Date   

Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Jan 24, 8:45pm, Ben Hom wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)
I like to think of this as the "Christine Syndrome" - a hundred years
from now, researchers of the Rock Island will conclude that the RI
commuter power pool consisted of Christines and E6s based on the
number of photos in existence!
FYI: "Christine" was RI DL-109 #621. It was re-engined by EMD, so took on
a unique appearance. That's why everyone photographed it. "Christine"
refers to a famous person of the '50's who underwent a sex-change
operation.


My personal favorites are
Jack Delano's color photos for the Office of War Information during
WWII - whole yard photos in color documenting the variety of
equipment at that time and (more importantly for those who DON'T
model the 1940s) are a great reference for accurately weathering
steam-era equipment.
I was unable to find these at the Library of Congress website. (I did find
a bunch of Mr. Delano's photos, however). What search URL is best to use?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Coal Dispersal

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

This might well explain why the N&W would be receiving coal from other
sources. Perhaps a customer needed a blend that included some
Pennsylvania anthracite, for example, or a particular coal with some
other special property that was not mined on the N&W.
That may be (tho I have some doubts about the RR's being all that helpful in
1950) and is just one more item to consider WRT foreign road cars in coal
service.

Bottom line is roads did receive coal that was mined offline. I havn't
heard anybody suggest there was a pool of hoppers (like what one might have
seen with auto cars) so I think there is a case for including foreign road
hoppers, maybe lots of them, in specific cases.

Dave Nelson


Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)

Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Ted Cullotta wrote:

"Many photographers may have photographed freight cars because of the
shock value to that particular photographer, thereby making the
extremely rare seem commonplace to subsequent would-be historians
examining the photos. I'm sure that there are many instances (and I
don't use this example literally, but rather illustratively) of a
photographer snapping a picture of the one pickle car he's ever seen
rather than the thousands of seemingly mundane hoppers that were
always 'in the way' when he peered through his viewfinder."

I like to think of this as the "Christine Syndrome" - a hundred years
from now, researchers of the Rock Island will conclude that the RI
commuter power pool consisted of Christines and E6s based on the
number of photos in existence!

Seriously, though, this underlines one of the few pitfalls of
photographic documentation - the natural human desire of a
photgrapher to record the unusual rather than the mundane. This
makes all of that work spent with a magnifying glass over yard and
whole train pictures important because it allows the researcher the
ability to see the forest for the trees. My personal favorites are
Jack Delano's color photos for the Office of War Information during
WWII - whole yard photos in color documenting the variety of
equipment at that time and (more importantly for those who DON'T
model the 1940s) are a great reference for accurately weathering
steam-era equipment.

Of course, none of this is meant to discount the vital role of photos
in research.


Ben Hom


Re: Coal Dispersal

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dave and friends,

All coal is not the same. It has different thermal values, different
chemical components, different amounts of ash, etc. Metallurgical coal
(for smelting) is not the same as steamer coal (for power plants).

When I toured the N&W export yards in Norfolk about 17 years ago, I was
surprised to learn all this. Coal from many different sources was being
"warehoused" in their yard. This was blended as it was loaded onto ships
to the buyers' specifications. The properties of every car of coal
received were held in their computers, and specific cuts of cars were
pulled for blending as needed.

This might well explain why the N&W would be receiving coal from other
sources. Perhaps a customer needed a blend that included some
Pennsylvania anthracite, for example, or a particular coal with some
other special property that was not mined on the N&W.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:


... For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
SP: 300k tons
MP: 1100k tons
NKP: 10900k tons (suggests why the NKP was bought by the NW, doesn't it?)
NW: 4900k tons
CBQ: 2400k tons
....And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....


Re: Coal Dispersal

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
As far as the coal haulers go, I think we'll find that it depends on the
location. I'm reasonably certain that I've seen evidence of L&N hoppers
rolling on other coal hauler tracks somewhere.
On the SRR route I mentioned earlier (Asheville, NC), the most common
foreign hoppers were Clinchfield (there was a crossing with an exchange),
followed by the L&N.

