Date   

MILW 80000 Series Gons

Michael Aufderheide
 

After these cars drifted into my brain last month, lo and behold
Classic Trains runs a photo of the MILW in the Northwest with 3! of
these cars in one photo. "can't be that hard to make", I says to
myself. Does anyone have a diagram they could post of this car?
Seems like a couple of Westerfield #2500 40ft. composite cars could be
turned into one.

Regards,

Mike


Re: Otto Perry movies

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

I noticed Richard's comment that he was watching colour video transcriptions
of Otto Perry 16mm movies of the 40's and 50's. Are these commercially
available from some where? Digital, per chance?
My wife ordered it for me from a commercial mail order catalog; it should be readily available in both videotape and DVD. The title is "Otto Perry's Santa Fe" and it was produced by the Rocky Mountain Railroad Club.

Richard Hendrickson


B&O stenciling and decal nitpicking

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I am in the process of decaling Sunshine's B&O's M27f and M15k and I
notice that near the handgrabs on the left end of each side there is is
a small rectangular stencil

This is not included in the decals of either. Does a decal exit for
this stencil somehwere in another set?

Bill Welch


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

had been available
until last winter from Sunshine Models in urethane.<
I believe that certain models that both Sunshine and Westerfield have in
resin will be done in injection plastic. The guesses are which ones, when,
and in my lifetime<G>. Plastic model makers try and guess which ones will
sell enough of to have a profit. We are lucky in that we are seeing well
done cars that we never expected to see. How long this lasts will be
anybody's guess.


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


roofs, was detail of AAR 1937 boxcar

Randy Hees <hees@...>
 

There was historically a difference between the roof structure (carlines and purlines) and the sheeting (double board wood, Murphy, etc.) so until recently strong and rigid are functions of the structure, while rust resistant, leak-proof and cinder-proof (or fire proof? (We lit a wooden car on fire over labor day weekend at our museum from cinders from a wood burning steam loco)) are functions of the sheeting. Considering how long double board roofs survived in service I sometimes wonder about leak-proof.

No argument on cheap or weight (but railroads were not historically aggressive about reducing weight as one might expect. One significant argument for narrow gauge was the reduced weight.

I wonder about repair, forming, construction and transportation issues. Being railroad related industries, transportation wasn�t really a problem, and most shops had the ability to lift large items. In an industry which was casting locomotive and tender frames in a single pour, and dealt with boiler plate on a daily basis roofs would not have challenged the technology.

I doubt that a typical shop tried to keep in stock replacement roof panels. More likely they would have either welded or riveted a patch, adapted the local common material, or ordered replacement material via the car owner if substantial repairs were needed. (or just scrapped the car and paid off the owner)

Randy Hees


Re: cars that sell;  was  BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

eabracher@...
 

In a message dated 9/21/05 11:09:57 AM, califcoast@yahoo.com writes:


wasn't there a Roma Wine
6-Dome car made in the 60s or 70s that was metal.  i
I believe it was a Thomas kit.

eric


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Daniel J Miller <djmiller@...>
 

Richard, Jon, and others,

Glad that's straightened out, and glad that (both!) the cars do appear
to be correct. Thanks for all of the information.

Dan Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:34 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Digest Number 2676

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Jon, the lettering isn't always visible in the video (the REA cars were
often quite grimy, but the evidence from the videos as well as from the
still photos I have indicates that the practice of applying "Express
Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated
from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the
lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below
is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Mather car Undeframes

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

List:

In regard to the Mather box and stock cars, there had been a remark during one of the discussions several months ago that the underframes on the urethane Mather kits from Sunshine Models were not correct. I do not remember anyone describing what was wrong with them, nor was there any reference to drawings of the correct underframes regarding the stock and box cars.

Can anyone comment on what was wrong with the kits and where correct drawings of the underframes can be located?

