Date   

Re: Soo line boxcars

Ed Hawkins
 

On Friday, September 23, 2005, at 04:13 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

How long did the Soo Line "dollar sign" (ok, probably not the right
term,
but since I was a kid, I've called it the dollar sign scheme) scheme
last
into the mid-late 1950's? I know the larger "SOO LINE" started to
appear in
the mid-fifties wondering how quickly older cars were repainted.
Brian,
I'm pretty sure this subject has been discussed before on this list.
The billboard SOO LINE began to appear in the very early 1950s. An
early example is a George Sisk photo of box car 137190, built new
11-51. A later example of a car still having the "dollar sign" emblem
is a Paul Dunn photo of box car 136802 with a reweigh date of 1958.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: PC&F

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Justin Kahn wrote:
There is a Peterbilt plant here in Denton TX that is owned by the PACCAR
conglomerate, which one of our members, who works there, confirms is the
successor to PC&F, so perhaps PC&F records are still in existence within the
corporate organization.
As one can quickly discover via Google, PACCAR is indeed still in existence. I have checked with my friend, now retired from Peterbilt, but he believes the stored stuff is still in the Seattle area.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Attitudes of kit producers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
. . . I sent them some general information, a copy of the AC&F
drawing in the CBCycs, and scans of a whole bunch of photos. I didn't
hear anything more for several weeks, and then I got a peremptory
e-mail from an R&D guy in Germany demanding detailed drawings at once,
as he was traveling to China in a week to contract for the production
of the models.
Ah, the old classic "keep 'em in the dark and throw BS on 'em . . ."
I'm forced to confess I know a few Germans who are so much in the mold of Central Casting Germans that I occasionally wonder if they are putting me on. Of course that's how these stereotypes get started.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Home Road Boxcars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
RAILWAY AGE would publish almost any shipper complaint. Was there a
significant difference between SP or other Northwestern road boxcars and
those owned by foreign roads?
It was, of course, before the ICC, so it wasn't just "any complaint." The ones I was recently reading were complaining that traffic had increased on all the roads serving the Northwest, but they had increased their car fleets much less, and the result, as they saw it, was increasing delays in car supply. I didn't read the statistics too carefully, but SP was typical of the numbers shown, with something like a 6% increase in cars over the time period quoted, and 30% increase in traffic. What interested me was that they wanted less reliance on foreign-road box cars, presumably only because the home road could control its cars and (in their minds) get them the cars they needed. (Possibly also a bit of the attitude PFE encountered, which was that most foreign reefers were in much poorer condition than PFE cars).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Attitudes of kit producers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Friday, September 23, 2005, at 04:04 PM, bierglaeser wrote:

The fellow at Märklin who developed the Märklin/Trix freight cars is
a friend of mine.  He just totally doesn't get it.  Nice guy but not
a clue.  Believe me, I've tried to wise him up as to where to go to
get accurate information.  I don't wish to malign a fine gentleman
but you all would be astounded to learn to whom Märklin went for the
information to do the UP box car.  Märklin/Trix is a toy manufacturer
and they can't think outside that box.

BTW, as far as the Germans know, apparently the UP is the only RR in
the US.
Gene,
I probably dealt with your friend when helping Trix with the AC&F Type
27 chlorine tank car. Being totally naive as to what would follow, I
energetically provided the company with prototype drawings from the
AC&F collection at the Museum of Transportation, many photographs, and
paint specs from the original bill of materials. After seeing the
pathetic excuse of a model that was ultimately created, I wrote a
letter stating they should quit pretending (and deceiving the buying
public) that they make scale models in HO and stick to making "toys."
Never again!
Ed's account is only part of the story. Before he became involved in
the research for the chlorine tank cars, I was asked to provide
information about these cars (sooner or later, I would have asked for
his help in any case, since he has ready access to the AC&F archives).
It was my understanding from the American Märklin/Trix reps that they
were still in the process of deciding whether to go forward with the
project, so I sent them some general information, a copy of the AC&F
drawing in the CBCycs, and scans of a whole bunch of photos. I didn't
hear anything more for several weeks, and then I got a peremptory
e-mail from an R&D guy in Germany demanding detailed drawings at once,
as he was traveling to China in a week to contract for the production
of the models. I decided at that point that I wanted no more to do
with it (a wise decision, as it turned out) and referred them to Ed
Hawkins. What happened after that is described above. Word of these
events has spread among those of us who commonly do research and
consulting for manufacturers, and by now I would be very surprised if
M/T could get any well qualified prototype researcher in North America
to do any work for them.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Cutting dies wrong first was: Attitudes of kit producers

tyesac@...
 