It is probably fair to say that within the coal districts one might
reasonably expect to see home road cars almost exclusively but once out of
the coal fields the connecting roads may well have moved cars from multiple
rail sources -- so a more complete answer to original question really does
depends on location.

From the ICC data one might infer some of this non-home road pattern from
whatever coal tonnage is recorded as inbound or bridge. Not a surefire
method in the upper midwest or east coast as water borne coal would be
classified this way too -- meerly suggestive there. In the west, western
half of the midwest, and perhaps parts of the south it's probably a good
enough approach absent other data.

For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
SP: 300k tons
MP: 1100k tons
NKP: 10900k tons (suggests why the NKP was bought by the NW, doesn't it?)
NW: 4900k tons
CBQ: 2400k tons

Yeah, mostly GS gons, not hoppers, but the point here is about coal routings
and most of the data I have is western, but it does address the point.
Anyway, coal carloads averaged a bit more than 50 tons/car if one wants to
calculate carloadings. By this measure, the puny tonnage on the SP still
amounted to ~6000 cars in the year.

And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....

Dave Nelson


Re: Coal Dispersal

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike, an interesting sidelight on L&N coal-hauling operations. Owing to
chronic car shortages during WW II, the International Harvester Co. was
having great difficulty getting a steady supply of coal from a
company-owned coal mine at Benham, KY on the L&N to a company-owned steel
mill near Chicago. They therefore purchased a slew of second-hand L&N
USRA-design twin hoppers (the 7/43 ORER shows 447 cars) which were numbered
in the IHCX 201-700 series and operated in captive service - the ORER entry
specifies that these cars were to be loaded only at the Wisconsin Steel
Coal Mines at Benham, KY. and the cars were stenciled "return to Benham, KY
via L&N RR." After the war, IHC continued to own and operate these cars
through the 1950s and into the early '60s (I have a photo of one still in
service at Chicago in '63, though they're gone from my '65 ORER). I also
have a photo of two IHCX hoppers at Columbus, OH in 6/59, coupled to an L&N
hopper which also was stenciled "return to Benham...." (I wonder what they
were doing in Columbus? I'd expect them to be routed via PRR or Monon from
Louisville to Chicago. Maybe IHC was routing them to another destination
by the late '50s.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Coal Dispersal

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Doing a tiny bit of research on coal dispersal, I find this from Louisville
& Nashville Railroad The Old Reliable by Castner, Flanary and Dorin. I've
met Castner before and he's quite creditable.

Referencing a photo of CV Division local #64 in Big Stone Gap, VA, in '54 on
pg 159, "The south end of the CV handled coal routed via the N&W/Norton as
well as coal for markets in the Carolinas via the Clinchfield and ACL/SAL
connections at CRR's south end."

Referring to Corbin, KY, "After washing, coal was reloaded into the same
hoppers and shipped north each night ....to the Cincinnati gateway. From
Cincy, either the NYC or Pennsy forwarded the trains on to US Steel's Gary,
Indiana mills."

"For most of the L&N's history, 'King Coal' moved predominantly northward
from yards at Corbin, Hazard, Loyall and Ravenna to Cincinnati and
Louisville gateways. There, connecting roads...B&O, NYC, Monon, and
Pennsy...handled the coal on to midwestern or northeastern consignees. A
fair amount of coal also went north to the Great Lakes on the C&O via its
Northern Division through Columbus,OH." Apparently, significant demands for
coal in the South developed after our time period. BTW, L&N moved 38 million
tons of coal in '48 making it a major force in coal traffic.

There is an interesting photo in Chesapeake & Ohio in the Coal Fields by
Tomas Dixon, Jr. on pg 50. It shows C&O engine 2759 "with an eastbound of
empty Virginian hoppers at Catlettsburg, KY in '53. The train is headed for
West Gilbert, at the extreme end of the Logan branch, where connection was
made with the Virginian Railway."

Referring again to the same book, pg 13, "The area around Beckley was
honeycombed with railroads and coal mines and the C&O and Virginian
overlapped in many areas. Several mines were served by both RRs." "The next
RR facility to the west was at Gauley Bridge which assembled coal from C&O's
Gauley Subdivision as well as coal delivered by the NYC off its K&M lines
for transportation east."

