estcbq@... wrote:

by all means--anything CBQ

Whoever you are, between 1940 and 1960, the percent of CB&Q-owned freight cars at home as a percent of Total Freight Cars on Line was above 50% in only six (1940-1942 & 1958-1960) of the 21 years. This percentage is a total. The percentage of CB&Q-owned boxcars on home rails as a percentage of total boxcars on the CB&Q was even less. Which means that that more foreign road boxcars were on the CB&Q than CB&Q's own boxcars.

Tim Gilbert

I'll do it, Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:

Bill McCoy wrote:

Tim, Were these the steel GAC - Pfaulder cars or the wood cars.

Did

they keep their Hood lettering? Any idea where the chocolate cars
operated?

There was a thread on the Milk trains group last July 24th (look

under

Eversweet) about the announced Athearn Eversweet milk reefers

GACX 969

and 977 that were apparently in service between Frost Proof, FL

and

Lyons, IL (Chicago). The consensus was real paint scheme but

mediocre

model. Wonder if Walthers will do this car? I model the SE 1949 -

1967

and want to justify a couple of milk reefers.

Bill,

Best check for answers with the Milk Trains Group for their

expertise.

My OJ-Hood info came from that group.

Tim Gilbert

Bill McCoy wrote:

Tim, Were these the steel GAC - Pfaulder cars or the wood cars. Did
they keep their Hood lettering? Any idea where the chocolate cars
operated?

There was a thread on the Milk trains group last July 24th (look under
Eversweet) about the announced Athearn Eversweet milk reefers GACX 969
and 977 that were apparently in service between Frost Proof, FL and
Lyons, IL (Chicago). The consensus was real paint scheme but mediocre
model. Wonder if Walthers will do this car? I model the SE 1949 - 1967
and want to justify a couple of milk reefers.

Bill,

Best check for answers with the Milk Trains Group for their expertise. My OJ-Hood info came from that group.

Tim Gilbert

Tim, Were these the steel GAC - Pfaulder cars or the wood cars. Did
they keep their Hood lettering? Any idea where the chocolate cars
operated?

There was a thread on the Milk trains group last July 24th (look under
Eversweet) about the announced Athearn Eversweet milk reefers GACX 969
and 977 that were apparently in service between Frost Proof, FL and
Lyons, IL (Chicago). The consensus was real paint scheme but mediocre
model. Wonder if Walthers will do this car? I model the SE 1949 - 1967
and want to justify a couple of milk reefers.

Bill McCoy
Jax

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@s...> wrote:

up4479 wrote:

Well we know that wine cars roamed around the country far and

wide.

How about liquid chocolate cars as in Baker's Chocolate? They had
regular tank cars and also used Phaudler "milk" cars. Their plant

was

in Boston but do we know how far west or south they roamed?

As the milk business by rail declined in the 1950's, Hood leased

some

GPEX "milk tank cars" to carry orange juice from Dunedin FL to

Boston.

Tim Gilbert

Did the Illinois Central operate any 40' quad hoppers during the steam era?
If so, what were their numbers, capacities, date of introduction etc?
What is the best starting point for a model?
Thank you all in advance
Richard White



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up4479 wrote:

Well we know that wine cars roamed around the country far and wide. How about liquid chocolate cars as in Baker's Chocolate? They had
regular tank cars and also used Phaudler "milk" cars. Their plant was
in Boston but do we know how far west or south they roamed?

As the milk business by rail declined in the 1950's, Hood leased some GPEX "milk tank cars" to carry orange juice from Dunedin FL to Boston.