In a message dated 9/23/2005 11:30:04 PM Central Standard Time,
stefanelaine@yahoo.ca writes:
In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "bierglaeser" <bierglaeser@y...> wrote:
Märklin/Trix is a toy manufacturer...
Obviously a long standing issue in the hobby. The one piece of logic that
always eluded me was this; Since it costs about as much to cut a die incorrectly
as it does correctly, and, since many knowledgeable people have been willing
to provide accurate prototype information nearly gratis, why bother doing it
wrong?

I'm not talking about scale size compromising such as grab iron thickness,
but rather molded on blobs that are completely gross or misplaced or dimensions
that are WAY off. I can understand the economies of sharing some existing
parts, but, why cut the new parts wrong to begin with?

Reminds me of the old "Herman" poster the Apache YAH -64 project manager I
worked for had in his office. It's caption read "why can we never find time to
do it right the first time, but always find time to do it over again?"
Unfortunately in this hobby, the "do it over again" process rarely passes approval
of the bean counters.

The recent Trix entries are a good example of a recent outbreak of this
malady, an earlier example that comes to mind is the C&BT Shops SFRD ice reefers
with some serious dimensional errors. Thankfully IM choose to do the same
prototype dead-on correct. You can have one easy guess which one I have purchased
tens times more of.

Tom Casey


Re: Home Road Boxcars

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:

This makes me wonder why, in the early 1950s, the Northwest
lumber shippers repeatedly complained to the ICC (as liberally covered
in Railway Age) that their local railroads, including SP, did not
provide enough home-road box cars, but relied excessively on foreign
box cars. Comment?
In the Fall of 1947 when the shortage of boxcars was increased even more by the demands of the seasonal grain rush, gons, auto cars and stock cars were used for eastbound lumber loads over Sherman Hill from the Northwest.

RAILWAY AGE would publish almost any shipper complaint. Was there a significant difference between SP or other Northwestern road boxcars and those owned by foreign roads?

Tim Gilbert


Re: Wine Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 2:31 PM, buchwaldfam wrote:

Does anyone make 50's era decals or transfers for SLRX cars?
Yes. Clover House Set 9266-04.

Or does Sunshine make a kit?
Yes. Kit #24.28.

One 4000 series car shows up in a photo of
the Milwaukee's "Roller Coaster Track" from early 50's. Considering
that Schlitz and AB were competitors, either the Milwaukee brewery was
catering their business parties with "Brand X", or they were making
good use of a homeward bound empty, even if it DID represent a
competitor.
Not everyone in Milwaukee drank the local beer. A-B shipped beer to Milwaukee in SLRX cars, just as to other parts of the country, so the car in the photo was probably either delivering Budweiser to a Milwaukee distributor or en route home empty after having done so.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: UCR GS Gondola

ljack70117@...
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 7:17 PM, jaley wrote:

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFPH/files/P1010072.JPG

Regards,

-Jeff
Deputy Moderator, STMFC
Would the old Urich (sp) kit be equal to this car?
thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens


Re: UCR GS Gondola

jaley <jaley@...>
 

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFPH/files/P1010072.JPG

Regards,

-Jeff
Deputy Moderator, STMFC

On Sep 23, 7:09pm, ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UCR GS Gondola

On Sep 23, 2005, at 2:25 PM, shaystark wrote:

I have uploaded a file in the STMPH list of one of my UCR GS
Gondolas.
These cars have been scratch bashed from the Details Associates
composite GS Gondola. This particular car does not have the doors in
the floor as I was trying to find a way to speed up the process to
create a small fleet of these cars. The two other cars I have built
have drop doors in place but took substantially longer to build and
from the side, the doors don't show. I am currently working on four
more without the drop doors. The photo location is:
http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oEI0Q3beP-
aNEEiTUsjFU2CRPYLsU15i9SxEIxsBadLBo_bf1sOiHc4ivVff
o7m2LIJ1yzHdjJ7uPEAZq
ecqQEYAdOpqyYod/P1010072.JPG

Shay Stark
The URL does not work
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.





