Date   

Re: Bob's photos

Fred in Vt. <pennsy@...>
 

Tony,

In fairness to Martin, I would not pay up front & not have a guaranteed spot on the floor. Some folks are getting over-inflated, and need a reality check.
As for Al, that was a nightmare. Al & Patricia waited till the next day to head home; just in time for a 20 some inch snow fall. IIRC, they had soda cans explode in their vehicle from the -10 temps.
Mrs. westerfield may be from Vermont, but Al does NOT DO SNOW. Have no reason to feel deprived by his decision, I can order on line.
For those who may never have operated in snow------it's different!!!
Now back to the regular programming >>>>>.

I'm trying to find an answer for a fellow modeler up here, and I did not have a clue to the right explanaton. Would one the more knowledgable please indulge me with the difference between Z bracing, and what some call "exteral bracing". Not to be confused with hat section structural members. It's one of those things I should know, and can't recall it. Drat !!!
Thanks.......

Fred Freitas

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: Bob's photos


Thomas M. Olsen wrote:

> Springfield may have a waiting list of vendors, but they when they
> finally select a vendor to fill a spot, apparently they won't guarantee
> the table space until the vendor arrives to set up. Martin Lofton has
> been asked to attend as a vendor a number of times . . .

And Westerfield has told us he went once and isn't going again.
So Springfield isn't exactly presenting "all the big resin producers."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


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Re: OT stuck photos

Allen Rueter <allen@...>
 

Paul,
Soak them in water till they seperate, you will lose the glossy finish.
You will need a towel and some books to dry them flat.
If you know a person who does there own prints or a lab, they may have a
print dryer with the polished metal plate to get the gloss back.

Good luck. ex-darkroom guy.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 03:06:17PM -0500, Paul Hillman wrote:
8<
But, I have another film OT question; what's the best way to separate print-film pictures that are stuck together?

--
------
Allen P Rueter Phone: 314/935-6429 email allen :) artsci.wustl.edu
.oO* there are at least three sides to every issue.


Re: Kodak - Slightly Off Topic...but Only Slightly.

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Hillman" <chris_hillman@m...>
wrote:
Yeah, not quite sure what the current, real quality of digital is,
(short of a $3,000.00 digital camera, etc.), but it looks like
the "old" print system is definitely on the way out. I used to
develop my own film and prints a few years back. I still have a 35mm
SLR and love it.

But, I have another film OT question; what's the best way to
separate print-film pictures that are stuck together?

Paul Hillman

Paul - I think you might try soaking the print film pictures in
distilled water - they were developed in water in the first place.
They should separate.

It is my understanding that a single 35mm black and white negative
holds the equivalent of 80 megapixels of data in "analog" form
(actually, it is digital when you get down to the molecular level).
A single 2-1/4" X 2-1/4" B&W negative holds 150 megapixels of data.
The negative is also a much better way to store data archivally -
the compact disc technology will probably be long obsolete, while
B&W negatives will still be great. I also understand that a digital
image on a compact disc will only last for about 20 years before it
needs to be removed and placed on new media. Maybe by then, a more
permanent form of storage will have been invented. A digital
picture can be transferred as a jpeg file several times before it
starts to break up - but when it does start to break up, it goes
away in spectacular fashion.

The above info comes from various articles in "Photo Techniques"
magazine. They are somewhat impartial - also do research on digital
and new wet photography films and papers.

Just another example of instant gratification over craftsmanship and
quality! A.T. Kott


Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Roger Parry <uncleroger@...>
 

Did not NWSL offer a flywheel chassis that could be used with an Athern box car to simulate train momentum?

On Aug 26, 2005, at 12:27 PM, Tom Jones III wrote:

My thoughts were motorized momentum in the cars, or flywheel driven momentum
in the cars. DCC is too much for individual cars when it is possible to
simply (yeah, right!) have the car sense its own speed and through a
computer program onboard the car control the momentum motor that drives the
wheels, or provides resistance. A flywheel may be a lot easier, not sure
about cheaper. It would provide a sort of brake when stopped, but it
certainly would push the train along when moving!

