Date   

Re: Car Movement Database

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jeff English writes:

Since I'm not sure if this list is being kept secret from the FCL,
Guys, given part of the stated objective of this list...."Emphasis is to be
placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of producing models of them
with as great a degree of accuracy as possible", I see no reason why anyone
on the FCL [ as I am ] should be upset or concerned with the existence of
this group. In fact, it may reduce conflicts that might arise on the FCL due
to posters [ I am not aware that posters on the FCL have any requirement
that FCL discussions relate to modeling with the intent to be as accurate as
possible { that, BTW, doesn't imply great accuracy...just an ATTEMPT to
achieve accuracy }] having different objectives. Therefore, secrecy is not a
need...at least as far as I am concerned. This group is likewise not meant
to insult or demean the FCL in any way.

Mike Brock
STMFC moderator


Re: Car Movement Database

Jeff English
 

Since I'm not sure if this list is being kept secret from the FCL,
but I thought both lists would find this info of interest, here's a
"blind copy" of my response to an inquiry prompted by an earlier
post of mine on the FCL:

"Dave & Libby Nelson" <muskoka@...> wrote:

Jeff, what are the starting and ending dates in your car movement
database?

Dave Nelson
Dave, I'm copying my reply to your inquiry to the FCL so others
may know what I'm drawing from. It's a polyglot mix of data from:

Switch Lists for Train #9 westbound out of Alburgh, Vermont, 9-21-
42 through 12-31-42, 5443 cars

Report of Cars Arrived, Ordered, Placed & Released at Alburgh,
Vermont, 3-6-48 through 6-30-48, 574 cars

Report of Waybills Received at Ellenburg, NY, 7-2-51 through 8-28-
52, 1394 cars

Agent's notes on cars placed for interchange at Rouses Point, NY,
7-17-57 through 9-16-58, 2654 cars

Interchange Reports at Bellows Falls, Vermont, 1-1-61 through 9-
21-61, 9222 cars

Also a catch-all list which includes identifiable cars in photos at
locations on the Rutland and a smattering of individual waybills,
etc., for all eras up to 9-21-61 not present on my current hard disk,
1236 cars.
That makes a grand total of 20,523 cars.

I also have been sitting on a few boxes of papers for several
years now which I still need to digitize, including: more Switch
Lists for Train #9 at Alburgh, for random 6-month periods (that's
how they were bundled) in the 50s, and a complete 12-month set of
Interchange Reports for the year 1949 at Rouses Point, NY, where
the Rutland interchanged with the CN, CV, D&H and Napierville
Junction (D&H's Canadian subsidiary). This latter body of data
appears to be somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand cars by
itself, while the 6-month bundles contain about 5 to 8 thousand
cars' worth of data each.
I haven't worked on any of this since I started researching NYC
box cars in earnest.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Complaint

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Oh, that's right, you never made any. Okay, I'll wait for the tank car
underframes<

Speaking of tank car frames I have all these tanks waiting--------!

Might be a good time for Mike to state whether Way cars, er Cabooses,
are within our freight car topics. Also are we going to include Drover
cars? Some heavy questions for the moderator to decide!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Complaint

byronrose@...
 

Thank you Tom, I'm glad to see that someone on this list is not only
paying attention, but . . . . What was the question again?

On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:35:55 -0700 "Gail & Tom Madden"
<tgmadden@...> writes:
The local RPA wrote:

What is the easiest way to model fingerprints on the inside of grab
irons?
Claim your trainmen always wore gloves and forget about it.
Thats a cop-out if I ever heard one. Remind me not to buy any of your
p____r car kits. Oh, that's right, you never made any. Okay, I'll wait
for the tank car underframes.


What size were the knot holes in the decks of USRA flat cars still
in
service in the 40s?
There were not holes in the decks, except those made by knails.
I have photographs that show knot holes. All I want to know is what was
the recommended size of them. Is that too much to ask?


What size were the pivot pins on 1920s era coupler knuckles?
A meaningless question. The pivot pins were not "on" the coupler
knuckles -
they were a separate part. If you're going to be a useful
contributor to
this group you'll have to be more precise.
Let me rephrase that question: What size were the pivot pins used with
1920s era coupler knuckles?