Yahoo! Groups Links





-- End of excerpt from ljack70117@adelphia.net
--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Soo line boxcars

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

How long did the Soo Line "dollar sign" (ok, probably not the right term,
but since I was a kid, I've called it the dollar sign scheme) scheme last
into the mid-late 1950's? I know the larger "SOO LINE" started to appear in
the mid-fifties wondering how quickly older cars were repainted.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: UCR GS Gondola

ljack70117@...
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 2:25 PM, shaystark wrote:

I have uploaded a file in the STMPH list of one of my UCR GS
Gondolas.
These cars have been scratch bashed from the Details Associates
composite GS Gondola. This particular car does not have the doors in
the floor as I was trying to find a way to speed up the process to
create a small fleet of these cars. The two other cars I have built
have drop doors in place but took substantially longer to build and
from the side, the doors don't show. I am currently working on four
more without the drop doors. The photo location is:
http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oEI0Q3beP-
aNEEiTUsjFU2CRPYLsU15i9SxEIxsBadLBo_bf1sOiHc4ivVff
o7m2LIJ1yzHdjJ7uPEAZq
ecqQEYAdOpqyYod/P1010072.JPG

Shay Stark
The URL does not work
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net
Shin: A device for finding furniture in the dark.


Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops

armprem
 

Richard,I don't think that is necessarily so.When I started in the hobby
most model railroaders were free lancing largely because the choices were
so very limited.Practically everyone had a Varney Dockside or a Mantua
Roundhouse Goat.John Allen influenced most of us.HO Monthly was a very
popular with most articles directed to free lancing.Few of us had much more
than a 4'X8' layout which also limited the size of the locomotives we were
likely to purchase.Like most modelers of that era the availability of a
greater variety of locomotives and rolling stock as well as acquiring more
room for larger layouts.The emergence of clubs like the RPI group had a
major influence on many model rails.
----- A major factor, not to be overlooked was the availability of a
plethora of reasonably priced models that made prototype modeling more
appealing and achievable.It was then when modelers tried to capture in
miniature what they had experienced at an earlier stage of their life.Armand
Premo Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops


On Sep 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?
Elden, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Almost all of us who
are currently active modelers of the steam era formed our preferences
about the railroads and regions we model decades ago, when the RRs we
model actually existed and we had direct personal experience with them.
The market for steam era freight car models consists largely of aging
gents who are nostalgic about an increasingly remote past. Almost all
of the (relatively few) younger guys who enter the hobby for the first
time these days are modeling either the current railroad scene or the
railroads they remember from their youth in the '80s and '90s.

As for the historical societies, do they play a role in influencing
modeling decisions? Sure, they do. One of the main reasons the
Pennsy, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, etc. are popular RRs with modelers
is that their historical societies are strong and effective and produce
first rate publications. The NYC historical society, on the other
hand, has been dominated for years and years by a handful of aged
elitists whose main objective seems to have preventing anyone else from
having access to historical photos and documentation about the NYC. In
that environment, prototypically accurate modeling of the NYC is a
difficult and frustrating endeavor, as Jeff English and others can tell
you from personal experience.

Richard Hendrickson





Yahoo! Groups Links









--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 9/22/05


Re: Attitudes of kit producers

bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

The fellow at Märklin who developed the Märklin/Trix freight cars is
a friend of mine. He just totally doesn't get it. Nice guy but not
a clue. Believe me, I've tried to wise him up as to where to go to
get accurate information. I don't wish to malign a fine gentleman
but you all would be astounded to learn to whom Märklin went for the
information to do the UP box car. Märklin/Trix is a toy manufacturer
and they can't think outside that box.

BTW, as far as the Germans know, apparently the UP is the only RR in
the US.

Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson
<rhendrickson@o...> wrote:
On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:57 AM, timboconnor@c... wrote:

A big reason why I often dispute the "conventional wisdom" of
manufacturers in regards to road names is because their sales
(or lack thereof) are often a result of their own mistakes or poor
choices....[an] example would be a Union Pacific B-50-24 box car
painted as a Rutland PS-1! Did the Rutland fans swoon? They did
not. So now I'm sure Trix thinks "Oh, nobody wants to buy Rutland
freight cars!"
Tim, you're missing the main point of the ill-fated Trix/Märklin
venture into the North American market. Even when correctly
painted
and lettered for the Union Pacific, a box car model with an
incorrect
roof and an outrageously inflated price won't sell. A few of us
held
our noses, bought Trix box cars, and replaced the roofs because
they're
the only otherwise accurate models of UP ACR steel box cars ever
offered in HO scale. Most other modelers stayed away in droves,
especially from the models with bogus paint and lettering. And
what
Trix seems to have concluded from this experience is that the
stupid
Americans have no appreciation for superior German design and
engineering. All of which tells us (including other model railroad
manufacturers) nothing useful about the realities of the
marketplace.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Attitudes of kit producers

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Sep 23, 2:48pm, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Attitudes of kit producers
A few of us held
our noses, bought Trix box cars, and replaced the roofs because they're
the only otherwise accurate models of UP ACR steel box cars ever
offered in HO scale.
Plastic. You left out the words "injection-molded plastic". This is
unrelated to the point you were trying to make (and made quite well).
Nonetheless, I believe Sunshine has ACR box cars in HO scale resin.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Attitudes of kit producers, was:Wine car ops

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 12:02 PM, Gatwood, Elden wrote:

Jeff, Richard, and all;

Is it your impression that those RRs that are developing and/or keeping
large followings are also those that have more RR-specific products
offered to them?