There is a rather amusing photo on pg 218 in The Last of Steam by Collias.
It shows Santa Fe lettered 2-10-4 5012 leading 101 N&W hoppers through Siam,
OH, on the Pennsy. And, proving that the Santa Fe engines believed in
fairness, the page also shows Santa Fe 5034 pulling what appears to be C&O
empty hoppers through the same locale. These examples, of course, are among
those ATSF 2-10-4s leased by the Pennsy during 1956.

It is clear from just a little bit of looking, that the RRs north of the
coal hauling gateways of Cincinnati and Columbus would see many hoppers of
various coal hauling RRs including N&W, C&O and L&N. I believe that much of
this coal went to the steel industry in the upper midwest. It is also clear
that in the '40s and '50s individual homes depended on coal for heating. So,
I would suggest that anyone modeling RRs in the midwest...particularly those
in a north/south direction... should expect to see hopper drags from the
coal hauling RRs and, in our time period, smaller numbers of cars in
trains.

As far as the coal haulers go, I think we'll find that it depends on the
location. I'm reasonably certain that I've seen evidence of L&N hoppers
rolling on other coal hauler tracks somewhere.

Mike Brock


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Garth wrote:

Of course, freight cars themselves were almost never photographed by
fans in those days, unless they just happened to be behind some monster
steam locomotive.

I would agree with him and also add that many photographers may have
photographed freight cars because of the shock value to that particular
photographer, thereby making the extremely rare seem commonplace to
subsequent would-be historians examining the photos. I'm sure that there
are many instances (and I don't use this example literally, but rather
illustratively) of a photographer snapping a picture of the one pickle car
he's ever seen rather than the thousands of seemingly mundane hoppers that
were always 'in the way' when he peered through his viewfinder.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: Garth G. Groff [mailto:ggg9y@virginia.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 5:19 AM
To: STMFC@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: War Emergency Hoppers


Tony,

Via-a-vis the C&O, the purity of their coal trains varied with different
parts of the system. In Virginia, published photo evidence shows that in
the late steam era the trains were about 99% C&O. The major exception
was for Berwind hoppers. A modest fleet of these was mixed with the
C&O's, and indeed they were maintained at Newport News.

In western West Virginia and Kentucky, the situation was quite
different. The C&O had joint operations with the Virginian and the NYC
(the details of which I no longer have). There are published photos
showing Virginian cars in C&O trains from this area. Cars from these two
roads, at least, would not have been rare, though probably not so common
on the C&O either. More likely they would have been loaded on joint
lines for a specific destination on their home roads, picked up in a
local or sweeper train, and then marshalled into cuts for interchange to
their home roads.

Of course, freight cars themselves were almost never photographed by
fans in those days, unless they just happened to be behind some monster
steam locomotive. This tends to skew the value of photos as evidence. I
agree that conductors' books are better sources, but you would still
need a pile of them from different men, since a conductor with seniority
might always be on the same run with the same car mix (or lack of mix)
for years at a time.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff
Not based on the C&O photos I've browsed--though I can't claim to be
anything like an expert on C&O.
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Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony,

Via-a-vis the C&O, the purity of their coal trains varied with different
parts of the system. In Virginia, published photo evidence shows that in
the late steam era the trains were about 99% C&O. The major exception
was for Berwind hoppers. A modest fleet of these was mixed with the
C&O's, and indeed they were maintained at Newport News.

In western West Virginia and Kentucky, the situation was quite
different. The C&O had joint operations with the Virginian and the NYC
(the details of which I no longer have). There are published photos
showing Virginian cars in C&O trains from this area. Cars from these two
roads, at least, would not have been rare, though probably not so common
on the C&O either. More likely they would have been loaded on joint
lines for a specific destination on their home roads, picked up in a
local or sweeper train, and then marshalled into cuts for interchange to
their home roads.

