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Re: pattern making

Charlie Vlk
 

This is an interesting thread and, since it does bear on the possibilities
of bringing production and semi-production freight cars to market, I think
fairly relevant to this list.
A group of us have been working with Mark4 Designs (Mark Gasson). He is a
New Zealander who has just relocated home after retiring early from a career
with BP in the US and other places in the world. He has invested in a rapid
prototyping machine called a prefactory. It is capable of doing objects in
acrylic plastic. The machine is not as expensive as the ones quoted
previously in this thread but is far from the reach of casual hobbyists.
Right now because of the cost of amortizing the machine and the build time,
the highest and best use of this machine is in the creation of masters for
resin casting. Material costs are not so severe as to eliminate the
possibility of some parts being offered directly out of the machine... Mark4
sells replacement hoods, cabs, and noses to modify Atlas and other brand
locomotives.
We have not arrived at any final pieces yet (mainly due to Mark's
relocation) but are working on a N Scale Baldwin Centercab Transfer
locomotive, steel mill bottle cars, and a CB&Q SM16 stockcar. The test
shots have been outstanding and promise to be excellent pieces once final
parts are completed.
The resolution of the process is entirely sufficient for Model Railroad
purposes. Z Scale rivets are very crisp and correctly shaped. The "stair
stepping" of early stereolithography parts is not present... there is very
little evidence of the layers that the part is built up from and most of it
can be eliminated by building the part in the correct orientation. The
material is a light-cured acrylic plastic which has very good hardness and
other characterisics.
The prefactory is in many ways a magic machine. Any object that can be
drawn in a 3d program (Solidworks is one, Rhino is another) can be processed
into a solid object in any scale from Z to G (there are some size
limitations in the build area of currently available machines which tend to
favor Z, N and HO rolling stock and smaller detail parts only for larger
scales).
The advantage over hand building masters is not great in terms of time for
the first part. Railroad cars tend to be highly modular and use standard
assemblies and parts. The real advantage to the process comes to the fore
when you begin to assemble libraries of parts and can build variations of
previously rendered objects with literally a couple of keystrokes instead of
cutting apart previous submasters to hand build new versions.
The company that is offering the kitOmat design program for custom lasercut
buildings has, as far as I can determine, a rather simplistic program for
very basic building shapes. Design of laser cut parts is not a very
difficult process and it seems to me that laser cut wood is not an ideal
medium for freight cars (or even cabooses and other non-revenue or passenger
equipment) given that the process only can yield wood sides and windows and
doors and flat roof parts. Rapid prototyping can give you all the parts
necessary for any car with the exception of the wheel pairs and the couplers
of choice.
Rapid prototyping will come down in price to the point it will be within the
reach of casual manufacturers. The learning curve to know how to draw
objects in 3D that are usuable and the tricks necessary to get usable
finished parts out of the machine is not inconsequential.... and, depending
on the amortization period selected, the hourly cost of the machine is very
substantial.
There may be processes to use the output of a prefactory, either directly
using different mediums or indirectly using the prefactory to make mold
inserts and/or as an intermediate step in emerging technologies to get to
hard tooling. This opens up the possibility of many short production cars
that are limited to resin copies of hand built masters today.
We are living in the Golden Age of Model Railroading today, but even better
things are on the horizion for tomorrow!!
Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


Re: pattern making

Charles Hladik
 

Mike,
I had Chris Jesse, owner of King Mill, make me a Deck for a SN3 PBL flat
adn had him bore 168 holes so I could put Tichy rivets in to simulate
carriage bolts. Very nice.He claims that he can do 25 for about $4.00 each. I don't
remember his web site but I'll see him Saturday morning at the NMRA MER
James River Division meeting in Charllottesville Virginia.
Chuck Hladik


Re: pattern making

jaley <jaley@...>
 

Mike,

I've seen the company's website, and I was very disappointed.
They require you to use their proprietary software, which is VERY
restrictive, and they will only cut wood.
Their software only supports certain designs of windows and doors
(for structures), and that's it.

I do not see any benefit to STMFC modeling from that company
(their name escapes me, too!)