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

The interesting thing is that both the ACF 1947 Welded cars (now
available from Branchline) and the Wood Sheathed General American cars
(now available from Broadway Limited and Walther's) had been available
until last winter from Sunshine Models in urethane. Martin discontinued
them when he ran out of trucks and instruction sheets.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu

Jon Miller wrote:

"Express

Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated
from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the
lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below
is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.<

Then that would make the BLI good for prewar and the Walthers good for
postwar. Glad to know I purchased the right ones<VBG>. Also it means they
really aren't the same time period, just very close.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS






Yahoo! Groups Links









Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Thomas M. Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

In regard to the information on the REA equipment that I posted from the Roseman Book and the Sunshine instructions, the Branchline website also listed in-service dates for the red-white REA logo and other information regarding when changes were inaugurated for each painting and lettering phase that were mentioned in the September 2005 issue of the Keystone Modeler. I had mentioned this review to Ed Hawkins as he is still researching the inception dates. Here is his reply regarding Branchline's website information in regard to the red and white REA logo and it's initial in-service date:

" Thomas,
I've seen BT's dates as these are the same as given on their web site. I don't buy their 1953 date when the red and white diamond was first applied. My belief is that the date is 1955 based on accurately dated photos. This is the same year when the first batch of 500 steel cars came from General American (the Walthers steel express reefer with riveted sides). I still haven't come across any REA painting and stenciling drawings to confirm the date when this revision occurred.
Ed"

This is a vexing situation for those of us that model in the early 1950s. Part of the problem with photographs of these cars is the same that was talked about on this list in the last several weeks. That is the lack of dates and locations on many of the photographs that are in circulation from many of the people who are selling photographs at train shows and historical meets. As time passes and the original photos and negatives change hands, many of these photographs have gone undocumented and it is impossible to date them correctly.

I have seen this many times over in hard and soft bound publications while I was making an index of photos of various classes of PRR locomotives and their locations with regard to my modeling period and territory. Credit being given to the wrong photographer and in many cases, not only is the date bogus, but the location and direction of the loco and/or train is also bogus. I have found many instances where the engine numbers changed from one publication to another, although it was the same locomotive photograph.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Daniel J Miller wrote:

Jon,

Thanks for pointing out the lettering color difference. The BLI car
definitely has more end lettering, and the car number only on the left
side of the door.
In message 35016 on Oct 18, 2004 Thomas Olsen provided some information
from the Roseman book and the Sunshine instructions for the wood REA
cars on the paint and lettering, which I've copied below. Scheme II
(for plug door cars) was applied beginning in 1947 and Scheme III (with
the red diamond logo) beginning in 1952/3, so Roseman doesn't
distinguish among early green schemes. I suppose that the Walthers car
would represent a WWII repaint according to Roseman, since buff
lettering saw some application during the war. However, no mention is
made of when the end lettering would have been removed and when the car
number was applied to only the left side of the door. Martin's sheet
for his kit version of these cars indicates only that the number was on
both sides. Perhaps BLI is incorrect in only placing the number on the
left? Also, Roseman states that the ends of the car should be black,
not green as on both the BLI and the Walthers cars. So, it seems like
both manufacturers have incorrect paint, with BLI perhaps having some
kind of hybrid lettering. Of course, I'm going only on the information
from Thomas' message; anyone with more information that would support
either model?

Dan Miller


From Thomas Olsen:

Scheme I - Original Painting and lettering scheme (handed down from
American Railway Express):
Body color - deep green A.K.A. Pullman Green. Lettering - Gold,
may have been (at various times
Gold Leaf), Bronze (metallic) gold paint or imitation gold paint
(buff). Lettering was 5" extended
Railroad Roman. This last color (Buff) popular during WWII as a
replacement for metallic paint
and the fragile leaf process. Roof and end color - Black.