Tim Gilbert

Well we know that wine cars roamed around the country far and wide.
How about liquid chocolate cars as in Baker's Chocolate? They had
regular tank cars and also used Phaudler "milk" cars. Their plant was
in Boston but do we know how far west or south they roamed?
Steve Solombrino

Ok guys...here it is. I'm a little late because I was out of town. First, a bit of explaination. This data was hand written on 5x7 note pad sheets by somebody in the Swift & Co traffic dept and given to the NKP. Each sheet has a stamp "received Nickel Plate Road, date, Frankfort, IND". I tried to use the abbreviations used on the sheets. Where "VAN" appears it refers to the PRR Vandalia lines with which the NKP had an interchange at the east end of the yard. These cars were taken directly to the interchange. The "xtown" indication refers, I believe, to where the load of raw beans originated. The beans apparently arrived at Swift in Frankfort in other cars and were processed into meal and sent on. All of the originating locations were local elevators, some on the NKP, some not. I guess the local elevator did not have milling capability and used Swift to sell bean meal. After I got into these particular lists I noticed that there many 27000 series NKP cars. During this time the NKP was rebuilding double sheathed cars into these cars at Frankfort so these loads were probably the first loads for these cars. The next time I will pick a different time to avoid this and get more interesting car numbers. The list is best viewed on the full screen.


DATE CAR LOAD ROUTING

6-2-48 NKP 27736 bean meal VAN-Goodrich Bro,Winchester,IN via PRR

NKP 16779 bean meal VAN-H D Shaw, Cedar Springs, MI via PRR
xClayton, IN
MILW 70853 bean meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson, IN
PRR 104426 bean meal VAN-Buhner Co, Louisville via PRR-B4
xCamden, IN
SHPX 7828 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via NKP/Buf-DLW

NATX 1227 bean oil Lever Bro, Edgewater, NJ via NKP/Buf-Erie-NYSW

NKP 27733 bean meal Gen Mills, Toledo, OH, via NKP-TT
xMichigantown, IN
6-3-48 GM&O 8468 bean meal VAN-Wooster Jct Mfg, Wooster, OH via PRR-B&O
xClayton, IN
NKP 27737 bean meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson
NKP 27738 bean meal VAN-Buhner Ferts, Seymour, IN via PRR-B&O
xFora, IN
SHPX 4021 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via NKP/Buf-DLW

6-4-48 GATX 21852 bean oil Procter&Gamble, Ivorydale, OH NKP/Indpls-NYC

NKP 27742 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY NKP-NYC
xKokomo
NKP 27732 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY NKP-NYC
xKokomo

6-7-48 IC 18954 meal VAN-Jackson Cty Farm Bureau Coop, Seymour, IN PRR-B&O

NKP 27742 bulk meal Parke-Pollard, Black Rock, NY NKP-NYC
xMichigantown
IC 20295 meal Foster Canning Co, Napoleon, OH, NKP-DTI
xTab, IN
NKP 13301 meal Acme Evans Co, Indianapolis-NKP

SHPX 8974 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via NKP/Buf-DLW

6-8-48 NKP 27740 meal VAN-Owasso Coal&Elevator, Owasso MI PRR-MC
xSummitville, IN stop off Jackson,MI,Mich Mills, GTW Dely Owasso
NKP 17659 meal Lafayette Co-op Elev, NKP
xAlexandria, IN
NKP 27745 meal Cooperative Mills, Buffalo, BC dely
xBennets-Noblesville-Cicero-Arcadia
NKP 27741 meal Blissfield Co-op, Blissfield, MI NKP-NYC

GATX 16139 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth, VA NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

6-9-48 CN 522526 meal VAN-H Van Patten Co, Allen, MI PRR-NYC
xBrazil, IN
MKT 79005 meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xManson
SHPX 20647 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via NKP/Buf-DLW

NKP 17310 meal Dayette Mills, Cooch, Del, NKP-PRR
xArcadia&Cicero
NKP 16920 meal United Gr. Co., Rossburg, OH NKP-NYC

6-10-48 IC 33626 meal VAN-Urbana Mills, Urbana, OH via PRR
xFlora, IN
KCS 18257 meal The Glidden Co, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27752 meal R S Altman, Troy, OH NKP/Lima-B&O