Of course, freight cars themselves were almost never photographed by
fans in those days, unless they just happened to be behind some monster
steam locomotive. This tends to skew the value of photos as evidence. I
agree that conductors' books are better sources, but you would still
need a pile of them from different men, since a conductor with seniority
might always be on the same run with the same car mix (or lack of mix)
for years at a time.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Not based on the C&O photos I've browsed--though I can't claim to be
anything like an expert on C&O.


Re: The West

thompson@...
 

Mike Brock observed:
Indeed, the professor thought that Pittsburgh...or Fort Pitt to him...was
the gateway to the West.
That was indeed Pittsburgh's title--circa 1840. Doubt it was used since.
It's now used to get a laugh in Pittsburgh.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

thompson@...
 

Mike Brock says:
I believe that most photographic evidence will show that during the steam
era, N&W coal trains operating on N&W tracks contained a very high per
centage of N&W hoppers. I'm not nearly so certain about the C&O...primarily
because there were certain areas where coal was, I think, interchanged
between other RRs and the C&O.
Not based on the C&O photos I've browsed--though I can't claim to be
anything like an expert on C&O.

Here, things get a bit tricky. The Prince book shows...and there is a
pamphlet published by the N&W itself supporting Prince's book...that 22
million tons went west of N&W's coal fields...basically through Cicinnati.
Now, this stuff, apparently, found its way into Indiana, Ohio, and Illinois,
Chicago being mentioned. There was a lot of plants using coal back then in
those areas. I have seen some photos of groups of N&W hoppers in trains
moving through the area but real data would be needed to know for sure. The
B&O steam tape by Heron does show 4 or 5 N&W hoppers being moved near a B&O
coaling tower in the upper midwest.
I don't claim N&W (or any particular road) didn't send hoppers off line.
What I do say is that, aside from traffic like coal to the Great Lakes, it
was only in small groups in MOST cases. Documentation needed in general.

My all time favorite, of course, is that damned
Lackawanna [ heck, I don't know how to spell it, why should I? ] hopper
behind the Challenger on Sherman Hill. Second, though, has to be the lone MP
hopper in the long string of B&O cars heading from Lake Erie back to West BY
God Virginia.
Note: one lonely hopper in each case. If you want oddballs, I have a
photo of a Reading (empty) hopper in LA in the early 1950s. Am I going to
model it? Hell no.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: The West

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Been there already. Wall ain't worth a bucket o warm spit.
Charming. You Californicators have a way with words.


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

The Santa Fe used their WE hoppers for coal service on the eastern part
of the system and also for borate service on the Mojave desert in Calif.
In neither role did they go off-line much; all the photos I have show
them on Santa Fe rails except for one Paul Dunn shot of a Ga-62 at
Zanesville, OH. The Q cars were used mostly in Illinois coal service,
as were the Illinois Central's. So the generalization that these cars
didn't stray far from home rails applies out west as well as on the
eastern coal roads.
I don't have any evidence from the 1940's, but I do have plenty of photos
from the "Front Range" of Colorado in the 1960's showing a lot of hoppers
from distant owners, and lots of mixed up consists. The beet harvest in
Colorado and Wyoming was quite intense, and everyone seemed to get a
piece of the action. Cars were shanghied as needed, evidently. Pueblo
(CF&I Steel) received coke from the east, resulting in L&N and Southern
Railway and IC hoppers. C&NW hoppers are in abundance too. But Richard
is no doubt correct in the sense that 99% of Q and AT&SF hoppers were
probably on home rails 90% (or more) of the time.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: The West

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim O'Connor [mailto:timoconnor@mediaone.net]
Why would I go to South Dakota? (Why would anybody go to South Dakota?)
Teddy Roosevelt is rolling over in his grave...
No, he went to North Dakota.


Heck, even Richard Steinheimer went to South Dakota! What makes you
so special? Now get out there, and go to Wall.
Been there already. Wall ain't worth a bucket o warm spit.

The west begins at the 100th meridian -- just east of Denver.

