On Sep 23, 2:48pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers

A few of us held
our noses, bought Trix box cars, and replaced the roofs because they're
the only otherwise accurate models of UP ACR steel box cars ever
offered in HO scale.

Plastic. You left out the words "injection-molded plastic". This is
unrelated to the point you were trying to make (and made quite well).
Nonetheless, I believe Sunshine has ACR box cars in HO scale resin.

Regards,

-Jeff

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On Sep 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?

Elden, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Almost all of us who are currently active modelers of the steam era formed our preferences about the railroads and regions we model decades ago, when the RRs we model actually existed and we had direct personal experience with them. The market for steam era freight car models consists largely of aging gents who are nostalgic about an increasingly remote past. Almost all of the (relatively few) younger guys who enter the hobby for the first time these days are modeling either the current railroad scene or the railroads they remember from their youth in the '80s and '90s.

As for the historical societies, do they play a role in influencing modeling decisions? Sure, they do. One of the main reasons the Pennsy, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, etc. are popular RRs with modelers is that their historical societies are strong and effective and produce first rate publications. The NYC historical society, on the other hand, has been dominated for years and years by a handful of aged elitists whose main objective seems to have preventing anyone else from having access to historical photos and documentation about the NYC. In that environment, prototypically accurate modeling of the NYC is a difficult and frustrating endeavor, as Jeff English and others can tell you from personal experience.

Richard Hendrickson

On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:57 AM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

A big reason why I often dispute the "conventional wisdom" of
manufacturers in regards to road names is because their sales
(or lack thereof) are often a result of their own mistakes or poor
choices....[an] example would be a Union Pacific B-50-24 box car
painted as a Rutland PS-1! Did the Rutland fans swoon? They did
not. So now I'm sure Trix thinks "Oh, nobody wants to buy Rutland
freight cars!"

Tim, you're missing the main point of the ill-fated Trix/Märklin
venture into the North American market. Even when correctly painted
and lettered for the Union Pacific, a box car model with an incorrect
roof and an outrageously inflated price won't sell. A few of us held
our noses, bought Trix box cars, and replaced the roofs because they're
the only otherwise accurate models of UP ACR steel box cars ever
offered in HO scale. Most other modelers stayed away in droves,
especially from the models with bogus paint and lettering. And what
Trix seems to have concluded from this experience is that the stupid
Americans have no appreciation for superior German design and
engineering. All of which tells us (including other model railroad
manufacturers) nothing useful about the realities of the marketplace.

Richard Hendrickson

Tim Gilbert wrote:

You are no different from most modelers of freight operations - too many
home road boxcars. An attitude that I, Ben Hom and others are trying to
change.

This makes me wonder why, in the early 1950s, the Northwest lumber shippers repeatedly complained to the ICC (as liberally covered in Railway Age) that their local railroads, including SP, did not provide enough home-road box cars, but relied excessively on foreign box cars. Comment?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:

Bill, if I were you I wouldn't be in the market for a wine tank car,
either. And the same is true for many other modelers (Jared Harper
comes immediately to mind, who models the Santa Fe's Alma branch,

also

in Kansas).

You've got that right Richard. Wine tank cars on the Alma branch are a
lot less likely than N&W hoppers on Mike Brock's prototype.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA

Does anyone make 50's era decals or transfers for SLRX cars? Or
does Sunshine make a kit? One 4000 series car shows up in a photo of
the Milwaukee's "Roller Coaster Track" from early 50's. Considering
that Schlitz and AB were competitors, either the Milwaukee brewery was
catering their business parties with "Brand X", or they were making
good use of a homeward bound empty, even if it DID represent a
competitor.
I've looked in Champ, MS, Oddballs, CDS, etc., and can't find a
set. I don't have the catalog from Clover House, though.

Thanks,
Phil Buchwald

Roger Robar wrote:

You just had to say that didn't you Tim, <VBG> .... Roger Robar

Roger,

You are no different from most modelers of freight operations - too many home road boxcars. An attitude that I, Ben Hom and others are trying to change.

Tim Gilbert

Justin Kahn wrote:

Second, this trade flourished during Prohibition, when heads of households
were permitted by law to make a certain quantity (I forget the numbers now)

" limited" to 250 gallons per household per year . . . enough to hold many of us . . .

While home wine-making surely continued after, say, 1940, it was so
labor-intensive that few other than traditionalists or hobbyists found it
worthwhile.