NKP 13370 meal R S Altman, Troy, OH NKP/Lima-B&O

6-11-48 NH 34114 meal The Glidden Co, Indianapolis NKP

SHPX 8932 bean oil E F Drew Co,Boonton, NJ via NKP/Buf-DLW

GATX 22191 bean oil Lever Bro, Edgewater, NJ via NKP/Buf-Erie-NYSW

NKP 27746 meal P R Markley, Rohrestown, PA NKP-PRR
xCicero-Arcadia-Hobbs
NKP 27747 meal Elkhart Co Farm Bureau, Goshen, IN NKP-NYC

6-17-48 NKP 27760 bulk meal VAN-Hubbard Milling, Economy, PA via PRR
xCamden, IN 12 doors
SWTX 7790 bean oil VAN-Swift&Co Refinery, Port Newark, NJ via PRR

ISTX 701 XT Capitol City Prod Co, Columbus, OH NKP-B4

NKP 27765 ??? A K Zinn & Co, Battle Creek, MI NKP/MichCity-MC

6-22-48 GATX 13668 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth, VA NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

GATX 29124 bean oil Proctor&Gamble, Portsmouth, VA NKP/Indpls-B4-N&W

NKP 27769 bulk meal Hidden ? Mills, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27772 bulk meal Hidden ? Mills, Indianapolis NKP

NKP 27771 bulk meal Co-op Gr ? Mills, Buffalo, via NKP-BC dely

Both O scale Southern Railway kits that I described about 10 days ago
are now available for shipment. The web page has been updated with
model pix and prices. The link is below.

One kit is of the 41' flat car, the other is the composite gon made from
the flat. The flat ran in revenue service from 1925 into the mid-60s;
the gon from 1928 to the early 60s.

Please support your favorite dealer if he carries O scale or will
special order for you. Otherwise, order direct from us using PayPal,
Visa/MC, check or money order. Shipping is $8 per order via USPS
Priority.

Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
http://www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

Clark/Ben;

The CGW 87000-89998 series did have AB brakes as built (and the arrangement differed from the Pennsy component standards), but the earlier 1931-built CGW series, 85000-85998 (even), and 86000-89998 (even) both had KC brakes. If you have Mark Vandercook's book, "An American Journey", there are two good pics of CGW ARA box cars on pages 70 and 71. They were taken in Omaha, NE. (These photos are also on-line, and I imagine one of the more organized historians out there can supply the URL's). At any rate, the photos clearly show KC brakes on CGW 86050 and some of its mates.

I also have the Northwestern Lines article that Clark mentions, and while it contains a great deal of excellent information, there are some errors and inconsistencies in it. The most problematic is that the 89000-89998 series cars discussed in the article are really a variant of the 1932 ARA box car, and should not be considered as similar to the other CGW series mentioned above. As many of us know, the mere act of publishing something seems to ensure that even more/better information will become available, highlighting any errors in our original effort. To be sure, Mr. Follmar's article from the early 90's is still a valuable reference for those interested in the distinctive CGW cars and I remain appreciative of his effort.

Kind regards, Rob Adams



rockroll50401 wrote:

--
Rob Adams
Wellman, IA
steamera@...
Modeling Keokuk, IA operations and the CB&Q's K&W branch, circa 1938
http://www.KeokukandWesternRR.com

Another possible complication is the original K brake arrangement of
the CGW cars.
Ben Hom

Ben,
It's possible all the CGW cars come with AB brakes. The CNWHS had an
article on these cars with a builders photo of a 87000 series car
stenciled "expreimental AB brake system" or something like that. But,
the 87s were the last series bought.
There was a CGW car at Corralville IA (Iowa City) on the Iowa
Interstate. It was in CNW MoW gray. I believe the car is now in
Dubuque? I took photos of it at CV for someone and they told me the
original number, but I don't remember anything, so why did I even type
this paragraph??
Thanks Ben,
Clark Propst

- Richard Hendrickson wrote:

3. I am unable to make out what this might say.

"The upper marking appears to me to be an "OK" chalk mark. The actual
stenciling probably reads "CU FT 2955" and, below that,
"BLT 5-1925," as this required information does not appear to be
stenciled elsewhere."

