Date   

Re: CG ventilated boxcar & pattern making

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Brian Chapman wrote:

Fascinating information, and I thank you much for providing it. I
don't know how much longer you're willing to discuss this, but I have
a few more comments and questions, if you're willing.
Expertise is a relative thing. I've been trying to present the
technology, as it were, but delving further into software nuances and
what one needs for driving various RP equipment is out of my range.
This is industrial equipment and I didn't intend to convey the idea
that it was on its way to your workshop. It's just a different way of
creating patterns for resin casting, and the cost is very reasonable
_if_ you think a pattern maker should be paid for his time. What Jim,
Chuck and I have posted is probably enough for now.

Tom Madden


Re: LV flats was War production board

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Scott Chatfield wrote:
I shot one of these some years ago. I'd have to look up the slide, but I'm guessing 1989 in Pennsylvania.
Yes, but was it badly hurt? <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

D. Scott Chatfield
 

Now that Broadway has released their GACX 53'6" express reefer, why should we care? Is it a different prototype than the Walthers model? They look almost identical. The Broadway version costs a couple dollars more.

Scott C


Re: LV flats was War production board

D. Scott Chatfield
 

.....the only [other] taker of Pennsy F30A design flat cars was the
Lehigh Valley (50 cars).

I shot one of these some years ago. I'd have to look up the slide, but I'm guessing 1989 in Pennsylvania.

Scott Chatfield


Re: Mystery Auto Car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 15, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Justin Kahn wrote:

Here's one for the resident experts: among a large quantity of model
drawings and instructions sheets that just arrived is what appears to be a
genuine sheet from a prototype diagram book, but without identifying road.
The collection comes from California, which may (or may not) be relevant.
50 Ton Auto #86000-86149, 50' 6" single-sheathed autocar with fishbelly
steel underframe, built by Mt Vernon 1929, Dreadnaught ends, Youngstown
doors. The last notation on the sheet is 12-46.
Missouri Pacific.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Bob Webber wrote:

...[T]he more germane point to this list .... is war board
requirements relative
to new designs and non-strategic materials and such.

It would seem likely that there would be analogous cases of
freight
cars that are close cousins (we know of the mill gons and the 40's
gons as two examples). The 40 foot cars have been done last year
by
Sunshine. Are there then other cars that would make sense from a
manufacturer point of view...?
Bob is apparently unaware that the AAR Car Construction Committee
took
on the project, just before the US entered WW II, of designating
"recommended practice" freight car designs which represented the
best
current car building practice and had already been built, so that
they
could be quickly ordered into production to meet wartime freight
car
shortages without additional design/tooling. These designs,
adopted in
October, 1941, were all shown in both drawings and photos in the
1943
and 1946 Car Builders' Cyclopedias. They included a 41'6" 50 ton
solid
bottom gondola (built by Bethlehem for the Atlantic Coast Line), a
41'
50 ton drop bottom GS gondola (built by GATC for the Illinois
Central),
a 52'6" 70 ton drop end mill gondola (built by Bethlehem for the
Lehigh
Valley), a 65'6" 70 ton drop end mill gondola (built by GATC for
the
Santa Fe), a 53'6" 50 ton riveted flat car (built by Pullman-
Standard
for the Union Pacific), a 53'6" 70 ton riveted flat car (built by
Greenville for the Erie), and a 50' 70 ton flat car with one piece
cast
steel underframe (the Pennsylvania RR class F30A). No box cars or
hopper cars were designated because AAR standard designs already
existed for these car types.

Within months, the AAR standard and recommended practice designs
were
reworked to employ wood instead of sheet steel for side sheathing,
slope sheets, floor stringers, etc. and became the composite "war
emergency" designs that were built in limited numbers during World
War II. ,snip>

Richard,

Oops. The last paragraph above caused me to reason that perhaps the
Wabash composite gons built in 1944, were the above designs reworked
with wood sides and floors. The 50 ton 41'-6" 13500-14849 series
steel gondolas built by Decatur from 1944 to 1946 were probably
closer to the design of the ACL gons. The Wabash 10 panel gon is
available from Sunshine.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Mystery Auto Car

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Justin Kahn wrote:
Here's one for the resident experts: among a large quantity of model
drawings and instructions sheets that just arrived is what appears to be a
genuine sheet from a prototype diagram book, but without identifying road.
The collection comes from California, which may (or may not) be relevant.
50 Ton Auto #86000-86149, 50' 6" single-sheathed autocar with fishbelly
steel underframe, built by Mt Vernon 1929, Dreadnaught ends, Youngstown
doors. The last notation on the sheet is 12-46.
I don't know what it is, Justin, but it isn't SP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Webber said:
. . . Bob [LeMassena]
has explained the problem, bad boiler metals caused some premature
boiler issues that caused some boiler mishaps and they figured they'd
retire them rather than reboiler them."
Yes. I did a bit of research and noted the same thing. Interestingly, NP
encountered the same thing and they did reboiler.
While we are on "metallurgy," I will comment briefly that the steels chosen in order to go to thinner boiler shells (thus saving weight on these big locos) yet keep high boiler pressures turned out to be unsuitable. It was not "bad metal" but a poor choice by the builders, who chose the alloys used. They turned out to be sensitive to stress-corrosion cracking under the temperatures and water chemistries used. Had this not happened at the very end of steam, it would surely have been corrected (there are far better alloys to use), but of course this was not to be.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompson@...