Well, the trade remained of sufficient volume that at the outset of WW II, the ODT found it helpful to ban the existing practice of peddling wine grapes out of reefers in the Northeast (thus delaying their return as empties).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

There is a Peterbilt plant here in Denton TX that is owned by the PACCAR conglomerate, which one of our members, who works there, confirms is the successor to PC&F, so perhaps PC&F records are still in existence within the corporate organization.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

Subject: Re: Pacific Car & Foundry Builders Photos

In this topic, does anyone recall a soon to be finished book on FGE, that was explained as being the size & scope of the PFE research volume by Thompson, Church, and Jones??

Fred Freitas

I am curious to know if anyone on the list has any "definitive"
information on the disposition of the Builder's photos files from
Pacific Car & Foundry. A gift of 5 photos of Western Fruit & Fruit
Growers subjects leaves me wanting more and I wonder if PCF's photos
survived its demise in 1988.

Bill Welch

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On Sep 23, 2005, at 10:46 AM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Couldn't a six-compartment tank car make as many as six deliveries
to customers? I forget the name for this type of tarriff but I think that
cars could make multiple stops to drop partial cargos. So if there were
a small bottler in Gridley who buys wine in 1,000 gallon lots (enough
for 1,000 large jugs of wine), then that might work... If you think about
it, a small town of 1,000 people on average consumes somewhere
around that amount of wine every year.

Tim O'Connor

Sorry but when I was a clerk on the UPRR you were allowed 2 stops en- route. You paid the freight on the whole car to the finial stop and a stop fee for each stop.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end to end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them.

Regarding the NYC, it is rather mysterious. Certainly modeling the mainline
of the NYC in the steam era would be a daunting task -- with a hundred trains
a day or more, and at least half of them passenger trains! I went to college
right near the Michigan Central tracks (which were PC, and quickly become
Conrail) and found the scenery bucolic, the traffic interesting and varied, the
pace a bit more relaxed that you'd find on the NYC water level route... Is
this wonderful line not modeled, or is it just that those modelers don't write
articles for magazines? I dunno. I do know quite a few Conrail modelers, and
I have done several Conrail models too, and plan to do more. Around here,
we still call it the "B&A" and many people still recall the glory days of steam
and streamliners between Boston & Albany... and my favorite railfanning
spot in this area is Selkirk and the Mohawk River valley. (Have only been
back once since CSXT took over... ugh!)

Tim "closet Conrail fan" O'Connor

Dear Andreas
Several possibilities occur to me: I would think bulk shipments of grapes for winemaking probably peaked during the 1920's, owing both to a decline in significant numbers after that of Italians and other ethnic groups who emigrated directly from areas where home winemaking was common (the highest numbers of immigrants from eastern and southern Europe entered during the decades immediately before WWI, after which immigration restrictions began to seriously limit their entry). Second and third generation ethnics would probably have been much less likely to produce home-made wine.
Second, this trade flourished during Prohibition, when heads of households were permitted by law to make a certain quantity (I forget the numbers now) for domestic use; commercial production of wine was essential illegal from 1919 through 1933, when Franklin Roosevelt took office and encouraged repeal of a bad (because unworkable) Constitutional amendment.
While home wine-making surely continued after, say, 1940, it was so labor-intensive that few other than traditionalists or hobbyists found it worthwhile. And I think beer traffic was always considerably greater than wine (Americans generally always being more beer-drinkers than oenophiles), although someone else would have to dig out statistics to prove or disprove that.
It is interesting that you discovered a firm bottling wine under their house label (I think it safe to say that this represented the lower-end of the market) in Vermont; however great their trade in a housebrand (and I think it was probably not all that great), as either Tony or Richard suggested, a real wine car contains a LOT of wine.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

I have found out that a former customer of "my shortline", Vermont's Barre & Chelsea,
was also involved in a similar kind of activity: Calmont Beverage Co. in Barre, VT
started importing wine from California in 1941 and bottled it in Vermont. They
obviously were the first company to do so in Vermont.

The company website (www.calmontbeverage.com/index.htm) states: "... came up with the
idea to bring barreled wine to Vermont, via rail, and bottle it here under the
Calmont brand name (a contraction of California/Vermont)." Would wine have been sent
in barrels in reefers or would it have been transported in tank cars?

In the "Barre & Chelsea Industrial Guide" issued in August 1953 Calmont Beverage is
listed as having a B&C spur track and the main commodity received was "malt
beverages" (i.e. beer). Could this be an indication that (bulk) wine transport had
stopped by that date? Or was it just an indication of more important beer traffic?