I adjusted the image some and at a certain display resolution the
lettering for item 3. the second line appears to be "CLASS XM". I
agree with Richard that the first line is a chalk mark and the third
line is the built date.

Bob Witt

Steve Solombrino writes:

Can please now drop this and

move on to steam era freight cars?

Note that Steve uses the word..."please"...a perfectly acceptable form of making a request. At the same time, he is also correct that the UPS/Pullman whatever issue is out of scope for the STMFC... unless someone somehow ties UPS to a frt car and, in that case, color of UPS vehicles other than frt cars is out of scope unless one were talking about flat car loads. In any case, the UPS/Pullman color thread is now terminated. It would, of course, possibly be within scope...maybe...on the PCL.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

by all means--anything CBQ

Absolutely! Another request here for the stats. Eastern/Anthracite
roads info would be greatly appreciated.

Greg Bartek

Yes -- please put an Excel of the Railway Age statistics in the files
section.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 at 14:43:13, Pat Wider wrote:
"Every month (I think), Railway Age published a table of statistics for just
about every
railroad that one can think of. Included in the tables were the number of
home and foreign
freight cars on line. While the tables don't break the data down further to
car type, it is
interesting to see the total numbers as well as the ratio between the two.
Ed and I have a
near complete collection of RA for the period of interest. Would these
numbers be of
interest to the subscribers? We could publish a summary in RP CYC by year
(we'll pick the
month). Besides, Ed really likes working with EXCEL!!!!"

I would really enjoy seeing this - it would help me with my modelling too!

Richard White



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--- In STMFC@..., "Fred in Vt." <pennsy@s...> wrote:

Pat,

Great history lesson. Now the big question is>>>did they

have any interaction with the RR's between 1917, and 1959? If you use
Pullman Brown, there has to be a reason.

Sounds like the making of a good book is due on this topic,

in the event there is proof of a RR interacton for all those years.
Hmmmm?

Fred Freitas

Let's end this off topic thread with some facts.

The only connection between UPS and the railroads is the fact that in
the early 1960's (too late for this group to discuss) UPS started using
TOFC service and has become one of the railroads largest and most
demanding customers.
There was never a relationship between UPS and Pullman except to
uphold Pullman as a fine example of how to run a company, in 1916. For
that story and the story of Pullman Brown and UPS, go here:
<http://www.pressroom.ups.com/mediakits/popups/factsheet/0,1889,923,00.h
tml>

For more UPS history go here:
<http://www.ups.com/content/corp/about/history/index.html>

There was never a relationship between UPS and REA. When REA folded,
UPS was well established though smaller than REA. REA was then and
still is upheld by UPS as an example of how not to run a company.
Their former managers and execs did not find their way anywhere near
UPS. UPS only promotes from within to insure the continuation of the
UPS culture and to prevent it's dilution or contamination with outside
counter cultures.
I'll gladly discuss these issues off the list and will not post any
more messages here regarding this topic. Can please now drop this and
move on to steam era freight cars?
Thank you.

Steve Solombrino
up4479@...

On Sep 30, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Mark Mathu wrote:

Page 254 of Stan Mailer's "Green Bay and Western" (Hundman Publishing, 1989)
has an interesting photo of a GBW 40' boxcar with a large "X" design on the
car door. For the sake of this discussion, I've put a copy of the image at
http://www.greenbayroute.com/gbw6062boxcar.jpg.

The caption of the photo reads:
"Car 6062, a composite boxcar built in 1925, was one of 200 built for
prosperous times and increased traffic. Note the white-painted 'X' design on
the car door, applied in the 1930s as a grade-crossing safety feature."