Imitation gold colors by manufacturers such as Dupont (Dulux and
Duco lines) and Sherwin-Williams
gave a bright gold appearance, but were fade resistant. Used due to
tendency of Gold Leaf to rub off
when cleaned and bronze metallic paints tended to dull. Scheme I
was replaced in 1947 and again in
1953. Reasons for longevity was that due to fleet size, various
schemes lasted beyond introduction
dates before repainting.

In Martin Lofton's Prototype Data Sheet #27A for General American 53'
Express Reefers (Sunshine
Kits 27.1-27.2), the lettering information for those cars
specifically in REA service, agrees with the
Roseman book with some exceptions:
Specifically mentions re-positioning of the company name
"Railway Express Agency" and other
lettering beginning in 1952, rather than 1953. It states that
the earlier schemes (wood sheathed
cars only) had the company name on the letterboard, with the
words "Express Refrigerator" and
car number on the car side on both sides of the door. This is
the same location as the diagram in
the Roseman book. In 1952, the company name moved to below the
letterboard to the left of
the door with the car number below, just above the bottom of
the car side, equidistant from the
door and the ends. The word "Refrigerator" moved to the right
car side side below the letterboard
with the large herald (as described in the Roseman book)
below, also to the right of the door.
The former words "Express Refrigerator" and numbers were removed
from the lower right side.




Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Ed Hawkins
 

On Tuesday, September 20, 2005, at 09:32 PM, Randy wrote:

The main differences I can see between the Walthers & the Branchline
REA Express Reefers are

1. Different trucks
2. The roofs are shaped different, Walthers appears to be more rounded.
3. The ends are different. Where Walthers appear smooth, Branchlines
are ribbed.

This is going by the picture on Walthers website & the Branchline car
I have in front of me.

Branchline's pictures are on their website & match the car I have.

http://www.branchline-
trains.com/blueprint/expressreefers/express_reefers.htm
Randy Jones
Randy,
I think there's some confusion on what the intent of the subject matter
is. The subject was comparing the Broadway Limited vs. the Walthers
versions of the wood express refrigerator cars built by General
American Car Co. in the late 1920s to about 1930. These models are
supposed to be scale replicas of the same prototype car, thus the
geometry should be identical if done correctly. There can and should be
differences in appliances and such, due to upgrades and modifications
that were made over their service lives, including different types of
trucks.

Branchline's REA and ACL express refrigerator model is based on an
entirely different prototype car, which is a welded all-steel car built
by AC&F in 1947-48. Walthers makes another REA model that is based on a
riveted all-steel car built by GATC in 1955 and 1957. These two models
are supposed to be different.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: C&S steel boxcar details

Rupert and Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Mark

There is a photo on page 11 of Burlington Route Historical Society's Bulletin #7 - XM-32's - showing a painted post-war roof with large bare areas and a metal grating roofwalk, which was apparently fitted to all post war cars according to the caption. These cars were built at Havelock with #79-A trucks.

There is a builder's photo of #1500 taken on 25 July 1957, and a photo of the same car 11 years later. One of the captions confirms that equipment trust plates were riveted to the upper left corner of each side.

Hope this helps


Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@hotmail.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:58 AM
Subject: [STMFC] C&S, NKP steel boxcar details


Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some information on the following Colorado &
Southern and Nickel Plate steel boxcars.

First, C&S 1500-1799, 300 cars built 1957, class XM-32e. I need to
know:
1) What kind of roofwalks were they built with?
2) What is the build date (one photo looks like 4-57 HV)?
3) Were the roofs unpainted at delivery?
4) Were there trust plates mounted at the top of left-most side
panel?


Otto Perry movies

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I noticed Richard's comment that he was watching colour video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16mm movies of the 40's and 50's. Are these commercially available from some where? Digital, per chance?

Rob Kirkham


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Randy
 

The main differences I can see between the Walthers & the Branchline
REA Express Reefers are

1. Different trucks

2. The roofs are shaped different, Walthers appears to be more rounded.

3. The ends are different. Where Walthers appear smooth, Branchlines
are ribbed.

This is going by the picture on Walthers website & the Branchline car
I have in front of me.