Dave Nelson


Re: War Emergency Hoppers

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Shawn Beckert wrote

My problem is nailing down the type of traffic that moved
on the Cotton Belt during these years. Since this was a
"bridge line" moving freight through the St. Louis gateway
to points West, I can get away with running all types of
cars, up to a point. What's hard is trying to pin down what
percentage of what kind of freight moved on the SSW. And one
of my problems is knowing how much coal - if any - they were
moving in my era of interest. I asked about the P2K hoppers
because I don't want to spend money on them if they wouldn't
normally be seen in Cotton Belt territory. Thus my question
to the List. Can anyone tell me with confidence that these
cars should not be represented on my railroad?
From my "Report on the Alton Railroad Company", there is a
table showing that "transcontinental traffic"* for 1920's-30's

(1) Tonnage split about 68% eastbound, 32% westbound
(2) About 39% of eastbound tons were perishable foods
(3) About 38% of eastbound tons were lumber and wood products
(4) About 15% of westbound tons were iron, steel products
(5) About 19% of westbound tons were autos, trucks, parts
(6) Other westbound traffic was manufactured products which
included merchandise, paper, foods, beverages

That sounds about right to me for bridge traffic on the SSW.
Coal would have been received by the SSW at St Louis, Memphis
and other points for distribution all over its lines, but not
as bridge traffic. I think IC, GM&O, L&N, NC&StL, Southern,
B&O, C&O, Wabash, CB&Q, MP, C&EI, RI, and even NYC coal cars
would not be unusual on the SSW between St Louis/Memphis and
Pine Bluff. What you need is a list of SSW online customers to
see which ones received coal, and from whom!

[ * The table is not entirely clear about how it defines
traffic to be transcontinental or not. My guess is that
it may simply mean freight conveyed from western roads
to eastern or midwestern connections. The book is chock
full of data and I haven't studied much of it closely. ]

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: offline hoppers (was War Emergency hoppers)

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Quickly perusing scanned photos, I find an N&W hopper in Toronto
in 1956, and another in East Texas in the 1970's (also a B&O and
some MP cars, all together at an oil refinery). And I did mention
to Mr. Brock once before that a Milwaukee Road video I rented had
a shot of a freight near Bozeman, Montana with an N&W hopper just
a few cars back of the locomotive.

If anyone is dead set on getting it absolutely straight, the
only recourse is actual conductor's books or other records like
Jeff English's Rutland data. The coal business and the railroad
business were intimately linked (many railroads had interest in
coal companies or vice versa) and the patterns of "typical" car
movements no doubt were strongly influenced by where the coal
came from, who bought it, and what affiliations (if any) there
were between the producer, the railroads, and the consumer.

I shrink from a task so complicated!! I say, if you can find a
photo, any photo, that's all the proof you need!

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: The West

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Actually, the Burlington put their Everywhere West slogan on
freight cars because they were the only one of the Hill lines
that went to Chicago. What would be the point of putting such
a slogan on GN or NP cars? They served depopulated wastelands
and no one there could read anyway...

Your turn.


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: The West

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 07:09 PM 1/23/01 -0800, you wrote:

East of the rockies, you can fly at 500 ft. AGL all day and never
worry about running into anything except the occasional microwave
tower - at least, until you get to the Appalachians
Ahem, Richard, just don't head your way into South Dakota, or you
are liable to bump into something considerably taller than a microwave
tower...
Why would I go to South Dakota? (Why would anybody go to South Dakota?)
Teddy Roosevelt is rolling over in his grave...

Heck, even Richard Steinheimer went to South Dakota! What makes you
so special? Now get out there, and go to Wall.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: The West

ibs4421@...
 

OK Gize,
"The West": it's a matter of perspective , ok? To an 18th
century US History nut like my wife, where we live (Kentucky) is "The West".
I have spent a very inordinate amount of time studying and living in the
19th century for the past 18 years, and this area was still considered "The
West" back then. Heck, people think that by my living in Kentucky, I'm
still in "The South", HAH! Wrong! I'm on LP/OP up here against the Godless
Mercenary Yankee hordes as far as this Alabama boy is concerned.

Warren Dickinson
Just bought an 0-8-0 for the Memphis Line


West

Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
 

Pennsylvania Railroad, Lines West
Cinncinnatti (sp?) Queen City of the West
Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland)
Mae West
I gotta west now

188161 - 188180 of 188615