Date   

Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Just in case anyone didn't get the mailer yet the meets are scheduled for;

Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Monrovia, CA, Sunday March 14th, 10-6, $30 with free mini-kit (table
$30)


I really suspect the Monrovia meet is Sunday, March 4th, since it's the week
before Pleasanton.

Tom M.


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Jay Styron <styronz@...>
 

March 14 is a Wednesday. When is this event really being held?
-Jay

Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Monrovia, CA, Sunday March 14th, 10-6, $30 with free mini-kit


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
So what is the mini-kit, and who's going to pick one up for me? ;o)
After Jon Miller had posted:
Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Monrovia, CA, Sunday March 14th, 10-6, $30 with free mini-kit (table
$30)


Must be a 10-6, right???

Oh, this isn't the PCL?

Tom M.

"Ah say, that's a joke, son!"
Senator Claghorn, for those old enough to remember.
Foghorn Leghorn, for those who aren't.


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Send for registration to;

Sunshine Models
Box 4997
Springfield, MO 65808-4997

Tim,
It said on the sheet, "a free Sunshine Mini-Kit exclusively for
attendees".


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

So what is the mini-kit, and who's going to pick one up for me? ;o)

At 04:28 PM 1/25/01 -0800, you wrote:
Just in case anyone didn't get the mailer yet the meets are scheduled for;

Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Monrovia, CA, Sunday March 14th, 10-6, $30 with free mini-kit (table $30)
Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Just in case anyone didn't get the mailer yet the meets are scheduled for;

Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Hey, I could do this one.... who gets the dough?

Dave Nelson


Re: Sunshine Prototype Modelers Meets

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Just in case anyone didn't get the mailer yet the meets are scheduled for;

Pleasanton, CA, Sunday March 11th, 10-6, $25 with free mini-kit
Monrovia, CA, Sunday March 14th, 10-6, $30 with free mini-kit (table $30)

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Coal Dispersal

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ed,

By the time (1950) of the statistics in question, Bethlehem Steel was no
longer using coal at their Downey plant, which I assume is the one you
mean. I don't have my materials at hand, but IIRC the furnaces were
converted to gas and electric during WWII.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Ed Workman wrote:


... to Kaiser and Bethlehem in So Cal would have interchanged at Provo ....


Re: Coal Dispersal

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson@opendoor.com]
For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
Much of the coal received by the D&RGW from UCR was handed off to the UP
for shipment to Kaiser's Fontana steel mill, so that doubtless
accounts for a sizeable part of the UP's tonnage.

Actually it's a bit more complex.... The Utah moved 1300k tons that year,
much of which was given to the D&RGW for delivery to the smelters north of
Provo (one of which owned the Utah) or off to the home heating suppliers in
Salt Lake City. Coal for the Fontana works came from the Kaiser owned
Sunnyside mine in Carbon county, which was originated by the Grande and
passed on the to UP. And of course mines served by the Utah did ship down
the LA&SL, but the UP received it directly from them at Provo -- and in
later years I understand this was considerable. What I don't know offhand
is whether, in 1950, the Carbon County was classified by the ICC as a
terminal service or class III road -- the difference being how the Grande
would report that tonnage: as originated tonnage if the CBC was a terminal
service or inbound if it was still a class III carrier. Either way, that
coal only got as far as the Geneva works.

All of which is to say it's unlikely we'll every get this *fully*
understood, but that it is clear there was a heck of a lot of coal tonnage
being moved as inbound or bridge and it stands to reason one should have
some doubt about that tonnage being moved exclusively in (recipent) home
road marked cars.

I wish I add the rest of the 1950 commodity data -- I'd like to see how much
inbound or bridge tonnage occurred on the southern roads....