Branchline's pictures are on their website & match the car I have.

http://www.branchline-
trains.com/blueprint/expressreefers/express_reefers.htm

Randy Jones
SLC UT


Re: canadian on line statistics

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

At 01:21 AM 9/20/05, you wrote:

Thanks for your thought on that Walt. But if you are correct, what is
number 2), "Home cars on Canadian Lines", and how does it differ from number
5? A riddle, wrapped in an enigma, etc. - Rob Kirkham
In my opinion, "Canadian owned foreign cars on home roads, 6,406" would probably be cars owned by CV, GT, GTW, CP/International of Maine etc.

Peter Bowers


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

"Express
Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated
from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the
lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below
is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.<

Then that would make the BLI good for prewar and the Walthers good for
postwar. Glad to know I purchased the right ones<VBG>. Also it means they
really aren't the same time period, just very close.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 20, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Jon Miller wrote:

I've just been looking at
some color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the
late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers<

Richard,
Another question from those color shots (or any for that matter), were
there two numbers or one on the side.
Jon, the lettering isn't always visible in the video (the REA cars were often quite grimy, but the evidence from the videos as well as from the still photos I have indicates that the practice of applying "Express Refrigerator" and the car number to the left of the doors only dated from before WW II. In all the postwar images I have where the lettering is visible, "Express Refrigerator" with the car number below is both left and right of the doors on both sides of the cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Those interested in this topic might like to peruse the article in _Railway Age_, Vol. 128 (Feb. 11, 1950), page 308, about the Roberval & Saguenay aluminum box car. It's interesting because it had an aluminum underframe (many American aluminum box cars and reefers had steel underframes). The aluminum was provided by Alcan. In the article, there is a photo of the underframe, and it's obvious that much deeper bolster and cross-bearer shapes provided the needed increase in stiffness to compensate for the lower elastic modulus of aluminum.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompson@signaturepress.com


Re: BLI vs. Walthers express reefers

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I've just been looking at
some color video transcriptions of Otto Perry 16 mm movies made in the
late '40s and early '50s in which there numerous REA express reefers<

Richard,
Another question from those color shots (or any for that matter), were
there two numbers or one on the side.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Aluminum Freight Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Manfred Lorenz wrote:
What kind of aluminum is used in car construction?
In the late 1940s, the aluminum cars were mostly built of 65S, what we now call 6065, a heat-treatable alloy with moderate strength and very good corrosion resistance.

I have often encountered the stuff that is used in window frames. Which
looks and feels shabby and weak. Aluminum alloy (dur-aluminuim) I am
more used to in widows and othe household items is kind of hard and
stiff. I think with added silicium and others ingredients.
Manfred, the stiffness (elastic modulus) does NOT depend on composition. It is very close to identical for ALL aluminum alloys. Perhaps you are confusing strength with stiffness.
There are much stronger alloys than 6065 in both the 2000 and 7000 series of alloys. The original Duralumin was a 2000-series alloy (as we would term it today). One potential problem with these alloys is that as you make them stronger, their corrosion resistance tends to plummet. The PFE aluminum cars used 24S (now called 2024) for structural parts, but not in a maximum strength condition, I'm sure for corrosion reasons.

What kind of properties does that harder variety have? Would it be
useable in car construction? The weak window stuff seems to fult even
when looked at hard, so I guess not something one would want to have in
structural members?
Windows and other architectural trim aluminum is traditionally 6063, a fairly soft alloy that is easy to fabricate, especially by extrusion, and has good corrosion resistance. Strength is indeed pretty low. I would not want to use it even for side sheets on a freight car. Today there is an impressive range of alloys available in aluminum that could provide good combinations of strength and corrosion resistance; but as I said, not much you can do about the stiffness.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompson@signaturepress.com

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