Date   

Re: Steel vs. Aluminum (was: Ships vs freight cars (was:Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar - Murphy and Hutchins Roofs))

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Manfred Lorenz wrote:
And high fuel prices would affect aluminum production costs anyway. I
think most aluminum is made by electric arc ovens. Not until one has
cheap hydro electric power or coal that is not so much affected by oil
transport costs it would soon gain an advantage to use aluminum instead
of steel.
I can't speak for other parts of the world, but in North America all significant aluminum refining is located close to sources of cheap hydropower. As Manfred says, reduction is by electricity, but there is no "arc" or "oven" involved; it is strictly electrochemical, with electrodes in a vat, though at elevated temperatures. Heating is readily provided by the huge current, so no oven is needed. If an arc occurs, it means trouble!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar - Murphy and Hutchins Roofs

George Hollwedel <georgeloop1338@...>
 

Wow Pat, even us SP and ATSF modelers are looking forward to that article!

Patrick Wider <pwider@...> wrote:Be advised that the aforementioned table in MM has too many errors and omissions to list
here. My data show that only the 13500-13999 series ribbed-side cars built in 1937 had
Hutchins Welded roofs. The rest had Murphy Welded roofs of varying types including
diagonal panel (25538-28559). FYI: I have prepared a 75-page article on these cars that
will be published in RP CYC Vol. 13 (the one after the one that's due out in about a week).

The roof panel thickness used on the early MILW ribbed-side cars was 14 gauge. This
equates to a 0.0781" thickness (US Standard Gauge). This also equates to 3.2812 lbs/sq ft
- considerably less than the number stated below. If 1/4" plate was used for box car
roofs, it would adversely affect the car's empty weight as well as the vertical location of its
center-of-gravity and its stability. The cars' sides would also have to be strengthened.
Note that 1/4"-thick steel plate was used for car ends and it was reduced to 0.20"
thickness in places due to stretching when being formed in the pressing dies.

Pat Wider



George Hollwedel
Prototype N Scale Models
georgeloop@...
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883

---------------------------------
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Re: Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar - Murphy and Hutchins Roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Pat Wider wrote:

Be advised that the aforementioned table in MM has too many errors and omissions to list
here . . . FYI: I have prepared a 75-page article on these cars that
will be published in RP CYC Vol. 13 (the one after the one that's due out in about a week).
Excellent news, Pat! I'm sure many on the list will joining me in happy expectations!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Note that the cars later received high speed roller bearing trucks. I have
a scan that is dated 1945 although I don't know if that's correct.

It's very interesting that GN applied 8 panels to the car side as they did
with their plywood cars, while the other cars mentioned had 14 panel sides.

Tom Baker asked:
"Didn't the Great Northern also have some aluminum box cars. Right now
I cannot recall how many, but it was not very many. Perhaps they were
built in the St. Cloud shops."

GN 2500, one car built by the GN in 1944. Photo from the pay side of
the RPI website, scanned from the 1946 CBC:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Box-cars/1937-aar/GN-aluminum-37-xm-46-cyc.jpg

Ben Hom


Re: Mea Culpa. Was: Reboxx axle lengths.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

0.500"; 0.600"; 0.700"; 0.800; 0.900"; 1.005"; 1.010" (3); 1.015"
(2); 1.020" (3); 1.025" (2); 1.030"; 1.035"; 1.040"; 1.045"; 1.055".
>>

Denny,

For what purpose do you use 0.500" - 0.900" axle length?
>
and-

Yabut 0.500"? That sounds like H0n2 1/2!
[ed. Manfred has obviously been spending too much time in Minnesota].

Wow! As usual Manfred called me out, and- my wits simply cannot work fast enough to to cover my tracks!

The correct list should read:

0.950"; 0.960"; 0.970"; 0.980; 0.990"; 1.000"; 1.005"; 1.010" (3); 1.015" (2); 1.020" (3); 1.025" (2); 1.030"; 1.035"; 1.040"; 1.045"; 1.055".

As Ted points out, there are a number of trucks that demand narrow axle lengths, particularly some of the brass trucks. I have some brass trucks that are currently demanding axle replacements of 0.945", (or less).

My standard for choice of ideal axle length is related to rollability alone, independent of axle end play.