Is this a chicken and egg thing, or an egg and chicken thing?

Is it your impression that certain RRs are picking up more followers
while others seem to be stagnant? Why?

Is it your impression that the variety of RRs that folks are pursuing
seriously (i.e., as the "theme" for their layout) is dwindling?
Elden, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Almost all of us who are currently active modelers of the steam era formed our preferences about the railroads and regions we model decades ago, when the RRs we model actually existed and we had direct personal experience with them. The market for steam era freight car models consists largely of aging gents who are nostalgic about an increasingly remote past. Almost all of the (relatively few) younger guys who enter the hobby for the first time these days are modeling either the current railroad scene or the railroads they remember from their youth in the '80s and '90s.

As for the historical societies, do they play a role in influencing modeling decisions? Sure, they do. One of the main reasons the Pennsy, Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, etc. are popular RRs with modelers is that their historical societies are strong and effective and produce first rate publications. The NYC historical society, on the other hand, has been dominated for years and years by a handful of aged elitists whose main objective seems to have preventing anyone else from having access to historical photos and documentation about the NYC. In that environment, prototypically accurate modeling of the NYC is a difficult and frustrating endeavor, as Jeff English and others can tell you from personal experience.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Attitudes of kit producers

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Sep 23, 2005, at 11:57 AM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

A big reason why I often dispute the "conventional wisdom" of
manufacturers in regards to road names is because their sales
(or lack thereof) are often a result of their own mistakes or poor
choices....[an] example would be a Union Pacific B-50-24 box car
painted as a Rutland PS-1! Did the Rutland fans swoon? They did
not. So now I'm sure Trix thinks "Oh, nobody wants to buy Rutland
freight cars!"
Tim, you're missing the main point of the ill-fated Trix/Märklin
venture into the North American market. Even when correctly painted
and lettered for the Union Pacific, a box car model with an incorrect
roof and an outrageously inflated price won't sell. A few of us held
our noses, bought Trix box cars, and replaced the roofs because they're
the only otherwise accurate models of UP ACR steel box cars ever
offered in HO scale. Most other modelers stayed away in droves,
especially from the models with bogus paint and lettering. And what
Trix seems to have concluded from this experience is that the stupid
Americans have no appreciation for superior German design and
engineering. All of which tells us (including other model railroad
manufacturers) nothing useful about the realities of the marketplace.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Home Road Boxcars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote:
You are no different from most modelers of freight operations - too many
home road boxcars. An attitude that I, Ben Hom and others are trying to
change.
This makes me wonder why, in the early 1950s, the Northwest lumber shippers repeatedly complained to the ICC (as liberally covered in Railway Age) that their local railroads, including SP, did not provide enough home-road box cars, but relied excessively on foreign box cars. Comment?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: No wine tank cars on the Alma branch

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
Bill, if I were you I wouldn't be in the market for a wine tank car,
either. And the same is true for many other modelers (Jared Harper
comes immediately to mind, who models the Santa Fe's Alma branch,
also
in Kansas).
You've got that right Richard. Wine tank cars on the Alma branch are a
lot less likely than N&W hoppers on Mike Brock's prototype.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Wine Cars

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Does anyone make 50's era decals or transfers for SLRX cars? Or
does Sunshine make a kit? One 4000 series car shows up in a photo of
the Milwaukee's "Roller Coaster Track" from early 50's. Considering
that Schlitz and AB were competitors, either the Milwaukee brewery was
catering their business parties with "Brand X", or they were making
good use of a homeward bound empty, even if it DID represent a
competitor.
I've looked in Champ, MS, Oddballs, CDS, etc., and can't find a
set. I don't have the catalog from Clover House, though.

Thanks,
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:
The same was true of
the St. Louis Refrigerator Car Co., a wholly owned subsidiary of
Anheuser-Busch, whose cars were actually not reefers but insulated
box
cars with reefer doors and were used exclusively to ship beer in the
years before A-B built satellite breweries all over the country.

Richard Hendrickson

135481 - 135500 of 181233