Dave Nelson


Re: Coal Dispersal

Ed Workman <eworkman@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock <brockm@brevard.net>
To: STMFC@egroups.com <STMFC@egroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Coal Dispersal


UtahCoal Route,
to Kaiser and Bethlehem in So Cal would have interchanged at Provo from Utah
RY
US Steel owned mines off the DRGW to serve Geneva, connected by USS owned
Carbon County Ry


Re: Coal Dispersal

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock writes, in response to Dave Nelson:

For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
These two are rather interesting. Perhaps D&RGW figures are due to the Utah
Coal Route, but UP's is intriguing.
Much of the coal received by the D&RGW from UCR was handed off to the UP
for shipment to Kaiser's Fontana steel mill, so that doubtless accounts for
a sizeable part of the UP's tonnage.

And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....
I'll dig that out in time.
Is that a pun? if not, how large a shovel do you have? That's a lot of
coal, even in 1/87 scale.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Try http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsaquery.html

You can then choose either color or b&w or both. Then enter search words
like box car or yards, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE [mailto:jaley@pcocd2.intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 1:52 PM
To: STMFC@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)


On Jan 24, 8:45pm, Ben Hom wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)
I like to think of this as the "Christine Syndrome" - a hundred years
from now, researchers of the Rock Island will conclude that the RI
commuter power pool consisted of Christines and E6s based on the
number of photos in existence!
FYI: "Christine" was RI DL-109 #621. It was re-engined by EMD, so took on
a unique appearance. That's why everyone photographed it. "Christine"
refers to a famous person of the '50's who underwent a sex-change
operation.


My personal favorites are
Jack Delano's color photos for the Office of War Information during
WWII - whole yard photos in color documenting the variety of
equipment at that time and (more importantly for those who DON'T
model the 1940s) are a great reference for accurately weathering
steam-era equipment.
I was unable to find these at the Library of Congress website. (I did find
a bunch of Mr. Delano's photos, however). What search URL is best to use?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com


Re: Coal Dispersal

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
These two are rather interesting. Perhaps D&RGW figures are due to the Utah
Coal Route, but UP's is intriguing.

SP: 300k tons
MP: 1100k tons
NKP: 10900k tons (suggests why the NKP was bought by the NW, doesn't it?)
NW: 4900k tons
CBQ: 2400k tons
I certainly can understand the Q, given the diversity in Southern Illinois.

Yeah, mostly GS gons, not hoppers, but the point here is about coal
routings
and most of the data I have is western, but it does address the point.
Anyway, coal carloads averaged a bit more than 50 tons/car if one wants to
calculate carloadings. By this measure, the puny tonnage on the SP still
amounted to ~6000 cars in the year.

And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....
I'll dig that out in time.

Mike Brock


Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Jan 24, 8:45pm, Ben Hom wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)
I like to think of this as the "Christine Syndrome" - a hundred years
from now, researchers of the Rock Island will conclude that the RI
commuter power pool consisted of Christines and E6s based on the
number of photos in existence!
FYI: "Christine" was RI DL-109 #621. It was re-engined by EMD, so took on
a unique appearance. That's why everyone photographed it. "Christine"
refers to a famous person of the '50's who underwent a sex-change
operation.


My personal favorites are
Jack Delano's color photos for the Office of War Information during
WWII - whole yard photos in color documenting the variety of
equipment at that time and (more importantly for those who DON'T
model the 1940s) are a great reference for accurately weathering
steam-era equipment.
I was unable to find these at the Library of Congress website. (I did find
a bunch of Mr. Delano's photos, however). What search URL is best to use?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Coal Dispersal

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

This might well explain why the N&W would be receiving coal from other
sources. Perhaps a customer needed a blend that included some
Pennsylvania anthracite, for example, or a particular coal with some
other special property that was not mined on the N&W.
That may be (tho I have some doubts about the RR's being all that helpful in
1950) and is just one more item to consider WRT foreign road cars in coal
service.

Bottom line is roads did receive coal that was mined offline. I havn't
heard anybody suggest there was a pool of hoppers (like what one might have
seen with auto cars) so I think there is a case for including foreign road
hoppers, maybe lots of them, in specific cases.