What was the wall thickness of the piping used in the AB brakes
added to
PRR X-29 boxcars in 1948?
Schedule 40 or Schedule 80?
That's a part of my question. If I knew the answer to that I could look
it up in my Funk and Wagnells.


What was the relative strength of Youngstown ends vs Dreadnaught
ends vs
Despatch Shop ends vs Pullman PS-1 ends, with complete structural
analysis?
I'll have to look that up. I believe the testing was done by Mighty
Joe Youngstown.
Tom, I think you made that name up. I'm glad I didn't say Murphy end or
you'd give me some name like Murphy Chowderhead. But thanks for taking
the time to look it up for me. I will be anxiously awaiting your reply.


Where did the pigments come from that were used in making the green
paint
on EJ&E box cars?
Joliet. Or Elgin.
Finally, a real answer. Thank you. But do you have an address? I'd
like to pick some up next time I'm in Joliet for a box car I'm building
from scratch. Or is that scratching to build? I always forget.

How old were the pipe fitters who added the AB brakes to that PRR
X-29 in 1948?

Very young. That job was given to those who had only learned the
first few letters of the alphabet.
I guess you had to have more seniority to work on K brakes.


What RRs box cars were used to ship Firestone tires in the 30s?
Did they blow out then too?

Only if they were inflated. But inflation was very low during the
depression, so it wasn't a problem.
And I suppose there were very few explorers then too. But you didn't
answer the first part of the question.


What was the temperature of the crushed ices used in SFRD reefers
in the 20s? 30s? Were the cars shaken or stirred?
In the 20s it varied - I believe it was a cube function. In 1933
President
Roosevelt devalued the farenheit. From then on ice was able to
adjust its
temperature to the needs of the load.
But this time you didn't answer the third part of the question.


How were the light bulb packed in those GE covered hoppers?
You mean the ones that lit whenever a hatch was lifted?
Yes.


What railroads box cars had the fuzziest wood siding?
The Santa Fe had a one-of reefer that was kind of fluffy. Otherwise,
I can
put you in touch with a fellow who used to be associated with AMB,
who might be able to help you out.
Yeah, like the same way I came in?


Good to be on a list with you again, Byron!
Tom, you can call me BS. And you're welcome.

BS


Mike, this is another one of the posts you can remove from the archives!

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Re: Complaint

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

Tom Madden responds to Byron Rose's first post with:

The local RPA wrote:
Which is all he really needed to say. Unlike most other lists, the STMFC has
an RPA. This is good. Someone...Richard probably knows who...wrote that "you
can't go back". But, in this case, he appears to be wrong.
It was Tom Wolfe who wrote "you can't go home again," though the idea
itself wasn't original with him. Many of us wouldn't want to go home again
if we could. But most, if not all, of those on this list are probably
model railroaders out of nostalgia for an earlier era of prototype
railroading. I can tell you from recent experience that a ca. 1953
operating session on the Tehachapi layout in San Diego is the closest thing
to a time machine I ever expect to experience. Running the Grand Canyon up
the hill from Caliente with a timetable in my pocket and a couple of form
19s in my hand is, as Yogi Berra aptly (if redundantly) put it, "deja vu
all over again." And having a troll under the bridge makes it that much
better. So we're fortunate to have our own antiquated troll under the
bridge on this list. Welcome back, Byron.

BTW, as moderator, I decree that express reefers can be discussed on this
list. Yes, they operated frequently on passenger...or mail...trains. But,
they also frequently hauled produce of one form or another...and they are
found in the ORER.
Express reefers were often found in freight trains - there's lots of
documentary evidence for this - when carrying cargoes that weren't
time-sensitive or on empty back hauls. So there's no need to rationalize
discussing them here, unless you're into rationalizing for its own sake.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Express Reefers [was Complaint]

sswain@...
 

Now that the door is open a crack on express reefers, I should draw folks
attention to Sylvan's relatively new CN 10000-10099 express reefer kit in
HO scale. I'm told these wood-sheathed cars were commonly seen in New
England headed to New York loaded with fresh fish from fisheries such as
that based in Prince Rupert BC and the inland fisheries of Manitoba,
Ontario, etc.

These cars were the 1923-25 era 45-foot cars and there are also similar
50-foot cars from 1927-30 (10400 series) in this service which we are
hopeful will come as another Sylvan kit.

