucks

oliver
 

Garth,
These are what you need:
http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/Athearn-Genesis-Trucks-70-Ton-Roller-Bearing-Trucks/item141-4598.html
Hope that helps some...
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC

--- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@v...> wrote:
Friends,

I am building a WP 29' coil gondola (series 6401-6500, built by
Greenville, 1953). These came with ASF-A3 roller bearing trucks, the
first large-scale application on the WP. I have a hard enough time
telling so-called Bettendorf trucks apart and am completely at sea with
roller bearings. I have Atlas roller bearing trucks under it now. Kadee
also makes a "roller bearing" truck (different from their roller
bearing
Barber S-2). Do either of these match the ASF prototype? Other
suggestions?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


ASF-A3 roller bearing trucks

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

I am building a WP 29' coil gondola (series 6401-6500, built by Greenville, 1953). These came with ASF-A3 roller bearing trucks, the first large-scale application on the WP. I have a hard enough time telling so-called Bettendorf trucks apart and am completely at sea with roller bearings. I have Atlas roller bearing trucks under it now. Kadee also makes a "roller bearing" truck (different from their roller bearing Barber S-2). Do either of these match the ASF prototype? Other suggestions?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


modeling follows life

ed_mines
 

How about all those hulks of real railroad rolling stock rotting away
in museums?

With those Ulrich cars it's remembering what they once were. Those
WWII gons vere really something when they first came out.

To the average person (not a model railroader) old Athearn cars look
pretty good still but hose C&BT cars were clunkers the day they were
made. At least we helped the misguided soul who manufactured them keep
his head a little higher above the water (I don't think he got rich
from that misadventure).

Tony is right about the brass track. Why make life more complicated for
someone else? My father bought a lot of Lionel "slightly used". It
would have been much nicer if a few of the accessories worked.

Ed


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models

Jeff English
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
That being the case, what did you do with the brass, fiber
tie track?
Put it in the trash.
Me too. The HO layout I half built when I was a teenager was left for
dead at my parents house 35 years ago. When it came time for my
brothers and I to clean out the house a couple of years ago, it was
left to me to demolish the carcass of my adolescent dreams. I had no
regrets, although it was an opportunity to take a stroll down memory
lane.

Jeff English
Troy, New York


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

That being the case, what did you do with the brass, fiber tie track?
Put it in the trash.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Tony,

That being the case, what did you do with the brass, fiber tie track?

Fred F

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Our stashes of obsolete models


Jim Hill wrote:
> One good use for those obsolete, unwanted, un-needed and/or surplus
> models
> is to find a way to get them into the hands of young modelers or
> newcomers
> to the hobby. You can find potential candidates for donations at model
> railroad clubs, boys and girls clubs, scout troops, schools, etc.

I don't agree. This is in the same direction as giving them old
brass track (showing my age on that one). Don't give 'em crap: give 'em
something they can enjoy, and make sure it has all its parts, at least.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


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Stashes

armprem
 

I may have a solution to our problem.Let's swap stashes.I may have some stuff that someone else might want,etc,etc,etc.Simply put, I too have more than I will ever need and yet keep adding to the clutter (some sort of compulsion).I have an understanding wife who has exiled me to the basement to be with my treasures(She has yet to discover what I have stashed away in the attic) 8 > ).Armand Premo


Re: K Brake air plumbing

lrkdbn
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@h...> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I have a question about the air line plumbing for one-piece K
brakes.
Many photos seem to show the air line that runs between the air
tank
and the train line as running across the center sill and connecting
with the train line on the side opposite of the sill from the brake
assembly. On the other hand, I have a picture of a C&NW single-
sheathed boxcar that seems to show the air line as running from the
brake assembly up to the floor of the car, connecting with the
train
air line on the same side of the center sill. Is there a typical
arrangement for this plumbing, or does it vary across cars?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden
I have noticed the same thing- I think it reflects where the train
pipe crosses the center sill. The old MCB recommended practice was
for it to cross near one of the trucks and travel down the center
sill on the side opposite the brake cylinder. Hence the branch pipe
crosses under the center sill. On many cars, however the train pipe
crossed at the center of the car thus the branch pipe would drop
vertically and then go horizontally to the triple valve. Of course
there were all kinds of variations and exceptions to this, and hard
info on brake arrangements for a particular series of cars is often
hard to find. I recommend the Car Builders Cyc's if you hace access
to them, and the Newton Gregg "Train Shed Cyclopedia reprints of them.

Larry King


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models

golden1014
 

Brothers,

Some of you guys need to be more mobile. All it takes
is one cross-country move to realize that keeping dead
projects isn't worth the cost of the move. For that
matter, they're not worth the cost of keeping them dry
in the rainy season or warm during winter.

On the other hand, Andy Harmon has a nice thing going
at RPM meets--for those of you who've seen his
display. He's kept a few old "prototype models" from
years past in his collection to bring to meets. It's a
great way to show just how far we've all come. I've
copied that, and have kept around a few old-timers for
that very purpose...

Also, don't forget that all those old plastic models
and cardboard boxes can be put in the recycle bin, so
they're technically not wasted. They'll come back to
life as a new Branchline or P2K-Walthers car, or maybe
as parts of a Thomas set for your sons or grandsons.

John


John Golden
O'Fallon, IL
http://www.pbase.com/golden1014

2nd Annual St. Louis Railroad Prototype Modeler's Meet
August 20th, 2005
Collinsville, IL
Contact: John Golden, Golden1014@...


Santa Fe Diagram Books - Do Any Exist?

Shawn Beckert
 

Fellow Listers,

Did the Santa Fe ever produce a freightcar diagram book for
the 1950's, or any other time period, for that matter?

Obviously Mssr's Hendrickson, Jordan, et.al. got the material
for their books from an original source, yet I've never seen
such a publication at any swap meet that I've ever attended.

Do any originals still exist?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Our stashes of obsolete models (Was: ATSF class Bx-49)

Park Varieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

I have a number of Athearn metal AAR box car sides from the late 1940's available for anyone wishing to use them for loads. These are just the car sides, not the wrap-around shell used in later Athearn metal car kits. Lettering is poor which may be great for a scrap load. You can have them at 3 pair for $1.00 plus actual shipping cost to your ZIP Code. Please respond directly to me at parkvarieties@....

Frank Brua

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:40 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re:Our stashes of obsolete models (Was: ATSF class Bx-49)


Eric Petersson wrote:
"Here's an idea.
A couple of years ago I came across a photo of a stack of box car sides
being loaded into a gondola.
You could go through a bunch of cars building that load."

Nice try, but the sides of most older boxcars are WAY too thick (the
same reason why most model wreck-damaged cars are unconvincing). A
bunch of old Globe metal sides would be a great start, though!


Ben Hom




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