Regards,

-Jeff

On Sep 16, 11:49am, Mike Aufderheide wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] pattern making
I visited a freind last night that had attended the
Cinci NMRA convention. He saw a company that was
planning to sell software soon which would design CAD
patterns to do laser cutting. The modeler will use
the software to design the pattern for the laser cut
object at his home, e-mail that CAD file to the
company, and the company will send the laser cut
object to the customer. This was being developed with
strutures in mind, but I'd imagine there would be some
freight car possiblities.

Did anyone else see this?

What materials can be cut like this?

Is this any use for making resin patterns?

Regards,

Mike
--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: NP 83750-83999 stock cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Thomas Olsen asked:
"The other question here is whether Ben Hom ever got his car order from
Aaron from two years ago? Ben was the last one waiting for Aaron to
send him his car."

I did, back in July. (Thought I cc:ed everyone about it.)


Ben Hom


Al Kresse Contact Info (Re: detail of AAR 1937 boxcar kit)

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rich Yoder asked:
"Does anyone know how to get in touch with Al Kresse?"

The latest C&O Historical Magazine lists Al's contact info as:

Al Kresse
8664 Gates
Romeo MI 48065-4365
water.kresse@...

BTW, the July/August issue has two articles of interest for list
subscribers:

"Moving the Packages (LCL on the C&O)" by Charles W. Bohi

"C&O" 9500-9999 Steel-Sheathed Automobile Box Cars" by Al Kresse


Ben Hom


Re: pattern making

Michael Aufderheide
 

I visited a freind last night that had attended the
Cinci NMRA convention. He saw a company that was
planning to sell software soon which would design CAD
patterns to do laser cutting. The modeler will use
the software to design the pattern for the laser cut
object at his home, e-mail that CAD file to the
company, and the company will send the laser cut
object to the customer. This was being developed with
strutures in mind, but I'd imagine there would be some
freight car possiblities.

Did anyone else see this?

What materials can be cut like this?

Is this any use for making resin patterns?

Regards,

Mike

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Re: Autocar ID

Justin Kahn
 

Thanks to both Tony and Richard (the two resident experts did each take a swing at it). I wondered about SP, as they did have singlesheathed 50' door-and-a-half cars in several varieties, but if Tony says no, I can't imagine anyone better informed on SP freight cars. Now, I wonder how the MP diagram got in this collection, but after all these years I doubt I shall ever learn.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.



Here's one for the resident experts: among a large quantity of model
drawings and instructions sheets that just arrived is what appears to
be a
genuine sheet from a prototype diagram book, but without identifying
road.
The collection comes from California, which may (or may not) be
relevant.
50 Ton Auto #86000-86149, 50' 6" single-sheathed autocar with fishbelly
steel underframe, built by Mt Vernon 1929, Dreadnaught ends, Youngstown
doors. The last notation on the sheet is 12-46.
I don't know what it is, Justin, but it isn't SP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Subject: Re: Mystery Auto Car

On Sep 15, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Justin Kahn wrote:

Missouri Pacific.

Richard Hendrickson
_________________________________________________________________
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Re: NP 83750-83999 stock cars

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

The other question here is whether Ben Hom ever got his car order from Aaron from two years ago? Ben was the last one waiting for Aaron to send him his car.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


joe binish wrote:

Getting back to actual freight cars...

Has anyone seen any photos of the NP stock car as produced by Aaron in ND?
I have a second series kit(nice moldings Tom), and would like to pick a
different # than the prototype photo in the instructions.
TIA,
Joe Binish





Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: pattern making

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I'm not interested in that stuff -- what I'd like is a 1950's SP TOFC train, and
no one is going to produce SP Clejans (two styles) and SP F-70-10 flat cars in
plastic, plus the trailers... And I'd really like SP G-50-25's (I think that is the
correct class), which was the gondola used for Kaiser ore before the delivery
of the 100 ton cars.
Challenging goals, but interesting. And you're very, very close, Tim: I might even give you an A- on it: it was actually G-50-26. BTW, there are also photos of 1920s GS gons in the Kaiser trains.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


NP 83750-83999 stock cars

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Getting back to actual freight cars...

Has anyone seen any photos of the NP stock car as produced by Aaron in ND?
I have a second series kit(nice moldings Tom), and would like to pick a
different # than the prototype photo in the instructions.
TIA,
Joe Binish


Re: Railroad Press Magazine

Greg Bartek
 

Ed,

If this is the magazine you mention, is it also referred to as TRP, The
Railroad Press? When I can get it, I look forward to the articles
written by Mike Bednar. Great insights to the Lehigh Valley region.