Tom Jones III

----- Original Message -----
Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It
(snip)
Then after accomplishing this you run into the problem of how our layouts
aren't actual scale
models, in fact most don't even approach being scale. Most are so
drastically foreshortened that a
1:1 freight car's dynamics when scaled down acting under the forces of
momentum would roll much
farther than most of our sidings and yards are long. A freight taking a
mile to stop would take how
many dozen laps of most of our layouts to achieve that? That's if you
don't have a point to point,
in that case it just goes over the edge because the world is flat. Here
there be dragons and they
find model railroad equipment to be tasty. That's why it keeps
disappearing off the edge of the
layout, never to be seen again. :-)

The more you try to mimic the prototype the more you end up demonstrating
the reality that our
models are basically toys, well, expensive toys.




Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Kodak - Slightly Off Topic...but Only Slightly.

Paul Hillman
 

Yeah, not quite sure what the current, real quality of digital is, (short of a $3,000.00 digital camera, etc.), but it looks like the "old" print system is definitely on the way out. I used to develop my own film and prints a few years back. I still have a 35mm SLR and love it.

But, I have another film OT question; what's the best way to separate print-film pictures that are stuck together?

Paul Hillman

----- Original Message -----
From: Beckert, Shawn<mailto:shawn.beckert@disney.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 2:26 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Kodak - Slightly Off Topic...but Only Slightly.


Guys,

This article is taken from USA Today. You might want to take a look:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2005-08-25-kodak-cuts_x.htm<http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2005-08-25-kodak-cuts_x.htm>

The freight car connection should be obvious. If things keep going the way they
are, there might not *be* a Bob's Photo in a few years. Or John C. LaRue, or Jay
Williams. etc. Not to be Chicken Little (hey, there's an idea for a movie), but
it looks like we better start buying photographs like crazy or we find someone
who still makes printing paper (and chemicals) and work out a deal.

At some point we'll be forced to accept digitally printed photos. I already have
some, and I'm just not impressed.Unless the quality of digital printing improves
drastically (and who knows, maybe it will), I think we're in for a dry spell as
far as this facet of our hobby goes.

This is not meant to stir a debate (which will get Mike upset), but I think people
here should be aware of what's coming. Not a pretty picture - no pun intended.

Shawn Beckert





Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Kodak - Slightly Off Topic...but Only Slightly.

Adam Maas <mykroft@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:
Guys,
This article is taken from USA Today. You might want to take a look:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2005-08-25-kodak-cuts_x.htm
The freight car connection should be obvious. If things keep going the way they
are, there might not *be* a Bob's Photo in a few years. Or John C. LaRue, or Jay
Williams. etc. Not to be Chicken Little (hey, there's an idea for a movie), but
it looks like we better start buying photographs like crazy or we find someone who still makes printing paper (and chemicals) and work out a deal.
At some point we'll be forced to accept digitally printed photos. I already have some, and I'm just not impressed.Unless the quality of digital printing improves drastically (and who knows, maybe it will), I think we're in for a dry spell as
far as this facet of our hobby goes.
This is not meant to stir a debate (which will get Mike upset), but I think people here should be aware of what's coming. Not a pretty picture - no pun intended.
Shawn Beckert
If you're getting your photos printed at a minilab, you're already getting digital prints. All the modern minilabs scan the negs and then print digitally to photo paper. This side of the business is not declining much, but kodak isn't as big a player as it used to be, with Fuji leading and Noritsu and Agfa also playing. The major change here is simply in volume, most folks now come in and print 75+ digital shots rather than a roll at a time.

Film however is dead from a mainstream perspective. It will be the domain of the artist and purist within a coupel of years (From a new sales perspective, film cameras essentially died in 2004, the P&S market is gone and the SLR market is dying).

-Adam


Kodak - Slightly Off Topic...but Only Slightly.

Shawn Beckert
 

Guys,

This article is taken from USA Today. You might want to take a look:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2005-08-25-kodak-cuts_x.htm

The freight car connection should be obvious. If things keep going the way they
are, there might not *be* a Bob's Photo in a few years. Or John C. LaRue, or Jay
Williams. etc. Not to be Chicken Little (hey, there's an idea for a movie), but
it looks like we better start buying photographs like crazy or we find someone
who still makes printing paper (and chemicals) and work out a deal.

At some point we'll be forced to accept digitally printed photos. I already have
some, and I'm just not impressed.Unless the quality of digital printing improves
drastically (and who knows, maybe it will), I think we're in for a dry spell as
far as this facet of our hobby goes.