Dave Nelson


Re: Photo Documentation (was War Emergency Hoppers)

Ben Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Ted Cullotta wrote:

"Many photographers may have photographed freight cars because of the
shock value to that particular photographer, thereby making the
extremely rare seem commonplace to subsequent would-be historians
examining the photos. I'm sure that there are many instances (and I
don't use this example literally, but rather illustratively) of a
photographer snapping a picture of the one pickle car he's ever seen
rather than the thousands of seemingly mundane hoppers that were
always 'in the way' when he peered through his viewfinder."

I like to think of this as the "Christine Syndrome" - a hundred years
from now, researchers of the Rock Island will conclude that the RI
commuter power pool consisted of Christines and E6s based on the
number of photos in existence!

Seriously, though, this underlines one of the few pitfalls of
photographic documentation - the natural human desire of a
photgrapher to record the unusual rather than the mundane. This
makes all of that work spent with a magnifying glass over yard and
whole train pictures important because it allows the researcher the
ability to see the forest for the trees. My personal favorites are
Jack Delano's color photos for the Office of War Information during
WWII - whole yard photos in color documenting the variety of
equipment at that time and (more importantly for those who DON'T
model the 1940s) are a great reference for accurately weathering
steam-era equipment.

Of course, none of this is meant to discount the vital role of photos
in research.


Ben Hom


Re: Coal Dispersal

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Dave and friends,

All coal is not the same. It has different thermal values, different
chemical components, different amounts of ash, etc. Metallurgical coal
(for smelting) is not the same as steamer coal (for power plants).

When I toured the N&W export yards in Norfolk about 17 years ago, I was
surprised to learn all this. Coal from many different sources was being
"warehoused" in their yard. This was blended as it was loaded onto ships
to the buyers' specifications. The properties of every car of coal
received were held in their computers, and specific cuts of cars were
pulled for blending as needed.

This might well explain why the N&W would be receiving coal from other
sources. Perhaps a customer needed a blend that included some
Pennsylvania anthracite, for example, or a particular coal with some
other special property that was not mined on the N&W.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:


... For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
SP: 300k tons
MP: 1100k tons
NKP: 10900k tons (suggests why the NKP was bought by the NW, doesn't it?)
NW: 4900k tons
CBQ: 2400k tons
....And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....


Re: Coal Dispersal

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Brock [mailto:brockm@brevard.net]
As far as the coal haulers go, I think we'll find that it depends on the
location. I'm reasonably certain that I've seen evidence of L&N hoppers
rolling on other coal hauler tracks somewhere.
On the SRR route I mentioned earlier (Asheville, NC), the most common
foreign hoppers were Clinchfield (there was a crossing with an exchange),
followed by the L&N.

It is probably fair to say that within the coal districts one might
reasonably expect to see home road cars almost exclusively but once out of
the coal fields the connecting roads may well have moved cars from multiple
rail sources -- so a more complete answer to original question really does
depends on location.

From the ICC data one might infer some of this non-home road pattern from
whatever coal tonnage is recorded as inbound or bridge. Not a surefire
method in the upper midwest or east coast as water borne coal would be
classified this way too -- meerly suggestive there. In the west, western
half of the midwest, and perhaps parts of the south it's probably a good
enough approach absent other data.

For example, in 1950, tons of coal received from other roads:

D&RGW: 2200k tons
UP: 3300k tons
SP: 300k tons
MP: 1100k tons
NKP: 10900k tons (suggests why the NKP was bought by the NW, doesn't it?)
NW: 4900k tons
CBQ: 2400k tons

Yeah, mostly GS gons, not hoppers, but the point here is about coal routings
and most of the data I have is western, but it does address the point.
Anyway, coal carloads averaged a bit more than 50 tons/car if one wants to
calculate carloadings. By this measure, the puny tonnage on the SP still
amounted to ~6000 cars in the year.

And the large tonnage received by the N&W is a curiosity....

