Re: dutch drop

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>

This is a "drop". The "Dutch Drop" has the loco speed ahead, throw a switch,
then loco REVERSES and goes hidey-hole into the spur, switch thrown again,
and car rolls past. Its that reversing that gets interesting! Nothing like
having your locomotive heading back toward a rolling car to get your
attention.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

My impression of the Dutch Drop was that, to get a car into a facing
point spur, the engine sped up and then the car to be dropped was
uncoupled. then the engine sped up even more and as it passed the
switch the points were thrown and the car rolled into the spur.
Getting the engine far enough ahead of the car to stop, back into a
trailing point spur (assuming there was one handy) and throw the
switch back would seem impossible, as well as even more dangerous, to
do.
Bill Williams

Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>

My thoughts were motorized momentum in the cars, or flywheel driven momentum
in the cars. DCC is too much for individual cars when it is possible to
simply (yeah, right!) have the car sense its own speed and through a
computer program onboard the car control the momentum motor that drives the
wheels, or provides resistance. A flywheel may be a lot easier, not sure
about cheaper. It would provide a sort of brake when stopped, but it
certainly would push the train along when moving!

Tom Jones III

----- Original Message -----
Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It
(snip)
Then after accomplishing this you run into the problem of how our layouts
aren't actual scale
models, in fact most don't even approach being scale. Most are so
drastically foreshortened that a
1:1 freight car's dynamics when scaled down acting under the forces of
momentum would roll much
farther than most of our sidings and yards are long. A freight taking a
mile to stop would take how
many dozen laps of most of our layouts to achieve that? That's if you
don't have a point to point,
in that case it just goes over the edge because the world is flat. Here
there be dragons and they
find model railroad equipment to be tasty. That's why it keeps
disappearing off the edge of the
layout, never to be seen again. :-)

The more you try to mimic the prototype the more you end up demonstrating
the reality that our
models are basically toys, well, expensive toys.

Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>

More like the application of fuel prices and safety issues (i.e., liability
claims) that moved railroads to roller bearings.

Fuel at the time that article was written (1903) was virtually a zero cost
item for many railroads, so starting a heavy train and keeping it going with
the attendant friction from solid bearings, and the additional fuel expense
was not a biggie. For some railroads, simply taking the coal from one of
their own mines and moving it to the coaling towers was the sole additional
expense. Modernly, its too bad you can't burn coal in Diesels . . . shipping
by train would be much cheaper!

Additionally, solid bearings have a cute propensity of overheating when
poorly lubed and catching the train on fire, or at least melting off the
axle end once in a while. Roller bearings also fail from lack of
maintenance, but they don't require an inspection at every stop, oiling on a
regular basis, people to go out and fill the waste and oil box on the
journals, piles of cotton waste and gallons of spilled oil everywhere with
the EPA looking over your shoulder, and on and on and on. Finally, spun off
axle ends still happen, but not nearly as frequently as with solid bearings.

The final straw was that the cost of copper and other metals used to cast
solid bearing brass (actually a form of bronze) became higher and higher
while the cost of machined steel got lower and lower. There was simply no
longer an economic reason to go for the less safe, higher friction,
relatively higher cost solid bearings.

So, you are right - its ALWAYS the money!

Tom Jones III

----- Original Message -----
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

(snip)

Something happened in later years for the ultimate conversion to
roller-journals, probably a significant reduction in costs in
applying them to 100's of thousands of freight-cars?? (It's ALWAYS

Paul Hillman

Re: Kaslo double dutch drop

PBowers <waiting@...>

Canadian Pacific had an interesting "double dutch drop??" in Kaslo and probably one of the longest movements of tat type. The inbound train left the van on the mainline with brake on as it was an approx 2% grade. The loco and train pulled over the switch, reversed direction and then went down another approx 2% grade to the dock. Once the train was clear, the van brake was released and it rolled to the opposite end of the yard which was on a almost 5% grade. The van reversed direction and returned back to the switch down to the dock where the brakeman, after changing the switch to the dock track reboarded and rode the van down the grade coasting to a stop near the rest of the train. The length of track travelled was about a half mile.

