Date   

Re: Naperville Question

Tom Houle <thoule@...>
 

Dearth means a lack of as in, "There's a dearth of early registrations for the Naperville meet".
Tom Houle

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Naperville Question


Tim O'C wrote:
> what's a dearth?

I think it's a kind of a drought.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


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Re: Ice Operations

Eric Hansmann <ehansmann@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:

I should have stated my interest more clearly - I'm referring to
what went on at and around the ice docks - not the movement of cars
and other things "purely RR" but rather what the ice dock crews did
and when.
It's interesting to me that no one worked inside the reefer
during loading. It seems curious to me that they would have
allowed 'whatever happened' to the blocks of ice when they were
dumped in to be the end result. I could understand that more
easily if the blocks were smaller but as large as they were it
is amazing that they didn't care if they ended up 'on end', sideways,
catty-wompous, etc. I always figured that the ice bunkers on the
ends of the cars were filled to 'capacity' a lot of the time ... to
reduce the number of times they would have to be re-loaded in the
course of a trip from say Salinas to San Jose to Martinez to Sacramento
to Reno to Salt Lake, to Denver, to Chicago, to New York, to Boston.
That's a lot of days - even with highly expedited salad express
schedules.
How many times was a reefer re-iced in a trip from Salinas to Boston?
Was there a pre-cooling, loading, let the car come to target temp and
then final top off before transit or what?

==============================================


I just picked up the new Morning Sun book "Refrigerator Cars Color Guide" by
list member Gene Green. I note eight pages of color photos documenting
reefer icing at a few locations. Several photos depict icing operations on a
large dock in Columbus, Ohio, circa 1962.

While I have not consumed the entire book yet, I have found it a pretty
solid read and have learned much more about reefer operations than I had
previously understood. Thanks Gene!

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Naperville Question

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'C wrote:
what's a dearth?
I think it's a kind of a drought.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Ice Operations

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Betz asked:
It's interesting to me that no one worked inside the reefer
during loading. It seems curious to me that they would have
allowed 'whatever happened' to the blocks of ice when they were
dumped in to be the end result. I could understand that more
easily if the blocks were smaller but as large as they were it
is amazing that they didn't care if they ended up 'on end', sideways,
catty-wompous, etc.
There would be no way to work inside, as the bunker was walled off from the car interior. And I think you misunderstand what was done with the ice blocks. The PFE standard was a 300-pound block, and the job of the splitter on the deck was to quarter it, and then the passer moved the 75-pound (more or less) chunks to the car man, who chopped them down to the needed size: chunk (cantaloupe size) or crushed (fist size) as the ice went into the bunker. What went into the bunker was most certainly NOT the 300-pounder or even the 75-pounder. One often sees this wrongly modeled. (all this info is in the PFE book)

I always figured that the ice bunkers on the
ends of the cars were filled to 'capacity' a lot of the time ... to
reduce the number of times they would have to be re-loaded in the
course of a trip from say Salinas to San Jose to Martinez to Sacramento
to Reno to Salt Lake, to Denver, to Chicago, to New York, to Boston.
How many times was a reefer re-iced in a trip from Salinas to Boston?
Was there a pre-cooling, loading, let the car come to target temp and
then final top off before transit or what?
Yes, bunkers were normally filled to the top at each re-icing, but the shipper could specify adding a specific amount if desired.
Obviously frequency of re-icing depended on temperature, but every 24 hours is a good average. In cool weather, it could be much more. And the shipper could specify intervals if desired.
Whether a car was pre-iced was up to the shipper. It is LOADS which are pre-cooled, not cars. The PFE recommendation was for the shipper to pre-cool, as it got the load cool right from the loading time, thus reducing damage claims, and made shipment conditions more consistent. If a shipper ordered a pre-iced car, they usually just loaded it as fast as practical and closed the doors. (A big waste in many cases, as the cold air in the car rapidly drained out with the doors open for loading.) Such a car was ordinarily re-iced before starting transit, but the shipper could specify any arrangement whatever. A brief summary of refrigeration tariffs is also in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Plywood reefers

Greg Martin
 

Tony writes...

"I'm sure Greg is right. The PFE documents did refer to "curling,
checking and cracking," but as it happens the shop sketch I saw did
have about a 1/8 inch gap between the plywood sheets. Is that an
inadequate gap, Greg? That gap was in addition to the T-section metal
seal strip (with the "leg" of the T down between the sheets).

"As for it being an "installation error," I have no doubt that
PFE followed the instructions of the Douglas Fir Plywood Association --
whatever they may have been <g>.

Tony Thompson"

Well, let's see we use and 1/8" gap and then we fill that gap with a piece of "TEE" section sheet metal and the gap was in addition to the width of the metal??? HMMM something doesn't add up and I wonder if it was as confusing to the shop crew as it is to this reader? So was the gap intended to be greater than 1/8", like say ¼" and then the metal? I can see that there might have been an installation issue, but the only way to be sure is look at the drawings, then compare that to the practice...It's diffecult to picture as the metal strip would have to "float" or the plywood would have to "float" the two couldn't be rigid UNLESS the gap was properly maitnained. Gone are the cars and the verifaction, regardless the experiment was not repeated by PFE.