. . and if any one needs more detail, you know where I live.

Tom Madden responds to Byron Rose's first post with:

The local RPA wrote:
Which is all he really needed to say. Unlike most other lists, the STMFC has
an RPA. This is good. Someone...Richard probably knows who...wrote that "you
can't go back". But, in this case, he appears to be wrong.

BTW, as moderator, I decree that express reefers can be discussed on this
list. Yes, they operated frequently on passenger...or mail...trains. But,
they also frequently hauled produce of one form or another...and they are
found in the ORER. More importantly, I am modeling the damned things and
will...as usual...need help. We also have Branchline bringing out some very
useful models soon.

Mike Brock




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


Re: Complaint

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tom Madden responds to Byron Rose's first post with:

The local RPA wrote:
Which is all he really needed to say. Unlike most other lists, the STMFC has
an RPA. This is good. Someone...Richard probably knows who...wrote that "you
can't go back". But, in this case, he appears to be wrong.

BTW, as moderator, I decree that express reefers can be discussed on this
list. Yes, they operated frequently on passenger...or mail...trains. But,
they also frequently hauled produce of one form or another...and they are
found in the ORER. More importantly, I am modeling the damned things and
will...as usual...need help. We also have Branchline bringing out some very
useful models soon.

Mike Brock


Re: Complaint

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

The local RPA wrote:

What is the easiest way to model fingerprints on the inside of grab
irons?

Claim your trainmen always wore gloves and forget about it.

What size were the knot holes in the decks of USRA flat cars still in
service in the 40s?

There were not holes in the decks, except those made by knails.

What size were the pivot pins on 1920s era coupler knuckles?

A meaningless question. The pivot pins were not "on" the coupler knuckles -
they were a separate part. If you're going to be a useful contributor to
this group you'll have to be more precise.

What was the wall thickness of the piping used in the AB brakes added to
PRR X-29 boxcars in 1948?

Schedule 40 or Schedule 80?

What was the relative strength of Youngstown ends vs Dreadnaught ends vs
Despatch Shop ends vs Pullman PS-1 ends, with complete structural
analysis?

I'll have to look that up. I believe the testing was done by Mighty Joe
Youngstown.

Where did the pigments come from that were used in making the green paint
on EJ&E box cars?

Joliet. Or Elgin.

How old were the pipe fitters who added the AB brakes to that PRR X-29 in
1948?

Very young. That job was given to those who had only learned the first few
letters of the alphabet.

What RRs box cars were used to ship Firestone tires in the 30s? Did they
blow out then too?

Only if they were inflated. But inflation was very low during the
depression, so it wasn't a problem.

What was the temperature of the crushed ices used in SFRD reefers in the
20s? 30s? Where the cars shaken or stirred?

In the 20s it varied - I believe it was a cube function. In 1933 President
Roosevelt devalued the farenheit. From then on ice was able to adjust its
temperature to the needs of the load.

How were the light bulb packed in those GE covered hoppers?

You mean the ones that lit whenever a hatch was lifted?

What railroads box cars had the fuzziest wood siding?

The Santa Fe had a one-of reefer that was kind of fluffy. Otherwise, I can
put you in touch with a fellow who used to be associated with AMB, who might
be able to help you out.

Good to be on a list with you again, Byron!

Tom

(Mike, this is one of the posts you can remove from the archives!)


Complaint

byronrose@...
 

Okay guys, I've been on this darn fool list for 30 hours now and all I've
seen discussed is dates, airplane glues, trolley cars, and casting
resins. When do we get to the important parts of freight cars? Like fer
instance:

What is the easiest way to model fingerprints on the inside of grab
irons?

What size were the knot holes in the decks of USRA flat cars still in
service in the 40s?

What size were the pivot pins on 1920s era coupler knuckles?

What was the wall thickness of the piping used in the AB brakes added to
PRR X-29 boxcars in 1948?

What was the relative strength of Youngstown ends vs Dreadnaught ends vs
Despatch Shop ends vs Pullman PS-1 ends, with complete structural
analysis?

Where did the pigments come from that were used in making the green paint
on EJ&E box cars?

How old were the pipe fitters who added the AB brakes to that PRR X-29 in
1948?