Peter Bowers

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rivet counters gathering in N. Virginia Sat, Aug 27

lnbill <bwelch@...>

Just a note to let people know that they can call me at home today,
Friday, if they have any questions about the informal gathering I am
hosting tomorrow at the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of
Fairfax, 2709 Hunter Mill Road, in Oakton, VA. Go to www.uucf.org for
a map. My number is 703.242.7973. I won't be seeing email after I
send this.

We are the second exit on I-66 past the National Capital Beltway
heading west. Take the fork that says Vienna-Oakton and at the third
light turn left onto Hunter Mill Road and go about .8 of a mile. We
are on the right just past the Church of Later Day Saints or Mormon
Church.

Walking in from the parking lot, we will be in the building to your
left. I am going to try to put a few signs up and I will be keeping
an eye out. Bring models, books you think people are interested in,
etc. Remember to bring your lunch or money to get something nearby.
People will start showing u about 9 AM and we will wind up around 3
PM or so. A couple of presentations are planned that I know of, and
we will have a lot of time to get acquainted.

See you tomorrow!

Bill Welch

Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Paul Hillman

Tony Thompson wrote;

Looking into roller bearing history, Timken was selling roller
bearings for horse-drawn equipment in 1893. Their bearings were
incorporated into automobiles quite early, and into machine tools
before World War I. (Timken began to call their product an
"anti-friction" bearing around 1910.) It is an indication of the
conservatism of railroad mechanical people that railroad
applications came as late as they did.
***************************************************************

Response,

In the 1903 book, "Railroad Construction-Theory & Practice", which I
afore referred to, concerning at that time the application of roller-
journals to freight cars;

" But the advantages (of roller-journals) disappear as the velocity
increases. The advantages also decrease as the load is increased, so
that with heavily loaded cars the gain is small. The excess of cost
for construction and maintenance has been found to be more than the
gain from power saved."

Their thoughts in 1903 were apparently more along the lines of
better lubrication of "solid-bearings";

" The resistance could probably be materially lowered (in 'ordinary -
journals') if some practicable form of journal-box could be devised
which would give a more perfect lubrication."

Something happened in later years for the ultimate conversion to
roller-journals, probably a significant reduction in costs in
applying them to 100's of thousands of freight-cars?? (It's ALWAYS

Paul Hillman

Re: dutch drop

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>

The Dutch drop is not inherently unsafe, just a bit trickier than a simple
drop or a kick. The trick is to keep the moving dropped car's velocity low,
or perhaps have a slight grade to assist and simply let gravity move the
car. Putting a brakeman on the car to help control speed (or stop the car in
case of emergency) can help. All this can be achieved with a car with
sufficient mass that it has high inertia, as most prototype cars have.
Except for the run in I described in a much earlier post, I think the most
embarassing I have actually seen in a Dutch drop situation was when the
dropped car had only enough energy to drive it to the center of the switch -
trapping the locomotive on the spur and the car spanning the points, no
poling pole. Whoops. The crew ended up pushing the offending car out of the
way with a Jeep from a nearby grain elevator.

Tom Jones

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [STMFC] dutch drop

Snip) The fact that the move is obviously dangerous and can go
wrong, does NOT mean it went wrong all the time.

Re: ADMIN: Weather= Not

Paul Hillman

Mike Brock wrote;

"I will also add that weather and climate...unless closely associated with
frt cars...is out of scope."

************************************************************
Mike,

That's really interesting, because I was just NOW reading from my 1903 book, "Railroad Construction-Theory & Practice", Prof. Walter L. Webb, C.E. ;

Chapter XVI, 'Train resistance', ( b ) Journal friction of the axles;

(4) "It is observed that freight-train loads must be cut down in winter by about 10 to 15% of the loads that the same engine can haul over the same track in summer. This is due partly to the extra roughness and inelasticity of the track in winter, and partly to increased radiation from the engine wasting some energy, but this will not account for all of the loss, and the effect, which is probably due largely to the lower temperature of the journal-boxes, is very marked and costly. It has been suggested that a jacketing of the journal-boxes, which would prevent rapid radiation of heat and enable them to retain some of the heat developed by friction, would result in a saving amply repaying the cost of the device."