This is not meant to stir a debate (which will get Mike upset), but I think people
here should be aware of what's coming. Not a pretty picture - no pun intended.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Kaslo double dutch drop

Paul Hillman
 

I can just imagine the stories from the steep-incline, multiple-
grade, multiple switch-back logging railroads, about these "Double-
Dutch-Drops", IE);

"Yeah, one day we tried a triple, double-Dutch-drop with a string of
10 fully-loaded log-cars and killed 20 men. Everything was OK until
old "cross-eyed Bob" the switchman couldn't tell which way the train
was goin' and switched her into the company mess-hall siding. Took
us a week to find the beer-cooler again."

Paul Hillman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, PBowers <waiting@s...> wrote:
Canadian Pacific had an interesting "double dutch drop??" in Kaslo
and
probably one of the longest movements of tat type. The inbound
train left
the van on the mainline with brake on as it was an approx 2%
grade. The
loco and train pulled over the switch, reversed direction and then
went
down another approx 2% grade to the dock. Once the train was
clear, the
van brake was released and it rolled to the opposite end of the
yard which
was on a almost 5% grade. The van reversed direction and returned
back to
the switch down to the dock where the brakeman, after changing the
switch
to the dock track reboarded and rode the van down the grade
coasting to a
stop near the rest of the train. The length of track travelled
was about a
half mile.

Peter Bowers


Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Doug Brown <brown194@...>
 

Non-roller bearings were labor intensive with the checking and adding of
lubrication. With higher labor rates and lower parts cost, the
break-even point favored roller bearings. Roller bearings also helped
eliminate hotbox failures.

Doug Brown

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
behillman
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 8:44 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Tony Thompson wrote;

Looking into roller bearing history, Timken was selling roller
bearings for horse-drawn equipment in 1893. Their bearings were
incorporated into automobiles quite early, and into machine tools
before World War I. (Timken began to call their product an
"anti-friction" bearing around 1910.) It is an indication of the
conservatism of railroad mechanical people that railroad
applications came as late as they did.
***************************************************************

Response,

In the 1903 book, "Railroad Construction-Theory & Practice", which I
afore referred to, concerning at that time the application of roller-
journals to freight cars;

" But the advantages (of roller-journals) disappear as the velocity
increases. The advantages also decrease as the load is increased, so
that with heavily loaded cars the gain is small. The excess of cost
for construction and maintenance has been found to be more than the
gain from power saved."

Their thoughts in 1903 were apparently more along the lines of
better lubrication of "solid-bearings";

" The resistance could probably be materially lowered (in 'ordinary -
journals') if some practicable form of journal-box could be devised
which would give a more perfect lubrication."

Something happened in later years for the ultimate conversion to
roller-journals, probably a significant reduction in costs in
applying them to 100's of thousands of freight-cars?? (It's ALWAYS
about the "money".)

Paul Hillman










Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Bob's photos

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Thomas M. Olsen wrote:

Springfield may have a waiting list of vendors, but they when they
finally select a vendor to fill a spot, apparently they won't guarantee
the table space until the vendor arrives to set up. Martin Lofton has
been asked to attend as a vendor a number of times . . .
And Westerfield has told us he went once and isn't going again. So Springfield isn't exactly presenting "all the big resin producers."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: dutch drop

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>
 

This is a "drop". The "Dutch Drop" has the loco speed ahead, throw a switch,
then loco REVERSES and goes hidey-hole into the spur, switch thrown again,
and car rolls past. Its that reversing that gets interesting! Nothing like
having your locomotive heading back toward a rolling car to get your
attention.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

My impression of the Dutch Drop was that, to get a car into a facing
point spur, the engine sped up and then the car to be dropped was
uncoupled. then the engine sped up even more and as it passed the
switch the points were thrown and the car rolled into the spur.
Getting the engine far enough ahead of the car to stop, back into a
trailing point spur (assuming there was one handy) and throw the
switch back would seem impossible, as well as even more dangerous, to
do.
Bill Williams


Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>
 

My thoughts were motorized momentum in the cars, or flywheel driven momentum
in the cars. DCC is too much for individual cars when it is possible to
simply (yeah, right!) have the car sense its own speed and through a
computer program onboard the car control the momentum motor that drives the
wheels, or provides resistance. A flywheel may be a lot easier, not sure
about cheaper. It would provide a sort of brake when stopped, but it
certainly would push the train along when moving!