What RRs box cars were used to ship Firestone tires in the 30s? Did they
blow out then too?

What was the temperature of the crushed ices used in SFRD reefers in the
20s? 30s? Where the cars shaken or stirred?

How were the light bulb packed in those GE covered hoppers?

What railroads box cars had the fuzziest wood siding?

Ooops, I didn't mean that last question. Where the heck is the delete
key now that I need it? After all, I use it so rarely. Oh well, sorry.

BSR
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Re: Casting treatise

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:
For that matter, perhaps Tom Madden may want to share his wonderful
treatise on casting resins with us, as a preventative measure!
Another very good idea.

Mike Brock
STMFC Moderator

That thing is so far out of date I'd just as soon it be permitted to die a
quiet death. It also led indirectly to my departure from the FCL three or
four years ago, when as the resident casting guru I blew my stack after some
clown disclosed what material Al was using. I overreacted, and took a real
e-mail beating for my trouble. Since then my policy has been to answer
casting questions by private e-mail, and to work with manufacturers. As for
needing any preventive measures, the members of this list are extremely
knowledgeable and have a pretty good grasp of current hobby technologies.
I'll respond to specific questions, but with our collective knowledge I just
don't see us thrashing around in the sort of entry-level extended discussion
that tires us all out - on any topic!

Tom


1960 End Date

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

We have received many thoughts and suggestions as to the time period to be
discussed on the STMFC. While I don't want or like the idea of being
dictatorial, I'm going to stay with the originally set time period of 1960
being the end date. It is, I think, important that the STMFC be what it was
established to be, a forum to discuss freight cars of the Steam Era. There
will, however, no doubt be times when discussion will fall outside this time
zone.

Mike Brock
STMFC Moderator


Re: Freight Cars vs Glue

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

I know we're just getting started, but I hope (as Dick Harley implied)
that we can eliminate very general, generic modeling questions and try
to stick to the relevant matter of freight cars.
"The discussion about GLUE has been covered in virtually every mailing list
since the beginning of time
and I hope that now that's it come up and been discussed, that that is the
last we'll see of it here...
As I said in my comments pertaining to the objectives of the STMFC, I don't
expect this forum to be quiet. At the same time, the description that I laid
out includes...."....and various techniques of building models of them.
Emphasis is to be placed on the study of the prototype with a goal of
producing models of them with as great a degree of accuracy as possible."

While I hope that we will see a strong emphasis placed by this group on the
study of the prototype, I also hope that we will see as much emphasis placed
on techniques of modeling these things. While we have, indeed, discussed
various glues, there are new glues becoming available. There is, in fact, a
newly developed glue that apparently will, for the first time, allow details
such as those produced by Detail Associates to be easily attached to
styrene. So, given that, I do not believe we should look with askance at
discussions about subjects that have been discussed before. As someone had
to have said sometime before..."It's how much, isn't it?"

If you like, I can compile a list of adhesives from those that have been
suggested today and over the years, and put a FAQ entry into the files
area.
A very good idea. Thanks.

For that matter, perhaps Tom Madden may want to share his wonderful
treatise on casting resins with us, as a preventative measure!
Another very good idea.

Mike Brock
STMFC Moderator


Re: The steam era, 1960

Gail & Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Keith Jordan wrote (regarding SFRD reefers):
You could argue there was little change in the 1950s with these cars, but a
big change in the 1960s. At any rate, I found it interesting and it does
tend to support 1960 as a watershed freight car decade.

Wouldn't the 40-year rule have had a lot to do with that? Many cars built
throughout the '20s, damfew during the '30s. Replacing much of the remaining
post-W.W.I, pre-W.W.II fleet beginning in 1960 would by itself have made the
'60s a watershed decade. Factor in such things as higher horsepower motive
power and more efficient ROW construction materials and techniques that made
possible increased clearances (ergo larger cars), and you've really got a
big change.

Tom "or is my ignorance showing?" M.