In the past we had been discussing grape shipments to Barre, VT for DIY wine making.
When would these shipments have ended, when the bulk shipment of wine to Vermont
started in 1941? Or did wine (and grappa!) making in Vermont communities with a high
percentage of Italians (like South Ryegate) continue after that date?

Andreas Kuehnpast

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Tim and folks;

Actually, several manufacturers are asking. We even put in some "plugs"
for many of the cars that have been discussed on "want lists" over the
past several years. I happen to agree that we are reaching the point
that they will do signature cars and others that have less than
extensive numbers of RRs using them, as I am sure most of the more
"popular" cars have been exhausted.

Don't underestimate the power you have in writing or contacting these
folks. If you don't ask, you will not get it....

Elden

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?

As an example of a strange situation, what is your take on the reasons
why the NYC has so few folks (and thank goodness, some of the few of
them are active on this list) actively pursuing NYC layouts, product
introductions, and information dissemination efforts? Or is this a
verboten subject? No, I am certainly not an NYC-hater! I am just
mystified.

While some would say that a RR like the Santa Fe has a large following
because of the beauty of their paint jobs, equipment, and locale, it
does not explain everything. And, it certainly does not explain the
popularity of the PRR (come on; Brunswick Green versus Lightning
Stripes?). Is this related to the historical societies? What is the
story?

Elden Gatwood

A big reason why I often dispute the "conventional wisdom" of
manufacturers in regards to road names is because their sales
(or lack thereof) are often a result of their own mistakes or poor
choices. For example, Proto 2000 did some SD9 SP units in a
very light gray color, and they didn't sell well. Duh! And then it
was 3 or more years before they finally did a Tiger Stripes version
which sold out fast. Duh again! Or another example would be a
Union Pacific B-50-24 box car painted as a Rutland PS-1! Did the
Rutland fans swoon? They did not. So now I'm sure Trix thinks
"Oh, nobody wants to buy Rutland freight cars!"

Athearn these days seems to be the most receptive to making
corrections before producing models, based on getting appropriate
and timely feedback on upcoming models. What a concept -- let
the customers TELL you exactly what they want, and then produce
it for them.

Tim O'Connor

Doesn't P2K make a 50'double door, end door box car? And if so, how
close is it to an X41a?

regards,

Andy Miller

Ben - Our detail part 1990, sold separately, is a reverse end for a taller car. - Al

I have uploaded a file in the STMPH list of one of my UCR GS
Gondolas.
These cars have been scratch bashed from the Details Associates
composite GS Gondola. This particular car does not have the doors in
the floor as I was trying to find a way to speed up the process to
create a small fleet of these cars. The two other cars I have built
have drop doors in place but took substantially longer to build and
from the side, the doors don't show. I am currently working on four
more without the drop doors. The photo location is:
http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oEI0Q3beP-
aNEEiTUsjFU2CRPYLsU15i9SxEIxsBadLBo_bf1sOiHc4ivVff
o7m2LIJ1yzHdjJ7uPEAZq
ecqQEYAdOpqyYod/P1010072.JPG

Shay Stark

Two quick reflections: although one can become fascinated with the exotic (I was an RGS fan for many years, and I still dabble in both Maine two-foot and British prototype), most of us do get our tastes and preferences established early, so it is not coincidental that I model northeastern prototype of the golden age, having grown up in New York State; nonetheless, I have, since leaving college, lived in Tennessee, Iowa, South Carolina, Texas (twice now), Virginia, Alaska, and two tours in the Far East. Granted I have had to relocate more often than many people, the last generation or two in the US have become quite mobile, so where someone currently lives need have no connection to what she or he models.
As to whether lettering beer cars for dairy products to discourage pilferage is an urban legend, all I can say is that those with a taste for mood-altering beverages are a persistent lot: witness the ingenuity of those in correctional facilities over the years to generate some truly nasty stuff, and the older tales of those who were desperate enough to try sterno and methyl alcohol. And that the issue communion wine for the USAF (at least going on twenty years ago) was dreadful; an older chaplain explained that indeed it was made that way to discourage overconsumption by unauthorized personnel at remote locations. Grape juice was preferable, even for high-churchmen.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

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On Sep 22, 11:50pm, Mike Brock wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops

I have to wonder if some of this developed during the 1970/80 brass

steam

loco market analysis.

Mike,

I have heard similar descriptions of what roadnames sell (and
which don't) from a STMFC manufacturer. In fact, we were both in Cocoa
Beach at the time. The point is that even current data shows that there
are some roads that have a loyal following, and others that don't. The
size of the prototype is not necessarily a good indicator of the
popularity, and manufacturers will help themselves if they keep that in
mind.

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533