Re: AAR Rec. Practice 40' Gondolas

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 15, 2005, at 7:24 PM, George Courtney wrote:

Richard, or others,
Besides the ACL which other roads ordered copies or near copies of
this gondola?
I don't have a complete list, as many of them were built after the era I model, but I know that C&NW/CMO and GM&O both had them (photos in the 1946 Car Builders' Cyclopedia). Others on the list who model the '50s can probably add some others.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: detail of AAR 1937 boxcar kit

Tim O'Connor
 

Speaking of which, has anyone seen a good roof shot of C&O 4500-4999?
Larry Smith said they had Murphy roofs, not Vikings, but I've never
seen proof either way.

My copy of C&O's 1960 Freight Car Diagrams notes that these cars had
"Hutchins Dry Lading 15 Ga." roofs, Youngstown doors, Dreadnaught ends, Ajax
brake wheel and wood running board.

Regards --
Steve Busch
Steve, what kind of roof is that? Like the C&O 7000-series cars had?


Re: ADMIN: Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Roy Bean says:


Ok, Mike, time to reign you in! You are way off topic with this
steam locomotive stuff! You are hereby sentenced to go re-read your
own list rules.
Well, you know what happened to Roy Bean. Hmmm. Wonder what DID happen to him? Anyhow, note that I said:

"Brief sorties "out of scope" are going to be allowed on
the subject of steam locomotives...the basis for deriving our time period."

True, this topic would be more at home on the Steam Loco Group but...uh...if we can talk about statistics on the STMFC, I guess we can talk about steam locos. However...donning my judge's cloak, both will be temporary.

A significant value, BTW, of confining our messages to frt cars is the rather large volume of messages we are now seeing.

Mike Brock


ADMIN: Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Tim O'Connor
 

Ok, Mike, time to reign you in! You are way off topic with this
steam locomotive stuff! You are hereby sentenced to go re-read your
own list rules.

Tim "Roy Bean" O'Connor

BTW, it is noteworthy that the War Production Board did not say that the
D&RGW design was not worthy but, rather, simply said that they should use
the UP designed engines which were actually built for UP. They apparently
concluded that D&RGW had a larger need for them than UP. I am curious,
incidentally, about the D&RGW engines and their capabilities. Similarly
larger NP Challengers did not produce the performance expected because the
front end nozzles were relatively smaller in order to keep a strong draft
from blowing the dirt-like Redbud NP coal off the grates and up the stack.
The result was relatively high back pressures. The sorce of fuel did matter.

Mike Brock


Re: SP Gothic Lettering

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Brian J Carlson wrote:
I was looking at some Red Caboose kits and came across an 37 AAR car with
the SP B&W circular herald on the right side and Gothic "Southern Pacific"
on the left above the reporting marks. When did the SP go to this paint job
and how common was it?
This paint scheme was introduced in the summer of 1955 and the following year, with a renumbering of the entire SP freight car fleet underway, a very great number of repaints was done, far more than you would expect from a scheme change alone. The circular emblem lasted until 1957, when it was discontinued. By that time, an awful lot of cars had already gotten the sans-serif (sometimes called "Gothic") lettering.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bob Webber writes:

You are of course right in that the D&RGW wanted diesels as any
western road did - for any number of reasons, but the D&RGW wanted
them (as much as for all other reasons) because they needed the
service in the Utah desert where they had a problem similar in nature
to that of the ATSF in the Southwest in terms of water quality (among
other things). This water quality, did in fact mean a lot of steam
era tank cars were pressed into service as water tanks to extend the
good water distances for locomotives
Yes...I was aware of that and should have mentioned it.

"The 3700's were retired early as modern locomotives go for
the same reason that the 1800's were - and as Chuck can tell you, Bob
has explained the problem, bad boiler metals caused some premature
boiler issues that caused some boiler mishaps and they figured they'd
retire them rather than reboiler them."
Yes. I did a bit of research and noted the same thing. Interestingly, NP encountered the same thing and they did reboiler.