Re: The steam era, 1960

Keith Jordan <kjordan@...>
 

The talk about 1960 got me to thinking what had changed in the ten years
from 1950 to 1960, so I looked up some statistics on one of my favorite
subjects, SFRD reefers:

In 1950, there were

2955 wood sheathed steel framed steel underframe cars
10607 all steel swing door cars
563 all steel sliding door cars
445 fifty foot ice bunker cars
1 mechanical car

In 1960, there were

0 wood sheathed steel frame steel underframe cars
2101 all steel swing door cars
10172 all steel sliding door cars
390 fifty foot ice bunker cars
323 mechanical cars

Look at 1970 before we go, however:

1365 all steel swing door cars
3718 all steel sliding door cars
40 fifty foot ice bunker cars
3614 mechanical cars

You could argue there was little change in the 1950s with these cars, but a
big change in the 1960s. At any rate, I found it interesting and it does
tend to support 1960 as a watershed freight car decade.

Keith Jordan

From: sswain@...
Reply-To: STMFC@...
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:09:49 -0600
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] The steam era, 1960

FWIW, both the CPR and CNR's steam operations essentially ended after April
1960. Any steam use after that by the dominant two railways in this
country could be described as being excursion related (there may have been
a handful CPR trips in the summer of 1960).

Dave Nelson writes:

- I understand opinions vary on when the steam era ended. I think <=1956
is
generous.
It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum
community that the end of the steam era was 1960. The late 1950s still saw
some Class 1 steam, while the 1960s saw steam only on a few short lines and
in Canada. Rolling stock, too, made a big leap in the 1960s, as Richard
pointed out.

....Mike
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@...



Re: The steam era, 1960

sswain@...
 

FWIW, both the CPR and CNR's steam operations essentially ended after April
1960. Any steam use after that by the dominant two railways in this
country could be described as being excursion related (there may have been
a handful CPR trips in the summer of 1960).

Dave Nelson writes:

>- I understand opinions vary on when the steam era ended. I think <=1956
is
>generous.
It is commonly regarded by the more formal historian and professional museum
community that the end of the steam era was 1960. The late 1950s still saw
some Class 1 steam, while the 1960s saw steam only on a few short lines and
in Canada. Rolling stock, too, made a big leap in the 1960s, as Richard
pointed out.

....Mike
Stafford Swain
26 Kenneth Street
Winnipeg, MB, Canada
R3T 0K8
(204) 477-9246
sswain@...


Freight Cars vs Glue

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I know we're just getting started, but I hope (as Dick Harley implied)
that we can eliminate very general, generic modeling questions and try
to stick to the relevant matter of freight cars. The discussion about GLUE
has been covered in virtually every mailing list since the beginning of time
and I hope that now that's it come up and been discussed, that that is the
last we'll see of it here...

If you like, I can compile a list of adhesives from those that have been
suggested today and over the years, and put a FAQ entry into the files
area.

For that matter, perhaps Tom Madden may want to share his wonderful
treatise on casting resins with us, as a preventative measure!


Re: Wire handrails

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tony,

Is R/C-56 anything like the stuff Microscale sells for making windows?
Crystal Clear or some such name? This is also a white glue, but unlike
classic Elmers, it stays sort of rubbery for a long time (maybe
forever). In addition to filling in small windows, I have used it as a
glue to affix clear styrene window glazing to the inside of cabooses,
and thought it might have a lot of other uses.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


thompson@... wrote:


I usually use my favorite inter-material adhesive, R/C-56, a white glue
from the model airplane field which dries clear and flexible. Great stuff.
Ideal, in particular, for etched metal running boards or F-unit grilles.


Re: Steam era

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

If those stuck in '47 are beyond hope I wonder where that puts me! <G>.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: The steam era, 1960

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Tim, I think you'll find that Fair took place in 1962-63. And the BN
merger took place in 1970...or were you thinking of Amtrak's advent?
Yep, you're right. I was thinking of the New York World's Fair.. And yes
Amtrak on May 1, 1971.


Re: 1960s and all that

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

One good reason to use a circa-1960 cutoff is that the world of freight
cars changed GREATLY around that time: gigantic tank cars, 60-ft. box cars,
85-ft. pig flats, Center Flow covered hoppers, etc
Hmmph. You might as sell say let's stop with 50 foot cars, plug doors, or
10'6" inside height cars, or frameless tank cars. I think Tom's suggestion of
a Rubber Ruler is good enough for me. If a discussion drifts into the 1960's,
as long as there is a connection (however tenuous) to the 1950's, then so be
it. As for the poor souls stuck in 1947, well, they're beyond hope! ;o}