Mark, I'm very suspicious of the claim that the symbol on the door was a "grade crossing safety feature." At he time the photo was taken, grade crossing accidents had not yet become a major problem for the railroads, as they were in the '50s and '60s, and AFAIK no other RR had yet adopted any sort of stenciling or reflectors to improve grade crossing visibility. I wouldn't accept Mailer's statement at face value in the absence of documentation; it sounds to me like the kind of speculation amateur historians indulge in when they encounter a phenomenon they can't explain. (And by all means, don't assume that it must be true just because it's in print; those of us who write for publication all know from personal experience that, despite our best intentions, published information later turns out to be incorrect.) A more likely explanation, in the era the photo dates from, is that the car was assigned to some sort of special service, perhaps to the loading of a specific commodity such as paper, flour, or rice, as GBW assigned cars to all of these commodities in later years. The door symbol would have made it easier for yard crews to identify the car's assignment and make sure it didn't go astray. There are a number of similar example on other RRs in that era, such as the "X" on the doors of CNW box cars in Chicago captive service and the yellow doors on Santa Fe double deck stock cars so they wouldn't be confused with single deck cars.

I'm hoping this list can provide their "best guesses" as to what some of the
obscured lettering might be. I realize that we probably can't be exact based
on the limited information available in just one photo, but perhaps by
pooling knowledge about what typical boxcar lettering of the 1930s would be,
we can make some knowledgeable assumptions to fill in the gaps.

Okay, here are some educated guesses.

My four numbered questions correspond to the numbers I put on the boxcar
photo.

1. Could this be some sort of builders logo or trust stencil? This
particular boxcar was built by General American in 1925.

No. Builder's bugs never survived repainting, and this car had obviously been repainted at least once since it was delivered new. Most likely, it was repacking stenciling - a number of RRs used similar "stylized" repacking stencils in the steam era - especially as no other repacking stenciling is visible on the car.

2. Any ideas what this small lettering might be? (Later-era (1960) photos of
boxcars from this class say "CARDWELL TYPE K SNUBBERS" to the right of the
door opening.)

Beats me. It was common in the '20s and '30s to have stenciling in this location reading "TACK CARDS HERE" or words that that effect, but that's not what this stenciling seems to say. The last word looks as if it might be "DOOR," but with the half-tone distorting things so much, that's just a WA guess.

3. I am unable to make out what this might say.

The upper marking appears to me to be an "OK" chalk mark. The actual stenciling probably reads "CU FT 2955" and, below that,
"BLT 5-1925," as this required information does not appear to be stenciled elsewhere.

4. This is probably dimensional data. (I have Official Railway Equipment
Register data on these cars, so if that's the case I can fill in the specific
dimensions.) It looks like five lines of data and then three additional
lines of info below that. Any guess what info might typically be listed on
cars of this era?

The top five lines are definitely dimensional data: EXW 10-2 H12-4
EW 9-7 H12-9
IL 40-6
IW 8-6
IH 8-7

The other three lines are mechanical data of the sort that was more often stenciled on car ends, and again the half-tone reduces us to guesswork. (Any chance that you could track Stan Mailer down and get a copy or scan of the original print?) Typical information stenciled on other cars of this era was coupler type and shank size "TYPE D CPLR 6X8," brake beam type "AAR NO 2 BRK BM," draft gear equipment "NATIONAL M-4-A DRAFT GEAR" and "FARLOW ATTACHMENT," and type of snubbers if fitted "CARDWELL TYPE A SNUBBER." I'm inclined to doubt that this car had snubbers, however, as snubbers were just beginning to be retro-fitted on older freight cars in the mid-1930s and the GBW mechanical department wasn't known for leading any parades. For obvious reasons, this car would not have been stenciled for later mechanical improvements like wrought steel wheels, long-travel truck springs, and AB brakes.

FWIW, both Champ and Sunshine have issued decal sets with an assortment of such mechanical data.

Sorry I can't be more conclusive, but I hope this helps.

Richard Hendrickson

Anyone want to share a room at Naperville? They've run out
of discount rooms and so I'll have to share or find another
place to stay... Thanks. I will be in town Oct 26-Oct 30.

Tim O'Connor
978-422-2328