If the veneers held across the panel and large sheets of veneer didn't come off it was not a production issue with the plywood. Generally, if there is an issue with a glue line on plywood it was done at a given point and restricted to a few sheets not a complete run or shift produced. But without the evidence we will never know for sure. Remember, these types of plywood panels were not made just for the railroads use but marine use or cooler/freezer use where moisture was constantly present and I can tell you they did last. Again, we would have to put all the pieces of the puzzle together to see what was the cause of the failure. As Dennis mentions perhap the experiment would have worked if the plywood was sheathed with a moisture resistant coating as a cover veneer like those used by sign painters(we call these overlays and they are usually resin soaked paper). These are commonly used today as concrete form and other uses. We certainly know more today about plywood then they did then and most application errors are avoided. This reads to me as an issue that was caused to the plywood when it was installedt that caused restricted expansion and the veneers buckled across the face veneers.

Greg Martin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Naperville Question

Tim O'Connor
 

what's a dearth?

A drought can be expressed as a dearth of sunshine.


Re: Ice Operations

Jim Betz
 

I should have stated my interest more clearly - I'm referring to
what went on at and around the ice docks - not the movement of cars
and other things "purely RR" but rather what the ice dock crews did
and when.
It's interesting to me that no one worked inside the reefer
during loading. It seems curious to me that they would have
allowed 'whatever happened' to the blocks of ice when they were
dumped in to be the end result. I could understand that more
easily if the blocks were smaller but as large as they were it
is amazing that they didn't care if they ended up 'on end', sideways,
catty-wompous, etc. I always figured that the ice bunkers on the
ends of the cars were filled to 'capacity' a lot of the time ... to
reduce the number of times they would have to be re-loaded in the
course of a trip from say Salinas to San Jose to Martinez to Sacramento
to Reno to Salt Lake, to Denver, to Chicago, to New York, to Boston.
That's a lot of days - even with highly expedited salad express
schedules.
How many times was a reefer re-iced in a trip from Salinas to Boston?
Was there a pre-cooling, loading, let the car come to target temp and
then final top off before transit or what?


Re: Naperville Question

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

A drought can be expressed as a dearth of sunshine.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

From: Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Reply-To: <STMFC@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:04:05 -0400
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Naperville Question

O'Connor says:

Hey Mike, this post sounds awfully political to me... and if you
don't step in here I will weigh in on the side of the tax man!

Tim "taxes are WAY too low" O'Connor
I have my attention riveted on the water level over the road in front of my
house and the distance between it and the train room so I'm not too
concerned with your tax problem <g>. I COULD become more involved, however,
and, of course, my mood isn't real good right now. I'm reminded of the time
a few yrs ago when I found myself complaining to my boss just after he had
been reamed by someone else. Not a good practice...as I discovered at the
time.

Mike Brock...What's a drought?


Re: Naperville Question

Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@...>
 

Glad to know you still have power, Mike! And your sense of humor.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Naperville Question


O'Connor says:

Hey Mike, this post sounds awfully political to me... and if you
don't step in here I will weigh in on the side of the tax man!

Tim "taxes are WAY too low" O'Connor
I have my attention riveted on the water level over the road in front of my
house and the distance between it and the train room so I'm not too
concerned with your tax problem <g>. I COULD become more involved, however,
and, of course, my mood isn't real good right now. I'm reminded of the time
a few yrs ago when I found myself complaining to my boss just after he had
been reamed by someone else. Not a good practice...as I discovered at the
time.

Mike Brock...What's a drought?









Yahoo! Groups Links







NP box car #30995

bierglaeser <bierglaeser@...>
 

There is a color photo of a long, shingle-sheathed box car at NP 30995 Box Car Item number: 6572658337.

The truss pattern suggests this car may be the result of splicing two cars. I think I see a Dreadnaught square corner end. When might this car have been built? Were there more? When was it retired?

Reply directly to bierglaeser at yahoo dot com if you care to.

Thanks in advance.

Gene Green


Re: Naperville Question

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

O'Connor says:

Hey Mike, this post sounds awfully political to me... and if you
don't step in here I will weigh in on the side of the tax man!

Tim "taxes are WAY too low" O'Connor
I have my attention riveted on the water level over the road in front of my house and the distance between it and the train room so I'm not too concerned with your tax problem <g>. I COULD become more involved, however, and, of course, my mood isn't real good right now. I'm reminded of the time a few yrs ago when I found myself complaining to my boss just after he had been reamed by someone else. Not a good practice...as I discovered at the time.

Mike Brock...What's a drought?


Re: Plywood reefers II

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Obviously not successful, because it didn't seem to be repeated. Yes, I'd
like the citation, and possibly a copy of the article, or at least the
photo and caption, at your convenience.
If I can get it done when on campus tomorrow, will bring to Naperville. Those interested, other than Dennis, can view the copies also.