Thus, in Cocoa Beach in January, longer, heavier trains can be run than in Chicago, etc.. Now you can prototypically factor that into the reasons for your meet.

Paul Hillman

Re: Steve Solombrino ( was The Springfield Show)

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"I don't need to point this out to most of you, but not ALL of the
best modelers in the country are into the "RPM scene". There are many
fabulous models on display at Springfield (as there are at regional
shows and meets all over the country). One of my favorite displays
at Springfield is the Pfaudler tables, where superb, scratchbuilt
models of milk trains are on display. And way back in 1989 before
I even knew my A end from a B end, I was awestruck by a Prototype
Modelers' display led by Steve Solombrino, a great modeler who to
my knowledge has never attended a single RPM meet. RPM meets only
attract 1% or less of model railroaders -- you can be sure you are
missing out on a lot of great modeling if that's all you do."

Tim, point well taken; however, in 1989, Steve Solombrino was a fixture at
RPM meets (back in the day of the old paper RPM newsletters). If you go
back to Schleicher's coverage of the meets in MRG and RMJ from the late
1980s, you'll see his models.

Ben Hom

Re: dutch drop

Richard White

Chet French said:

"A "Dutch drop" is when the engine changes directions to get in the clear,
during the move. Usually the dutch drop was made where gravity would lend a
helping hand with a slight grade. Often the brakes could be released on a
car or cars, and they would roll by the engine, unassisted. We generally
would give the cars an easy kick uphill, put the engine in the clear, and
wait for the cars to stop and roll back downhill past the engine."

It occurs to me that with a steam locomotice this move would be very tricky
unless there was a gradient to help as Chet says and even more so if the
locomotive was not fitted with a lever reverser as a screw reverser or most
of the steam reversers that I have seen in use would take too long to change
from forward to reverse gear. With a lever reverser it's quick to change
direction. For this reason, most UK steam shunting (=switching) locomotives
were fitted with a lever reverse.

Richard White

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Re: Napierville Dates

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>

Gerard,

The dates are Thursday, October 27th through Sunday Morning, October 30th.

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479

Gerard J Fitzgerald wrote:

Hi All,

Not to start another round of comparisons of which meet is best (they are all
wonderful in some sense).... I just need the dates for Napierville this year.
Thanks.

Gerard

Dr. Gerard J. Fitzgerald
Postdoctoral fellow, Center for Bioethics
University of Pennsylvania Medical School

Re: Bob's photos

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>

Springfield may have a waiting list of vendors, but they when they finally select a vendor to fill a spot, apparently they won't guarantee the table space until the vendor arrives to set up. Martin Lofton has been asked to attend as a vendor a number of times by the people who run this show, but when he asked if they could guarantee him the table space, their reply was that he had to arrive at the door and they would then see what they could do.

Martin said that each time that he was asked, he told them that he would only come if they could guarantee the table space as he was not traveling across the country, only to arrive and find that they could not fit him in!

That is why Sunshine Models had only been attending the Great Scale Train Show at Timonium Maryland. He knows that he will get the space to set up that he paid in advance for! How could anyone run a show where they invite the dealer/manufacturer to participate, but cannot guarantee as space until he arrives? At this time it is a moot point as Martin has reduced his traveling to shows by almost 75% over the years due to his work backlog.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Fred in Vt. wrote:

Rich,

You're forgiven, and you can come back north anytime. Heck, I live in southern Vermont, and snow season is the best time to sit in a warm shop & build away. Springfield must be doing something right, there is a waiting list of 60 vendors who want to attend.
Plus, it helps to have the major NE cities close by too.
If you get to really missing the place, I could always send a snowball in a cryo-pac !! <LOL>

Fred Freitas
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson To: STMFC@... Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Bob's photos

On Aug 24, 2005, at 8:35 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:
>
> Springfield Massachusetts, Tony... in January. Bob has several hundred
> books, and chairs to sit on. And there are other excellent photo dealers
> there too.