Denny

--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

It's not apparent to me exactly what era you fellows are discussing but there are beaucoup
photos of these cars in RP Cyc Volumes 7 and 9, some even in color. Always work from a
photo or company diagram if you can. Unfortunately, B&W photos always leave you with as
many questions as they answer. IMHO: Roseman's work is not definitive. Note that his
book doesn't include a single REA Company lettering diagram with authenticated dates
and/or paint specs. Also, sorry for the plug again!!!!

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Daniel J Miller" <djmiller@b...> wrote:
Jon,

Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car
definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left
side of the door.

In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information
from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA
cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II
(for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with
the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't
distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car
would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff
lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is
made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car
number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet
for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on
both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the
left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black,
not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like
both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some
kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information
from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support
either model?

Dan Miller


From Thomas Olsen:

Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from
American Railway Express):
Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold,
may have been (at various times
Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint
(buff). Lettering was 5" extended
Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a
replacement for metallic paint
and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black.

Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and
Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams
gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to
tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off
when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I
was replaced in 1947 and again in
1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various
schemes lasted beyond introduction
dates before repainting.

In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53'
Express Reefers (Sunshine
Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars
specifically in REA service, agrees with the
Roseman book with some exceptions:
Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name
"Railway Express Agency" and other
lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that
the earlier schemes (wood sheathed
cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the
words "Express Refrigerator" and
car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is
the same location as the diagram in
the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the
letterboard to the left of
the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of
the car side, equidistant from the
door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right
car side side below the letterboard
with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book)
below, also to the right of the door.
The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed
from the lower right side.


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

oliver
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:
Also, for those of you who like to re-detail things and prefer to work
with undecs, Microscale makes a good set to letter the recent
Walthers, BLI or Branchline releases of REA equipment.

Ted,
What is the consensus on the paint applied to either car by Walthers
and BLI? If one wanted to use undecs. what is the best choice for the
paint on these cars? I'm working on some PFE conversions and elected
to start with undecs to avoid having to match paint. Is this a better
approach for the REA cars?
regards
Stefan Lerché
Duncan, BC


Re: Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:
Maybe I can help sum up the desirable characteristics of a box car
roof? It should be:
...
12. easily assembled - that includes riveting or welding, your choice
Mr. Carbuilder.

OK, what have I forgotten?????
--------------------------------

Easy to model?

Manfred


Re: Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

Maybe I can help sum up the desirable characteristics of a box car roof? It should be:

1. strong - it has to be self-supporting as well as support the weight of snow and ice as
well as the weight of one or more men (also women and eunuchs?) walking on the running
board (roof walk to the newbees).
2. lightweight - lightness is good here, it allows more freight to be carried and it keeps
the car's cg as low as possible. cg = center-of-gravity.
3. cheap - no explanation necessary.
4. easily transportable - that limits its size.
5. easily storable - that also limits its size.
6. leakproof - that keeps the grain and paper products dry.
7. easily repairable by any railroad's car shop - Hey Homer get me one of those "Murphy"
(SRE) roof panels off of the pallet, will yah?.
8. rust resistant - certain steel alloys and galvanizing help here.
9. cinder and dustproof - similar to leakproof.
10. rigid - "oil canning" and racking are undesireable - after all, the car should remain
square.
11. easily formed - that rules out 40' and 50' single-piece monsters, especially where the
mating male and female steel dies are concerned, not to mention the press that has to
evenly apply the forming pressures, and
12. easily assembled - that includes riveting or welding, your choice Mr. Carbuilder.

OK, what have I forgotten?????

Pat Wider


Re: Trucks On SP Gondolas

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
... Classes G-50-11 and -12
are distinguished by a row of rivets on the side sheets where they
join
to the sloped part. IIRC the Pacific Limited cars don't have that
and
are therefore G-50-9 or -10.
Those are the as-built trucks. In the 1950s, a number of
cars
received replacement AAR trucks, so that is a possibility too.
Just for the record, Pacific Limited imported BOTH types of SP
gondolas in "O" scale. PL#1650 (came with brass T-section Bettendorf
trucks) has no rivet row on the side sheets, and PL#2000 (came with
brass Dalman trucks) does.

A.T. Kott


Re: Reboxx Replacement Wheelsets

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Miller,Andrew S. wrote:

But the minimum track gauge in HO is 0.649 (I just checked on the NMRA
website), so what does one use an axle length of .500 or .600 for?
Does Denny do narrow gauge?