" I *DID* mention that the
D&RGW was less than happy with the UP design due to the service as
much as anything else."
Yep. I noted that.

BTW, it is noteworthy that the War Production Board did not say that the D&RGW design was not worthy but, rather, simply said that they should use the UP designed engines which were actually built for UP. They apparently concluded that D&RGW had a larger need for them than UP. I am curious, incidentally, about the D&RGW engines and their capabilities. Similarly larger NP Challengers did not produce the performance expected because the front end nozzles were relatively smaller in order to keep a strong draft from blowing the dirt-like Redbud NP coal off the grates and up the stack. The result was relatively high back pressures. The sorce of fuel did matter.

Mike Brock


Re: LV flats was War production board

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 15, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

Richard said:
On the other hand, the only taker of Pennsy F30A design flat cars was the
Lehigh Valley (50 cars).
Wow, I never new the LV had F30A's does anyone know where I can find
pictures of this class. Is this 50 car series 10,000-10,049?
Yes, it is, built in 1950. I have two photos of these cars but both of such poor quality that I won't offer to scan them.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 15, 2005, at 7:48 PM, Chet French wrote:

The Wabash built 250 of the 41'-6" gons at the Decatur car shop in
1944. Car had wood sides and floors, and were numbered in the 13000-
13249 series. Andrews and ARA/AAR cast sideframe trucks, from older
gondolas being scrapped, were used on the cars. Some were equipped
with auto frame racks in the late 1940's. The T&NO also had some of
these cars also. F&C has this car in their kit line.
All true, Chet, and who should know better. However, the Wabash cars you're describing were war emergency composite gons, not the all steel "recommended practice" cars as built for the ACL by Bethlehem.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Typical small roster for New England, circa 1952

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:


Sorry Prof, but the standard deviation is an OBSERVED FACT and not
a fixed mathematical notion. It is a measure of dispersion of the
data in the samples.
In the model example, if you only have three NP box cars out of a set
of 100, and your trains are all 33 cars long, then you cannot experience
the REAL WORLD possibility of trains having 33 NP box cars (or 32, or 31,
etc). Moreover, the probability that your 33 car trains will have at
least one NP box car in them is much higher than it is on the prototype!
(See Einstein, Same Birthdays Probability Among 50 Strangers.)
It is as I stated, the Variance (the term I prefer) of the prototype is
greater than the Variance of the model. (Variance simply being the square
of the Standard Deviation.)
The MEAN number of NP box cars in the 33 car trains is 1, in both the
model and prototype.
Personally I prefer my Fifth Rule....or is it the Sixth?

Mike Brock


Re: Chalk Marks

Richard Dick
 

Thanks, Bruce. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Richard Dick

Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Sep 14, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Richard Dick wrote:

I know that Sunshine Models sells chalk mark decals (perhaps others
do, too). Is there any information available as to what the marks
mean, when/how they were used, etc? Or does one just apply what
looks good?!
Richard,

By and large, chalk marks from the steam era are indecipherable to us
now. Many are private codes used by train crews to themselves as to
where to spot a car. Others are codes used among crews to indicate
something about a car. Some of the obvious ones might include "OK"
or a check mark chalked over a truck to indicate a bearing that had
been checked and "MT" for empty. In general, I try to pick random
marks and then place them as I have seen them placed in photos...
usually on the left end of the car near the number, near or on the
door, and sometimes on the right end over the trucks. In one
particular Sunshine sheet there was a "POT". Beats me what that was
supposed to have been, but I couldn't resist putting it on a Southern
Autocar, indicating that it had either been through or was heading to
Potomac Yard... which is how it got on my section of the PRR <G>.


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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Re: detail of AAR 1937 boxcar kit

S. Busch <SCSBusch@...>
 

Tim O'Connor asked:

Speaking of which, has anyone seen a good roof shot of C&O 4500-4999?
Larry Smith said they had Murphy roofs, not Vikings, but I've never
seen proof either way.

My copy of C&O's 1960 Freight Car Diagrams notes that these cars had "Hutchins Dry Lading 15 Ga." roofs, Youngstown doors, Dreadnaught ends, Ajax brake wheel and wood running board.

Regards --
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


Re: LV flats was War production board

Greg Martin
 

Brian writes:

"Richard said:
On the other hand, the only taker of Pennsy F30A design flat cars was the
Lehigh Valley (50 cars).
Wow, I never new the LV had F30A's does anyone know where I can find
pictures of this class. Is this 50 car series 10,000-10,049?

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY"

Ah Ha!

But the N&W did adopt the Pennsy F30d (the welded version) of the car and I
have some photos of these. They are nearly indistinguishable from the cast
version of the car. They were produced in the early 1950's. The Bowser kit can
be utilized for these.

Greg Martin

151661 - 151680 of 197031