Dave Nelson


Re: Coal Dispersal

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike, an interesting sidelight on L&N coal-hauling operations. Owing to
chronic car shortages during WW II, the International Harvester Co. was
having great difficulty getting a steady supply of coal from a
company-owned coal mine at Benham, KY on the L&N to a company-owned steel
mill near Chicago. They therefore purchased a slew of second-hand L&N
USRA-design twin hoppers (the 7/43 ORER shows 447 cars) which were numbered
in the IHCX 201-700 series and operated in captive service - the ORER entry
specifies that these cars were to be loaded only at the Wisconsin Steel
Coal Mines at Benham, KY. and the cars were stenciled "return to Benham, KY
via L&N RR." After the war, IHC continued to own and operate these cars
through the 1950s and into the early '60s (I have a photo of one still in
service at Chicago in '63, though they're gone from my '65 ORER). I also
have a photo of two IHCX hoppers at Columbus, OH in 6/59, coupled to an L&N
hopper which also was stenciled "return to Benham...." (I wonder what they
were doing in Columbus? I'd expect them to be routed via PRR or Monon from
Louisville to Chicago. Maybe IHC was routing them to another destination
by the late '50s.)

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Coal Dispersal

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Doing a tiny bit of research on coal dispersal, I find this from Louisville
& Nashville Railroad The Old Reliable by Castner, Flanary and Dorin. I've
met Castner before and he's quite creditable.

Referencing a photo of CV Division local #64 in Big Stone Gap, VA, in '54 on
pg 159, "The south end of the CV handled coal routed via the N&W/Norton as
well as coal for markets in the Carolinas via the Clinchfield and ACL/SAL
connections at CRR's south end."

Referring to Corbin, KY, "After washing, coal was reloaded into the same
hoppers and shipped north each night ....to the Cincinnati gateway. From
Cincy, either the NYC or Pennsy forwarded the trains on to US Steel's Gary,
Indiana mills."

"For most of the L&N's history, 'King Coal' moved predominantly northward
from yards at Corbin, Hazard, Loyall and Ravenna to Cincinnati and
Louisville gateways. There, connecting roads...B&O, NYC, Monon, and
Pennsy...handled the coal on to midwestern or northeastern consignees. A
fair amount of coal also went north to the Great Lakes on the C&O via its
Northern Division through Columbus,OH." Apparently, significant demands for
coal in the South developed after our time period. BTW, L&N moved 38 million
tons of coal in '48 making it a major force in coal traffic.

There is an interesting photo in Chesapeake & Ohio in the Coal Fields by
Tomas Dixon, Jr. on pg 50. It shows C&O engine 2759 "with an eastbound of
empty Virginian hoppers at Catlettsburg, KY in '53. The train is headed for
West Gilbert, at the extreme end of the Logan branch, where connection was
made with the Virginian Railway."

Referring again to the same book, pg 13, "The area around Beckley was
honeycombed with railroads and coal mines and the C&O and Virginian
overlapped in many areas. Several mines were served by both RRs." "The next
RR facility to the west was at Gauley Bridge which assembled coal from C&O's
Gauley Subdivision as well as coal delivered by the NYC off its K&M lines
for transportation east."

There is a rather amusing photo on pg 218 in The Last of Steam by Collias.
It shows Santa Fe lettered 2-10-4 5012 leading 101 N&W hoppers through Siam,
OH, on the Pennsy. And, proving that the Santa Fe engines believed in
fairness, the page also shows Santa Fe 5034 pulling what appears to be C&O
empty hoppers through the same locale. These examples, of course, are among
those ATSF 2-10-4s leased by the Pennsy during 1956.

It is clear from just a little bit of looking, that the RRs north of the
coal hauling gateways of Cincinnati and Columbus would see many hoppers of
various coal hauling RRs including N&W, C&O and L&N. I believe that much of
this coal went to the steel industry in the upper midwest. It is also clear
that in the '40s and '50s individual homes depended on coal for heating. So,
I would suggest that anyone modeling RRs in the midwest...particularly those
in a north/south direction... should expect to see hopper drags from the
coal hauling RRs and, in our time period, smaller numbers of cars in
trains.

As far as the coal haulers go, I think we'll find that it depends on the
location. I'm reasonably certain that I've seen evidence of L&N hoppers
rolling on other coal hauler tracks somewhere.

Mike Brock

181961 - 181980 of 182428