Tom Jones III

----- Original Message -----
Re: Scale Weights - Doubt It
(snip)
Then after accomplishing this you run into the problem of how our layouts
aren't actual scale
models, in fact most don't even approach being scale. Most are so
drastically foreshortened that a
1:1 freight car's dynamics when scaled down acting under the forces of
momentum would roll much
farther than most of our sidings and yards are long. A freight taking a
mile to stop would take how
many dozen laps of most of our layouts to achieve that? That's if you
don't have a point to point,
in that case it just goes over the edge because the world is flat. Here
there be dragons and they
find model railroad equipment to be tasty. That's why it keeps
disappearing off the edge of the
layout, never to be seen again. :-)

The more you try to mimic the prototype the more you end up demonstrating
the reality that our
models are basically toys, well, expensive toys.


Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>
 

More like the application of fuel prices and safety issues (i.e., liability
claims) that moved railroads to roller bearings.

Fuel at the time that article was written (1903) was virtually a zero cost
item for many railroads, so starting a heavy train and keeping it going with
the attendant friction from solid bearings, and the additional fuel expense
was not a biggie. For some railroads, simply taking the coal from one of
their own mines and moving it to the coaling towers was the sole additional
expense. Modernly, its too bad you can't burn coal in Diesels . . . shipping
by train would be much cheaper!

Additionally, solid bearings have a cute propensity of overheating when
poorly lubed and catching the train on fire, or at least melting off the
axle end once in a while. Roller bearings also fail from lack of
maintenance, but they don't require an inspection at every stop, oiling on a
regular basis, people to go out and fill the waste and oil box on the
journals, piles of cotton waste and gallons of spilled oil everywhere with
the EPA looking over your shoulder, and on and on and on. Finally, spun off
axle ends still happen, but not nearly as frequently as with solid bearings.

The final straw was that the cost of copper and other metals used to cast
solid bearing brass (actually a form of bronze) became higher and higher
while the cost of machined steel got lower and lower. There was simply no
longer an economic reason to go for the less safe, higher friction,
relatively higher cost solid bearings.

So, you are right - its ALWAYS the money!

Tom Jones III

----- Original Message -----
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals


(snip)

Something happened in later years for the ultimate conversion to
roller-journals, probably a significant reduction in costs in
applying them to 100's of thousands of freight-cars?? (It's ALWAYS
about the "money".)

Paul Hillman


Re: Kaslo double dutch drop

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

Canadian Pacific had an interesting "double dutch drop??" in Kaslo and probably one of the longest movements of tat type. The inbound train left the van on the mainline with brake on as it was an approx 2% grade. The loco and train pulled over the switch, reversed direction and then went down another approx 2% grade to the dock. Once the train was clear, the van brake was released and it rolled to the opposite end of the yard which was on a almost 5% grade. The van reversed direction and returned back to the switch down to the dock where the brakeman, after changing the switch to the dock track reboarded and rode the van down the grade coasting to a stop near the rest of the train. The length of track travelled was about a half mile.

Peter Bowers


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rivet counters gathering in N. Virginia Sat, Aug 27

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

Just a note to let people know that they can call me at home today,
Friday, if they have any questions about the informal gathering I am
hosting tomorrow at the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of
Fairfax, 2709 Hunter Mill Road, in Oakton, VA. Go to www.uucf.org for
a map. My number is 703.242.7973. I won't be seeing email after I
send this.

We are the second exit on I-66 past the National Capital Beltway
heading west. Take the fork that says Vienna-Oakton and at the third
light turn left onto Hunter Mill Road and go about .8 of a mile. We
are on the right just past the Church of Later Day Saints or Mormon
Church.

Walking in from the parking lot, we will be in the building to your
left. I am going to try to put a few signs up and I will be keeping
an eye out. Bring models, books you think people are interested in,
etc. Remember to bring your lunch or money to get something nearby.
People will start showing u about 9 AM and we will wind up around 3
PM or so. A couple of presentations are planned that I know of, and
we will have a lot of time to get acquainted.

See you tomorrow!

Bill Welch


Re: Solid, Roller & Friction Bearing Journals

Paul Hillman
 

Tony Thompson wrote;

Looking into roller bearing history, Timken was selling roller
bearings for horse-drawn equipment in 1893. Their bearings were
incorporated into automobiles quite early, and into machine tools
before World War I. (Timken began to call their product an
"anti-friction" bearing around 1910.) It is an indication of the
conservatism of railroad mechanical people that railroad
applications came as late as they did.
***************************************************************

Response,

In the 1903 book, "Railroad Construction-Theory & Practice", which I
afore referred to, concerning at that time the application of roller-
journals to freight cars;

" But the advantages (of roller-journals) disappear as the velocity
increases. The advantages also decrease as the load is increased, so
that with heavily loaded cars the gain is small. The excess of cost
for construction and maintenance has been found to be more than the
gain from power saved."