Interestingly, the NMRA standards website provides no data for HOn3!
Nn3 and HOn2 are defined, but not HOn3.
&#92;--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:

I carry in inventory (33" double-insulation), all in single packs
except for those marked with numbers in parentheses:

0.500"; 0.600"; 0.700"; 0.800; 0.900"; 1.005"; 1.010" (3); 1.015"
(2); 1.020" (3); 1.025" (2); 1.030"; 1.035"; 1.040"; 1.045"; 1.055".
I think Denny meant .950, .960, .970, ....

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Detail of AAR 1937 boxcar - Murphy and Hutchins Roofs

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Yeah, where the heck did I get 1/4" from? See what happens when you
try to write something before the first cup of coffee sinks in! Such
a car would've been quite a battleship!

Looking forward to the article! (holding off on some kitbashes until
I get a copy!)

Best regards,
Phil Buchwald


--- In STMFC@..., "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:

The roof panel thickness used on the early MILW ribbed-side cars
was 14 gauge. This
equates to a 0.0781" thickness (US Standard Gauge). This also
equates to 3.2812 lbs/sq ft
- considerably less than the number stated below. If 1/4" plate
was used for box car
roofs, it would adversely affect the car's empty weight as well as
the vertical location of its
center-of-gravity and its stability. The cars' sides would also
have to be strengthened.

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@g...> wrote:
Ted,
The MM article which covered the Milwaukee Road rib side
cars
had a table which showed the various doors, ends, and roofs used
on
each series. Several series were listed as having Hutchins
roofs.
Photos show these to be single rectangular raised panels like
the
Murphy. Just trying to get it straight in my head: there were
rectangular panel roofs which were marketed under the
name "Hutchins"? This would make sense out of the table in that
article.
Also, along with the discussion about single sheet vs
multi-
panel roofs: The Milwaukee cars' roofs were welded at the seam
caps,
which effectively made them one piece roofs. But the West
Milwaukee
Shops were huge, very modern facilities (for the 1930s, at
least!)
which could handle picking up a 40' x 9' piece of sheet metal.
Were
other railroads' repair and construction forces geared to handle
this big chunk of steel? Take a look at the D&H chapter in the
1932
car book and there's a good picture of a roof being assembled by
hand. Let's assume that the roof would be built up out of two
halves, with the seam running longitudinally under the roof
walk.
For a 1/4" thick sheet metal roof, that's roughly a 40' x 4.5'
sheet
of steel. My Ryerson book says that 1/4" sheet weighs 10.21
pounds
per square foot. So that half-roof weighs 1840 pounds. That gets
kind of hard for two men to handle! On the other hand, a single
panel of a Murphy roof (12 panels) weighs about 150 pounds,
which is
starting to sound like a two man job.


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

lettering color difference<
This may apply to a limited number of modelers. As I'm pre-war gold
leaf was pretty common however I would guess during and after the war it was
probably very limited, if used at all.

Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black, not green as
on both the BLI and the Walthers cars<
This is interesting! Sometimes it's hard to tell the end paint on older
B&W photos as the light is striking the car at different angles. Would be
nice if there was company painting information someplace.
Maybe it's time for an updated book?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Reboxx Replacement Wheelsets

Miller,Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

But the minimum track gauge in HO is 0.649 (I just checked on the NMRA
website), so what does one use an axle length of .500 or .600 for?
Does Denny do narrow gauge?

Interestingly, the NMRA standards website provides no data for HOn3!
Nn3 and HOn2 are defined, but not HOn3.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Ted Culotta
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Reboxx Replacement Wheelsets


On Sep 20, 2005, at 2:47 PM, Manfred Lorenz wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:

I carry in inventory (33" double-insulation), all in single packs
except for those marked with numbers in parentheses:

0.500"; 0.600"; 0.700"; 0.800; 0.900"; 1.005"; 1.010" (3); 1.015"
(2); 1.020" (3); 1.025" (2); 1.030"; 1.035"; 1.040"; 1.045"; 1.055".
Denny,

For what purpose do you use 0.500" - 0.900" axle length?
Manfred:

There are trucks (the Kato ASF A-3 and Atlas "Bettendorf" come to mind)

that use axle lengths <1.000"

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars....was....Ships vs freight cars

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

One - #2500. See RP Cyc., Vol. 8, p.10. St. Cloud it is. Sorry for the plug.

