William

The "median center" for the U.S. population has moved steadily
westwards from Indiana to Illinois in my lifetime. So your theory
of the population being concentrated to the northeast is wrong.

INCOME however, is not so evenly distributed, and the center of
gravity of that is probably a couple hundred miles east of the
population median point, and somewhat north as well. But even
that kind of thinking only takes you so far. Irv Athearn chose
mostly western prototypes, I think, because that's what he saw
every day...

Tim O.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson

<rhendrickson@o...>

wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded

styrene

"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers,

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this - especially given
some list members obsession with correct terminology - but
there is no such thing as a Pfaulder milk "reefer" -- or even
refrigerator car. They are, in fact, tank cars (says so on the side).

Hey they have two tanks, does that mean they're the bovine
equivalent of a two dome tank car???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, there were a bunch of reasons I decided to do a milk
car while I was at InterMountain -- primarily because the
18-20,000 folks who showed up at the Springfield show
demonstrated an overwhelming interest in northeastern
railroads -- especially New England railroads, not those western
lines like the NYC, PRR, or B&O . . . and just think of the reaction
of the eastern folks when we mentioned a Santa Fe stock car . . .
you'd think I was confiscating lolly pops . . .

From what I understand both the milk car and stock car are
selling well, which creates money to pay for the company's next
tooling project which may be a car appropriate for those Indian
country lines . . . or another car closer to the hearts of those back
east. Fortunately I don't have to pick them anymore -- just buy
them -- or not . . ..

Marty McGuirk

Guyz,

The NH had the same problems with leaking valves on car loads of alcohol shipped from Canada to Old Mister Boston distilling. The B&A didn't have that problem with S S Pierce, the wine car was inside! Points of interest.

Fred Freitas

The small UP shop stencils can be found here:
http://www.microscale.com/decals/HO_scale/87489.jpg
http://www.microscale.com/decals/HO_scale/87494.jpg

The NYC System triangles in -black- can be found here
http://www.microscale.com/decals/HO_scale/87702.jpg
and also on some CDS sets.

The NYC System triangles in -white- can be found in
Mark Vaughan's P&E, NYC stock car, and IHB box car sets,
and also in several CDS NYC/P&LE dry transfer sets. The
P&E box car set has six triangles, enough for 3 cars.

This likely is less an issue with geography than one of perception, BUT, if one takes a look at election time, when it is fairly obvious which states have the most electoral votes and therefor the population, you just might discover that a state not in California, not in the northeast and not in Texas and having the second largest city has a fairly large population. And you might discover that certain other states in that same region, commonly known as the "midwest" also have large populations. You might also discover that Florida has a fairly good population. Of course, to some, Pennsylvania is in the midwest, and so is Ohio. To others, Colorado is. Makes a large region. But I digress.

The reason that the Northeast has the interest in models is that the railroads of the time period were overwhelmingly the largest in the Northeast. As the by now well known box car index and ratio shows, just PRR X-29's and NYC box cars by themselves made up a majority of the fleet. The operations were a lot more interesting. The steel industry was a much more lively and dispersed concern. The auto industry was much more concentrated. And, perhaps moire importantly, at that time, there were more than 4 major railroads.
The other major contributing factor is the availability of photos due to the wealth of photographers. And the closeness of photographers to subjects. You didn't have to travel a couple of hundred miles to reach a different railroad. Variety was far moire available than if you lived, say, in Sacramento. Even having the traction companies and short lines, they certainly weren't photographed to the degree you'd find in, say Albany. So, just like the RGS sees far more modelers than the C&S in narrow gauge, the Northeast sees more models due to the availability of images.

As far as parochialism, it typically goes both ways. I know a lot of New Yorkers who have the famous image of New York with Indian country to the west. I also know a lot of westerners who say that there is nothing worth seeing or modeling east of I-25 (I know, I used to be one of them). Of course, not to get to a wholly off topic bent again - but I know a lot of westerners who would refuse to go to Springfield due to the weather. Parochialism rears its head in many forms. If more westerners went where the manufacturers were, they might just find them willing to make more models of western themed equipment. I know of two manufactures right now who are looking for a "western" resin freight car project. They are in the East. Now, on the one hand, they could certainly go west, and in one case they will. In the other, it isn't going to happen due to time and/or physical restraints.


At 07:20 PM 9/22/2005, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Bob Webber

Rich,

Bruce is taking his "lightning medication" on MD's orders. Now, how 'bout we cut the end off a shallow end tank car, shape it to fit over a Bowser 0-6-0 mechanism, then add the cab from same. Done- one fireless cooker, short build form. The deliver on a HD flat.

Fred Freitas

On Sep 21, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Andreas Kühnpast wrote:

....Would wine have been sent in barrels in reefers or would it have
been transported in tank cars?

Both, depending on what the consignee wanted. Relatively small lots of
several different wines would have gone in barrels in refrigerator cars
(which weren't iced, or at least weren't iced much, since the objective
was to maintain a constant "cellar temperature" around ±60° F). Even
the separate compartments in a six compartment wine tank car held more
than 1,000 gals. each, and that's a LOT of wine. Relatively few
consignees were in a position to have bulk wine shipped in such large
quantities.