Their thoughts in 1903 were apparently more along the lines of
better lubrication of "solid-bearings";

" The resistance could probably be materially lowered (in 'ordinary -
journals') if some practicable form of journal-box could be devised
which would give a more perfect lubrication."

Something happened in later years for the ultimate conversion to
roller-journals, probably a significant reduction in costs in
applying them to 100's of thousands of freight-cars?? (It's ALWAYS
about the "money".)

Paul Hillman


Re: dutch drop

Tom Jones III <tomtherailnut@...>
 

The Dutch drop is not inherently unsafe, just a bit trickier than a simple
drop or a kick. The trick is to keep the moving dropped car's velocity low,
or perhaps have a slight grade to assist and simply let gravity move the
car. Putting a brakeman on the car to help control speed (or stop the car in
case of emergency) can help. All this can be achieved with a car with
sufficient mass that it has high inertia, as most prototype cars have.
Except for the run in I described in a much earlier post, I think the most
embarassing I have actually seen in a Dutch drop situation was when the
dropped car had only enough energy to drive it to the center of the switch -
trapping the locomotive on the spur and the car spanning the points, no
poling pole. Whoops. The crew ended up pushing the offending car out of the
way with a Jeep from a nearby grain elevator.

Tom Jones

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [STMFC] dutch drop


Snip) The fact that the move is obviously dangerous and can go
wrong, does NOT mean it went wrong all the time.


Re: ADMIN: Weather= Not

Paul Hillman
 

Mike Brock wrote;

"I will also add that weather and climate...unless closely associated with
frt cars...is out of scope."

************************************************************
Mike,

That's really interesting, because I was just NOW reading from my 1903 book, "Railroad Construction-Theory & Practice", Prof. Walter L. Webb, C.E. ;

Chapter XVI, 'Train resistance', ( b ) Journal friction of the axles;

(4) "It is observed that freight-train loads must be cut down in winter by about 10 to 15% of the loads that the same engine can haul over the same track in summer. This is due partly to the extra roughness and inelasticity of the track in winter, and partly to increased radiation from the engine wasting some energy, but this will not account for all of the loss, and the effect, which is probably due largely to the lower temperature of the journal-boxes, is very marked and costly. It has been suggested that a jacketing of the journal-boxes, which would prevent rapid radiation of heat and enable them to retain some of the heat developed by friction, would result in a saving amply repaying the cost of the device."

Thus, in Cocoa Beach in January, longer, heavier trains can be run than in Chicago, etc.. Now you can prototypically factor that into the reasons for your meet.

Paul Hillman


Re: Steve Solombrino ( was The Springfield Show)

Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"I don't need to point this out to most of you, but not ALL of the
best modelers in the country are into the "RPM scene". There are many
fabulous models on display at Springfield (as there are at regional
shows and meets all over the country). One of my favorite displays
at Springfield is the Pfaudler tables, where superb, scratchbuilt
models of milk trains are on display. And way back in 1989 before
I even knew my A end from a B end, I was awestruck by a Prototype
Modelers' display led by Steve Solombrino, a great modeler who to
my knowledge has never attended a single RPM meet. RPM meets only
attract 1% or less of model railroaders -- you can be sure you are
missing out on a lot of great modeling if that's all you do."

Tim, point well taken; however, in 1989, Steve Solombrino was a fixture at
RPM meets (back in the day of the old paper RPM newsletters). If you go
back to Schleicher's coverage of the meets in MRG and RMJ from the late
1980s, you'll see his models.


Ben Hom


Re: dutch drop

Richard White
 

Chet French said:

"A "Dutch drop" is when the engine changes directions to get in the clear,
during the move. Usually the dutch drop was made where gravity would lend a
helping hand with a slight grade. Often the brakes could be released on a
car or cars, and they would roll by the engine, unassisted. We generally
would give the cars an easy kick uphill, put the engine in the clear, and
wait for the cars to stop and roll back downhill past the engine."

It occurs to me that with a steam locomotice this move would be very tricky
unless there was a gradient to help as Chet says and even more so if the
locomotive was not fitted with a lever reverser as a screw reverser or most
of the steam reversers that I have seen in use would take too long to change
from forward to reverse gear. With a lever reverser it's quick to change
direction. For this reason, most UK steam shunting (=switching) locomotives
were fitted with a lever reverse.

Richard White




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