I wrote:
Dennis, are you aware of the horizontally grooved plywood
that PFE tried out? Photos in the book.
Dennis replied:
What book? I'm not finding it in "The Great Yellow Fleet".
Hee, hee! Good one. There's a lot of reefer facts missing from it. But I meant that other book on reefers . . . try page 134.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Plywood reefers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Three possibilities come to mind . . . 3) the sheets moved after installation due
to the car frame twisting and "weaving", forcing the edges of the sheets
together.
In a steel-framed car? All of the PFE cars sheathed with plywood were of that type.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Plywood reefers II

Tim O'Connor
 

No, no, Dennis, the -OTHER- book! :-)

Dennis, are you aware of the horizontally grooved plywood
that PFE tried out? Photos in the book.
What book? I'm not finding it in "The Great Yellow Fleet".
Dennis Storzek


Re: Naperville Question

Tim O'Connor
 

Hey Mike, this post sounds awfully political to me... and if you
don't step in here I will weigh in on the side of the tax man!

Tim "taxes are WAY too low" O'Connor

For those driving from the East, it would be advisable to make a pit
stop at the last rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road - according to Rand
McNally, construction is still going on I-80/I-94 south of Chicago.

Also, tolls on the Illinois Taxway have increased from forty cents to
eighty cents per Toll (a total of $2.40 for the three tolls) according
to the Taxway's Web Site unless you have I-Pass which is, apparently,
good only in Illinois.

Hoping that the Web Site is incorrect, Tim Gilbert


Re: Naperville Question

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

At the risk of irritating the boss,
My family and I (me driving, wife, 4 kids under 10) spent 3 hours counting
cracks along 80/94 this August. Don't try to get from Gary to Winfield(n of
Naperville) on a Friday @ 3! All those people went to Iowa! Tolls are up,
a few on the north side were $1.
Joe Binish


Re: Naperville Question

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

For those driving from the East, it would be advisable to make a pit stop at the last rest stop on the Indiana Toll Road - according to Rand McNally, construction is still going on I-80/I-94 south of Chicago.

Also, tolls on the Illinois Taxway have increased from forty cents to eighty cents per Toll (a total of $2.40 for the three tolls) according to the Taxway's Web Site unless you have I-Pass which is, apparently, good only in Illinois.

Hoping that the Web Site is incorrect, Tim Gilbert


Re: Plywood reefers II

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@s...> wrote:

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Care to offer a citation to info on the Soo Line plywood covered
boxcars? ...
There was a photo in Railway Age, I think in the late 1930s. I've
recently been browsing the RA volumes looking for additional freight
car stuff, but wasn't specifically interested in the Soo cars. If you
want me to look back for a citation, I'll do so. The photo was one of
the "Fowler" cars.
Obviously not successful, because it didn't seem to be repeated. Yes, I'd like the citation, and possibly a copy of the article, or at least the photo and caption, at your convenience.

This plywood has
strips of rough sawn veneer on the face ply, which hold paint well,
separated by grooves to make it look like boards....
Dennis, are you aware of the horizontally grooved plywood
that PFE tried out? Photos in the book.
What book? I'm not finding it in "The Great Yellow Fleet".


Dennis Storzek


Re: Naperville Question

Larry Kline
 

I am traveling from Midway to Naperville by public transportation. CTA
from Midway to the loop. A short walk to the METRA station. METRA from
the loop to Naperville. And a long walk, or Holiday Inn pickup, from
the Naperville RR station to the Holiday Inn. The total cost is $5 or
$6. The travel time is several hours (of railfanning). CTA and Metra
info are online.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

I investigated flying into O'Hare or Midway for Naperville. The
> Holiday Inn does not have a shuttle to either O'Hare or Midway.
> Hiring a limousine, which one must book in advance, was cheaper than
> a taxi but still around fifty bucks as I now recall. I found
> limousine services online.
> Gene Green


Re: LV hoppers in 1945

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Ed and Group,

I've posted a scan in the Files section under LV 15041. In the
book, you can make out the car number. I have to caution that it
could have been "45XXX" instead of "15XXX" (I said it wasn't a GOOD
photo!), however I don't see a 45000 series car which fits this
description in Mr. Shaller's car list.
One interesting thing is that there are additional diagonals on
the extreme end panels.
One note: I find it interesting that the railroads continued to
use diagonals in compression, especially on hopper cars. It's
understandable on box cars since the crossbearers change the way in
which the side panel trusses are loaded. However, on a hopper car,
there is no inturruption in the side panels, so a Pratt truss would
truly put the diagonals in tension. I guess that the argument could
be made that if the diagonals were in tension, then the verticals
would be in compression, so one piece or the other ends up loaded as
a column. On the other hand, the verticals are the shorter of the
two members, and so would have greater buckling strength for the
same cross section.

Hope the photo is of some use!
Phil Buchwald

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@y...> wrote:
Phil-
I haven't located the photo you sent but from the description it
sounds like what I described as a #7 - a unique looking car with
diagonal braces extending below the SLOPE sheets.

Ed

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