Richard Hendrickson

On Sep 22, 2005, at 12:08 PM, Walter M. Clark wrote:

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Such broad-brush generalizations almost always miss the mark, as they
do here. Walter is assuming that northeastern modelers only model
northeastern railroads, which is far from true; many members of this
list who live in the northeast model western railroads (e.g. Tim
O'Connor). Conversely many who live out west model eastern lines (e.g.
Greg Martin). So the issue isn't where modelers live but, regardless
of where they live, which railroads make their hearts beat fonder.

In fact, model manufacturers have, by now, a whole lot of experience
with which railroads have strong followings among modelers and which
ones don't, and that experience factors heavily into the choices they
make of prototypes to model. Anyone in their sales departments will
tell you that, if it's painted and lettered for the Pennsy or the Santa
Fe, it will sell like gangbusters, whether it's an accurate model or
not. Other formerly large and important RRs seem to score high on the
boredom scale, for some reason; examples include New York Central,
Louisville & Nashville, and almost all of the RRs in the south and
southeast (and before devotees of those RRs write angry responses to
this observation, let me point out that those aren't my personal
judgments, just what I'm told by people in the industry about their
sales figures).

As for parochialism, there may be plenty of that in the northeast but
it's also rampant in the south, midwest, southwest, northwest, far
west, etc. There are a lot of modelers out there in all parts of North
America who will tell you that, for example, because they model the
Santa Fe or the Atlantic Coast Line, they're not the least bit
interested in freight cars owned by the Pennsy, B&O, or IC, to say
nothing of the Canadian RRs or any of the smaller RRs like the Rutland,
Birmingham Southern, or SP&S. Never mind that there's ample
documentation showing that cars from all of the above ran in
interchange on the Santa Fe and the ACL during the steam era.

Those of us who subscribe to lists like this one tend to forget that a
majority of those who buy model freight cars have never quite gotten
over their early experience with tinplate toy trains and tend to be
influenced less by prototypical accuracy than by a fondness for odd
road names (Ann Arbor; Quanah, Acme & Pacific; Bangor & Aroostook),
garish P/L schemes, and a host of other motivations we know not of and,
in some cases, can't even imagine. That's slowly changing as prototype
modeling moves more into the hobby's mainstream, but it's still a fact
that manufacturers ignore at their peril.

Given the unpredictable vagaries of the model railroad market place,
it's astonishing how much good stuff (and how little junk) we're
getting these days, with more on the way. Even "conversation pieces"
like Pfaudler milk cars and, quite possibly, somewhere down the road,
six compartment wine tank cars.

Richard Hendrickson

On Sep 22, 2005, at 4:27 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:

Drilling a hole in the bottom of a tank car without a ready source of
electricity and a very good drill and bit does sound a little suspicious....

Especially when it was a heavily insulated car with a steel jacket and 2"-3" of insulation on the outside of the tank plus a thick steel bottom sheet with a glass lining inside. Aside from which the wine that was shipped in bulk wasn't very alcoholic (alcohol content increases with barrel aging) and didn't taste very good, so the results wouldn't have been, to say the least, disappointing. I agree with Tony that this and similar tales can be relegated to the waste bin entitled "urban myths."

Richard Hendrickson

On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:31 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Jack Burgess wrote:

Drilling a hole in the bottom of a tank car without a ready source of
electricity and a very good drill and bit does sound a little
suspicious....

Yes, especially with the insulating jacket over a 7/16" solid
steel shell.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

I could be done if you had the right tools but I doubt that they would be available in the yard. But the one in Emporia Ks, I saw it. The Eastbound lead job had cut it out as a BO and the carmen were working on it to stop the leak. Se we got some wine from it and they finaly got it stopped. Fun night though.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.

Remember also that in the time frame of this list, industrial
activity was much more concentrated in the Northeast than it is any
more. John Nehrich has commented eloquently on this, from the
opposite perspective: wishing to model the Northeast with its
industrial base still vigorous.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...>
wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...>

wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson

<rhendrickson@o...>

wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded

styrene

"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are

entirely

useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western

RRs, why

> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson

Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars

like

the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout

the

country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of

the

continental US and note where the largest areas of light

concentration

are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in

the

northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very

parochial

in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi

and

north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi

and

SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those

times

when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded styrene

"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are

entirely

useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why

> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson

Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those times
when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt

This is getting ridiculous. PEBKAC means "problem exists between
keyboard AND chair." I should stop posting and only read.

Walt

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...> wrote:

Hey, I don't care one hoot about new freight car models of very

limited interest since I'll

certainly not live long enough to build, detail, correct, paint, and

decal the hundreds of

plastic and resin kits I already have in addition to researching the

prototype, publishing RP

CYC, watching my train videos, finishing my basement, wiring the

overhead lighting

system, building the benchwork, laying and detailing the track,

painting the backdrop,

wiring the signal system, building the structures, perfecting the

scenery, painting and

decaling the brass locos, freight cars, and passenger cars, cleaning

my airbrush, and

running freight and passenger trains in a prototypical fashion on

the darn thing. Oh, I

also what to read my hundreds of books on military history and build

my military models.

Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah, sleeping and eating. Despite

taking vitamins, losing a

little weight, eating better, and getting regular checkups, I seem

to be falling badly behind

here! Does heaven (hell?) allow model railroading???

How's that for being the skunk at the tea party????

Pat Wider

Pat,

Sounds to me like you're bored. Maybe you should take up knitting or
some other hobby you can do with your hands.

I was born in August 1949. As you can see from my comment in my
signature block below my railroad (totally hypothetical, btw) is set
slightly less than eight years before I was born, so I'll never get
started on any of that stuff you mentioned, much less have the time to
finish.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
<snip a whole bunch of stuff> If we can get injection-molded styrene

"conversation pieces" like Pfaudler milk reefers, which are entirely
useless to modelers of southern, southwestern, and western RRs, why

> not six compartment wine tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson

Richard, and everyone else,

I wonder if the reason we get only northeastern prototype cars like
the Pfaudler milk reefers and not cars that were seen throughout the
country like wine tank cars, and others, is because:

1. Except for California and Texas the states with the highest
population (for example, look at any nighttime satelite photo of the
continental US and note where the largest areas of light concentration
are), and therefore potential modelers (market for models) is in the
northeast; and

2. List population excepted, many northeasterners are very parochial
in their attitudes and really don't care much about anything that
might break through their "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
north of the Ohio is doesn't matter" attitute.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Point 2 should say in part "if it is from west of the Mississippi and
SOUTH of the Ohio IT doesn't matter"... This was one of those times
when I read what I wanted to say when I proofed the message. Oh,
well, another PEBKAC (problem exists between keyboard a chair).

Walt

Jack Burgess wrote:

Drilling a hole in the bottom of a tank car without a ready source of
electricity and a very good drill and bit does sound a little suspicious....

Yes, especially with the insulating jacket over a 7/16" solid steel shell.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Drilling a hole in the bottom of a tank car without a ready source of
electricity and a very good drill and bit does sound a little suspicious....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Bruce Brantner wrote:

There is a story of one of the tank cars headed for
the Gallo Winery sitting in a rr yard in Chicago. One
of the workers in the yard dilled a hole up into the
tank car to get at the Brandy. After he got as much
Brandy as he wanted, he walked away leaving the hole
unplugged. Needless to say he was fired and the tank
car emptied its contents on the tracks.

Bruce, there are suspiciously many of these tales of wine cars floating around, and that's often a sign of an emerging urban legend. Like most such stories, it's always about "a guy I know," or "a guy told me about a friend," or "a guy heard this at work," etc.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@e...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@i...> wrote:
<snip>

Bill,

<snip>It is a stencil with the painting information: such as the

manufacturer use, the date, etc. <snip>

I possibly have the raw material to make decals as I have copied
this information from probably over 100 cars, mostly box cars, from
my field observations made in the 1960s. I have examples for cars
last painted in 1955 and 1956. <snip>

Just last evening I was looking at some Xerox copies of M-55 boxcars
someone kindly sent me and it looks like there may be a start date
just after WWI when the B&O actually began to apply this stencil.
<snip>

It would be a nice addition for lettering B&O cars for the 1950s
<snip>.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Bob Witt

Bob, did you mean to say the lettering started just after WWI or WWII?
Your comment that "(i)t would be a nice addition for lettering B&O
cars for the 1950s" leads me to think WWII, but since I have one of
these cars and am modeling before WWII I need clarification.

Thanks,

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Yes, it should be WWII. I will need more photos to narrow the actual
start date.

Bob Witt

Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...> wrote:

On Sep 22, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Bill Welch wrote:

I will nudge Ted to consider this little detail decal. It makes the
most sense to combine this with other desireable little decal details
of a similar nature. More ideas would be appreciated form others I am
sure.

Here are a couple of other suggestions.

The triangle repaint symbol (lower left corner of car sides) applied by
the New York Central system

The unusually shaped repack stencils (with curved top line) used by the
Missouri Pacific, Western Pacific, and probably some other RRs.

The Union Pacific's similarly shaped built/rebuilt stencils.

Few, if any, decal sets include any of these.

Richard Hendrickson

The Reading had a similar stencil in a "box" that looked like a "badge".

Bob Witt

Hey, I don't care one hoot about new freight car models of very limited interest since I'll
certainly not live long enough to build, detail, correct, paint, and decal the hundreds of
plastic and resin kits I already have in addition to researching the prototype, publishing RP
CYC, watching my train videos, finishing my basement, wiring the overhead lighting
system, building the benchwork, laying and detailing the track, painting the backdrop,
wiring the signal system, building the structures, perfecting the scenery, painting and
decaling the brass locos, freight cars, and passenger cars, cleaning my airbrush, and
running freight and passenger trains in a prototypical fashion on the darn thing. Oh, I
also what to read my hundreds of books on military history and build my military models.
Did I leave anything out? Oh yeah, sleeping and eating. Despite taking vitamins, losing a
little weight, eating better, and getting regular checkups, I seem to be falling badly behind
here! Does heaven (hell?) allow model railroading???

How's that for being the skunk at the tea party????

Pat Wider