Greg Bartek

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
Anyone familiar with "Railroad Prsss magazine"?

Ed


Re: pattern making

Tim O'Connor
 

But Paul, that's an entirely different equation -- SPH&TS doesn't do custom
tooling, it just does custom paint. Many vendors will do this at very reasonable
prices. My club has raised thousands of dollars for itself selling Intermountain,
Accurail, Athearn and other cars with custom lettering -- and at low prices they
sell as many as 500 cars. This year we're doing the new Accurail 3-bay hopper.

I'm not interested in that stuff -- what I'd like is a 1950's SP TOFC train, and
no one is going to produce SP Clejans (two styles) and SP F-70-10 flat cars in
plastic, plus the trailers... And I'd really like SP G-50-25's (I think that is the
correct class), which was the gondola used for Kaiser ore before the delivery
of the 100 ton cars.

Resin also seems ideal for production of details like -- cushion underframes,
unique box car doors, scale draft gear, coil car hoods, and stuff like the passenger
car parts Tom mentioned. It may also be good for trucks that will never be done
in plastic, like the Chrysler trucks, the 2DF8's with coil-leaf-coil package, etc.

Tim O'Connor

Tim:
We use a figure of 100 kits for the SPH&TS annual car, we usually sell out
and it works out fine for us. 300 kits will take a long time to amortize
your investment.
Paul C. Koehler


Railroad Press Magazine

ed_mines
 

Anyone familiar with "Railroad Prsss magazine"?

Ed


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 16, 8:22am, Bruce Smith wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] BLI vs. Walthers express reefers
AFAIK, they are identical prototypes. I would LOVE to see an
unbiased side by side review of these cars.

Perhaps if you wait long enough, that fellow from Auburn will write them
up in The Keystone Modeler.

;-)

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Stereolith / Rapid Prototyping.

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 15, 10:46pm, raildata@... wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Stereolith / Rapid Prototyping.
I have been doing engineering design of injection molded cars and
locomtives
for virtually every HO and O scale manufacturer for many years using
AutoCAD.
For what it is worth, my guess (and Tom concurs) is that the "man hours"
involved in doing a set of 3D CAD designs for a resin master is about
the same
as for doing an injection molded car.
Chuck,

Is it easier to create a CAD drawing for RP as compared to doing
drawings for injection-molding? I am under the impression that I could
easily do a CAD drawing for a box car, whereas DESIGNING injection molds
requires far more intelligence, skill, and experience than just re-drawing
a paper drawing on the computer. I would think that the RP method frees
one from having to consider things like material flow, how to eject the
part from the mold, etc. I do, of course, realize that resin casting can
only handle undercuts to a very limited extent.

Are my fantasies even *close* to reality, or am I way off base?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: pattern making

Paul & Theri Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Tim:



We use a figure of 100 kits for the SPH&TS annual car, we usually sell out
and it works out fine for us. 300 kits will take a long time to amortize
your investment.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
timboconnor@...
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: pattern making



Even at Al's quoted price of $3,000 this seems like a very low barrier
to entry for would-be manufacturers who want to see their favorite
prototype cars produced. Amortizing over 300 kits is $10 each which
seems very, very reasonable to me. I think many people have the
data and photos, so if people like Jim King are offering their services
I hope we'll see more good stuff. The only risk is that attracting 300
buyers is more daunting than it should be -- I think Jon Cagle has
not sold nearly that number of his amazingly good Harriman cars.

Tim "wannabe resin kit entrepreneur" O.





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Re: pattern making

Tim O'Connor
 

Even at Al's quoted price of $3,000 this seems like a very low barrier
to entry for would-be manufacturers who want to see their favorite
prototype cars produced. Amortizing over 300 kits is $10 each which
seems very, very reasonable to me. I think many people have the
data and photos, so if people like Jim King are offering their services
I hope we'll see more good stuff. The only risk is that attracting 300
buyers is more daunting than it should be -- I think Jon Cagle has
not sold nearly that number of his amazingly good Harriman cars.

Tim "wannabe resin kit entrepreneur" O.