Springfield, Mass. in January? When Cocoa Beach, Fla. is an alternative? Give me, as we say, a break. The Springfield meet is all very well for those who already live in the area, but I spent three winters in New England once and I ain't goin' back.

Richard Hendrickson

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Re: Bob's photos

Schuyler Larrabee

OK, so it's a little cold in January in Springfield. Maybe.

My sister called me a few days ago from North Carolina, and mentioned that the temperature was going
to be over 100 for the fourth day in a row, and she was looking forward to it's cooling off into the
90s in a few days. And it was humid.

Another good friend lives in FL. Used to live near Philadelphia. Complains about how his sinuses
give him trouble in FL, because the AC makes things so dry in the house . . .and he has to stay in
the house because of the heat. Wishes he still lived in PA.

OK, so it's a little cold in January in Springfield.

I'll take it.

Besides, it's a great show!

SGL

----- Original Message -----
From: David Owens
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Bob's photos

You chicken littles are depriving yourselves of the finest
train show
in the country. A little snow, a little ice, no problem.

Dave Owens

Napierville Dates

Gerard J Fitzgerald <gjf@...>

Hi All,

Not to start another round of comparisons of which meet is best (they are all
wonderful in some sense).... I just need the dates for Napierville this year.
Thanks.

Gerard

Dr. Gerard J. Fitzgerald
Postdoctoral fellow, Center for Bioethics
University of Pennsylvania Medical School

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

I will also add that weather and climate...unless closely associated with frt cars...is out of scope. Come on, guys, you know the rules. There are over 900 members in the STMFC and they signed on to discuss frt cars, not weather.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

Admin: Re: Cocoa Beach-Springfield

Mike Brock <brockm@...>

Well...I think we've beaten the Springfield subject to death. As the rules specify, announcements about prototype modeling meets are allowed...although only announcements. Train shows are not within scope although an announcement is probably not going to provoke a response from the judge. Anyhow, Springfield and discussions about train shows are now decared out of scope.

Time to get back to frt cars. Thanks.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

New England WX

oklacnw@...

I've lived in Florida and California, and I'll take the New England weather any time over Floridas' hurricanes and Californias' earthquakes. Now, if I could just find a good reason to leave tornado land! :-)

Al

Al Erdmann, CNWHS 134CF, NMRA L04150, McCor L088

Re: The Springfield Show

Tim O'Connor

Armand Premo wrote

The seminars are super with presentations by some of the best
modelers in the country ...
I don't need to point this out to most of you, but not ALL of the
best modelers in the country are into the "RPM scene". There are many
fabulous models on display at Springfield (as there are at regional
shows and meets all over the country). One of my favorite displays
at Springfield is the Pfaudler tables, where superb, scratchbuilt
models of milk trains are on display. And way back in 1989 before
I even knew my A end from a B end, I was awestruck by a Prototype
Modelers' display led by Steve Solombrino, a great modeler who to
my knowledge has never attended a single RPM meet. RPM meets only
attract 1% or less of model railroaders -- you can be sure you are
missing out on a lot of great modeling if that's all you do.

Tim O'Connor

Re: Cocoa Beach-Springfield

Tim O'Connor

anThONY wrote

As for Naperville vs. Cocoa vs. Springfield, I've been voting
with my feet for some years and expect to continue to do so.
Hmmmm... stuck in a rut, Tony? Maybe you need a change of scene. :-)

Tim "stuck in a canyon" O'Connor

Re: Cocoa Beach-Springfield

Tim O'Connor

Given that, comparing events like Springfield to that at Cocoa Beach is
like comparing the west coast to the east coast. Both have coast lines.
Mike Brock

You're missing the point, Mike. The question is where to spend time and
money, and for what purpose? Just because Cocoa Beach is RPM doesn't mean
it doesn't have to compete with "train shows", Red Sox season tickets,
car payments, and other necessities of life. My argument is that you can
hardly swing a dead cat without hitting an RPM meet anymore, but there
is only one Springfield. :-)

Tim O'Connor, RPM, RPA, BAMF, CORSN