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@a...> wrote:
Didn't the Great Northern also have some aluminum box cars. Right now I cannot recall
how many, but it was not very many. Perhaps they were built in the St. Cloud shops.

Tom


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
 

Jon,

Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car
definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left
side of the door.

In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information
from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA
cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II
(for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with
the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't
distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car
would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff
lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is
made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car
number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet
for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on
both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the
left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black,
not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like
both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some
kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information
from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support
either model?

Dan Miller


From Thomas Olsen:

Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from
American Railway Express):
Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold,
may have been (at various times
Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint
(buff). Lettering was 5" extended
Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a
replacement for metallic paint
and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black.

Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and
Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams
gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to
tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off
when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I
was replaced in 1947 and again in
1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various
schemes lasted beyond introduction
dates before repainting.

In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53'
Express Reefers (Sunshine
Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars
specifically in REA service, agrees with the
Roseman book with some exceptions:
Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name
"Railway Express Agency" and other
lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that
the earlier schemes (wood sheathed
cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the
words "Express Refrigerator" and
car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is
the same location as the diagram in
the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the
letterboard to the left of
the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of
the car side, equidistant from the
door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right
car side side below the letterboard
with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book)
below, also to the right of the door.
The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed
from the lower right side.


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars....was....Ships vs freight cars

EHNBOM STAFFAN <staffan.ehnbom@...>
 

Didn't the Great Northern also have some aluminum box cars. Right now I cannot recall how many, but it was not very many. Perhaps they were built in the St. Cloud shops.
Yes. Just one, the GN 2500, built at St. Cloud in 1944 and not scrapped until the early 1980's.

Staffan Ehnbom


Tom

________________________________

From: STMFC@... on behalf of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Tue 9/20/2005 1:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Aluminum Freight Cars....was....Ships vs freight cars



Demetre (not signing his full name) wrote:
In 1945, the Alton, M&St.L, and Rock Island, all received boxcars
built to the Modified 1937 AAR design, using the unique 3/3/4
Dreadnaught end.
The cars were built by Mt. Vernon [a Pressed Steel subsidiary] using
aluminum supplied by Reynolds. The RI and Alton used them in head end
service. The cars were quite troublesome for the GM&O and did not
endure for very long.
Can you elaborate on the "quite troublesome" point? What
trouble did GM&O have? These aluminum box cars lasted well in some
other circumstances.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: Reboxx Replacement Wheelsets

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@s...> wrote:

There are trucks (the Kato ASF A-3 and Atlas "Bettendorf" come to
mind) that use axle lengths <1.000"
Yabut 0.500"? That sounds like H0n2 1/2!

Manfred


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars....was....Ships vs freight cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tom Baker asked:
"Didn't the Great Northern also have some aluminum box cars. Right now
I cannot recall how many, but it was not very many. Perhaps they were
built in the St. Cloud shops."

GN 2500, one car built by the GN in 1944. Photo from the pay side of
the RPI website, scanned from the 1946 CBC:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Box-cars/1937-aar/GN-
aluminum-37-xm-46-cyc.jpg


Ben Hom


Panel of plate

Manfred Lorenz
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:
Phil Buchwald wrote:
When welded, the roof has considerable stiffening in it
due to
all the seams and panels, quite different from the "single sheet of
steel" mentioned earlier.
What I understand is that a flexible roof made of panels has two
properties:
A) flexibility due to the individual panels joined at the (non-
welded) seams,
B) individual stiffening of panels from the patterns

A solid roof made of welded plates or in one piece should be less
flexible in dimension but more so for flexing. Which would require
external or pressed on ribs to avoid sagging.

I have seen an interesting approach where large panels of a boiler
where crinkled into hexagonal patterns.

I think from all the input the time we are talking here had still an
abundance of cheap labor and didn't need to think along the lines of
today where buying heavy machirey is preferred to employing people.

Regarding repairs I think it doesn't matter too much. One could
always cut a damaged prart out and replace as is done on automobiles.
If a damage to a car was done I think there was not only one or a few
panels deformed. They other would have to take up part of the
damaging force and be out fo line anyway. So when a new panel went in
it would have difficulty to fit due to distortion of the whol car
body.

Manfred

151501 - 151520 of 197031