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

AFAIK, they are identical prototypes.<
I have a pair of BLIs as the lettering I wanted (earlier style) was not
done by Walthers. Not being a expert on these cars all I have to say is
they look very nice and I didn't have to installing the handrails.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: CG ventilated boxcar & pattern making

James Eckman
 

From: "pullmanboss" <tgmadden@...>

One additional note - this is not for the faint of wallet! You're dealing with a $250K machine and resin that runs a buck a gram.
Kind of like laser machining systems 20 years ago. Now you can get a desktop for $4K? Still even $4K is expensive for one tool, but the service bureaus will get better and in a few years we can crank out freight car parts like there's no tomorrow! There's laser cut freight car kits now.

I had one of our sales guys price out those windowed boxcar side pieces (three needed to make one side) as if I were a regular customer, and he came up with $163. Each.
For the level of detail, how many hours would it take to make one piece? 10? 20? more? Sounds not unreasonable.

All that showed is that our pricing algorithims don't work for very small and complex parts, and we worked out a much more favorable price. But be prepared for sticker shock.
What's more reasonable? Ballpark is fine...

Even so, if you value your time at all, or if you can't model to that level of detail, it's worth it. That's why this thread grew from Andy Carlson's observation that not every skilled pattern maker wants to work for free.
I usually build wooden cars so the rivet issue doesn't come up, but if it does!!!

From: raildata@...

I have been doing engineering design of injection molded cars and locomtives for virtually every HO and O scale manufacturer for many years using AutoCAD. For what it is worth, my guess (and Tom concurs) is that the "man hours" involved in doing a set of 3D CAD designs for a resin master is about the same as for doing an injection molded car. The injection molded design takes a bit more because of air brake piping, etc. which are cast instead of letting the modeler form from wire.
If there are any savings, they would be when you make variations which is trivial with CAD, not so trivial with models.

What this means in terms of $$$ is a function of what hourly rate you set for a CAD design engineer vs a highly skilled modelmaker. Interesting question, but basically it is what themarket will support!
Hopefully it will stay high, otherwise some of my friends will have to flip burgers instead!

Jim Eckman


A point of order - war board cousins

Bob Webber <no17@...>
 

Tony, of course you are correct. I didn't intend to be lazy and slip in that poor excuse, but was attempting to limit the discussion and try to keep it corralled within the bounds. I should have known the rocket scientist and metallurgist would not let it go. I spoke with Bob LeMassena for a few hours one day about this topic (if you have ever spoke to Bob about steam locomotives, you realize that this qualifies as a short talk). He explained the metal issues (and it is also in his book "Superpower in the Rockies") but he went into it further in person.

As another aside, there were a LOT of improvements that came near the end of steam that showed tremendous promise that had they been followed through might have shown tremendous leaps over then current technology. I'm sure the Pennsy foamers can chime in here. But that too is a trip off the course.

And, as another aside, yes, Richard, my understanding of the Car Construction Committee is less than decent, something that is a result of being more interested in slightly narrower and shorter cars that were running behind steam for a much longer span and having to be more conversant with certain other aspects of certain railroad in order to try to write about it.

My interests in these specific cars have to do with the possibility of finding a car "family" that might be made available for the roads that didn't have large fleets of cars liable to be targets of manufacturer (like, say the AT&SF). From your note though, it seems the approach has already been used. However, I wonder then about tank cars as that is one car type that always seems to be decried as not having proper representation in the model world due to the many variances and the uncertain prototypes so far chosen.



At 02:54 AM 9/16/2005, you wrote:
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:08:21 -0700
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Subject: Re: A point of order - war board cousins

Bob Webber said:
. . . Bob [LeMassena]
has explained the problem, bad boiler metals caused some premature
boiler issues that caused some boiler mishaps and they figured they'd
retire them rather than reboiler them."
Yes. I did a bit of research and noted the same thing. Interestingly,
NP
encountered the same thing and they did reboiler.
While we are on "metallurgy," I will comment briefly that the
steels chosen in order to go to thinner boiler shells (thus saving
weight on these big locos) yet keep high boiler pressures turned out to
be unsuitable. It was not "bad metal" but a poor choice by the
builders, who chose the alloys used. They turned out to be sensitive to
stress-corrosion cracking under the temperatures and water chemistries
used. Had this not happened at the very end of steam, it would surely
have been corrected (there are far better alloys to use), but of course
this was not to be.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompson@...
Bob Webber

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