Date   

Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch asked:
I am curious to know how others on the list have gone over the edge.
Once when I was scratchbuilding an asymmetrical tank car (center dome and a dome at one end), I had made the center sills and was applying rivet strips everywhere there would be rivets, including places which would never be visible once the car was assembled. I remember stopping in the middle and asking myself, "what am I doing here??" I will now confess that I did not finish putting on all the invisible rivets. (The car did do well in NMRA contests once finished, having survived a drop to the floor--but that's another story.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Orange/Grey GP9 by Western Pacific.

Tony Thompson
 

In the 50's, did the Orange/Grey GP9 by Western Pacific also travelled
with the U.P. GP9 types on U.P. tracks?
Not at all. There was no particular relationship at all between UP and WP in that era, and it was before the time when railroads shared locomotive hours back and forth. BTW, it would orange and silver, not gray.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I have been working on building three Pressed Steel tank cars, which
were inspired by Richard H's article in issue # 1 of RPMJ, stretching
the Tichy underframes rather than shortening the tanks however.

Over the last couple of days I have been working on the small dome
platform walkway that was always on the left side of these builders
cars. In doing so I am absolutely sure I have gone over the edge and
into the territory known as "extreme modeling." I decided first to
create some .04 brass strip to form the support brackets since this
material is easy to cut and bend but gives a close to scale thickness.

I had done similar brackets for the two Sunshine X-3's I had built,
which for those cars I pinned to the tank side with .12 brass wire,
one at the top and one at the bottom, even though it would have more
faithful if I had used two at each position. The wire was left
sticking out enough to look like a rivet head. It looked good when
painted.

This time however I decided to drill the correct two holes at the top
and bottom of each bracket and create rivets to hold the bracket to
the car side. I created the rivets by pounding the end of the wire
until it was too big to go through the hole in the bracket. When done
I will apply the ACC on the inside of the tank to hold the "rivet" in
place, as I am too big to crawl inside and pound it from the inside.

I am guessing I will have 10 to 12 hours in this process of creating
the six brackets, the 24 rivets and dry fitting to each tank side. I
will not try to describe here the process by which each bracket was
attached temporarily to each tank side so that the holes could be
drilled into the tank sides in just the right place, but perhaps you
get the picture.

I do enjoy stretching myself like this, while at the same time
thinking this is truly nuts. I am sure this started when I started
modeling the drooping chain that is connected to the brake cylinder.
Ironically I don't try to model cut levers.

I am curious to know how others on the list have gone over the edge.

Bill Welch


Re: Unproduced freight cars.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

During our era, livestock was commonly shipped all over the country. It was a huge industry, and the meat packing industry that was served was huge also. We were then (and still are) a meat-eating people!

1) Grass-fed cattle from the southwest and plains states were transported by the millions to Iowa, and Illinois farms for fattening on grain (corn) prior to slaughter.

2) These "fat cattle" were then transported again by the millions for slaughter to the centralized meat packing house centers of Chicago, Kansas City, Omaha, St. Paul, Albany, Los Angeles and San Francisco (among others).

3) Cattle of all sorts and breeds were also mass transported across country in all directions everywhere imaginable merely to build and rebuild herds

4) I have not mentioned the transport of fat hogs to markets as far away as Iowa to California, or the transport of sheep to market, but also between summer and winter grazing areas (and v.v.).

So, just with this knowledge, it becomes eminently understandable why one should not be the least bit surprised to find a Milwaukee or C&NW stock car in Los Angeles, a Pennsy car in Des Moines, or a Rock Island car in Albany, NY- in all a potential field day for the critical modeler! The nature of the business was no respecter of the territories of individual railroads.

Times have changed, of course. The meat packing industry is now completely decentralized. Cattle are no longer fattened on the individual family farm, feed lots nearer to the markets now serving the same purpose. Instead of shipping the cattle to the grain, the grain is now shipped (by TRUCK) to the cattle.

To get an idea of the historical scope of this business, understand that the millions of acres of corn historically grown in Illinois, Iowa and adjacent states was not then (or is now) for human consumption (it tastes terrible). It was grown then only for one reason: livestock feed (of course, now there are other uses as well, oil and alcohol).

Disclosure: My family forebears were all Iowa farmers who historically most commonly purchased cattle in western Nebraska and South Dakota, shipped them to their Iowa farms for fattening, and lastly shipped them once again to the Chicago markets for slaughter.

To sort of illustrate my thoughts, my very favorite photo of a Milwaukee Road stock car is a wonderful color view of a loaded car hanging on the tender of a UP Challenger or Big Boy (they look alike, don't they?) at the head of a long drag on Sherman Hill.

Denny




--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Orange/Grey GP9 by Western Pacific.

Arnold van Heyst
 

Sirs,

Me again.
In the 50's, did the Orange/Grey GP9 by Western Pacific also travelled
with the U.P. GP9 types on U.P. tracks?

I can buy a very cheap proto 2000 loc, but i want to know for shure.

Regards,
Arnold van Heyst,
Netherlands.


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Pieter Roos
 

I suspect that part of the problem is that the B&O "wagon top" round
roof and X29 are both distinctive enough to warrent some attention.
To a majority of the market place the 1932 car probably looks "just
like" the 1937 AAR boxcar that is already available in plastic. I
might guess that part of the success of the Red Caboose X29 and
Kadee PS-1s is that they have obviously better quality detail than
earlier models of the same cars - clearly evident to people who
might have no idea that they are also more accurate. If a new 1932
AAR car were clearly superior in detail to the existing AAR kits it
might well sell as simply a "better" steel boxcar.

I would think that arguably anything from Ted's "Essential Freight
Cars" series, except the handful Ted himself designated as "un-
essential" like the vinegar tank car, would warrent consideration as
a mass-produced model. Probably not all the variations of the single
sheathed cars that are close to the Accurail model, but most of the
resin-only kits that make the cut for the series should qualify. I
know they are all already "available" as resin kits, but what
percentage of modelers can even FIND a Sunshine kit much less build
a bunch of them.

Pieter Roos


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:


Denis Blake says about the "32 car":

No matter what a few of us on this list
think, the Seaboard Air Line and the Missouri Pacific, being the
major
owners of these cars, do not have enough sales potential to
justify the
production of these cars....
Perhaps. If so, then such other, even more unique cars such as the
B&O round
top or even the X29 would not be viable. Yes, the X29 might not be
strictly
Pennsy but it certainly isn't a car of a number of well known
RR's. As the
MR public DOES become more aware, hopefully, projects such as
the "32" will
become more "doable".

Mike Brock


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:46:05 -0000, jerryglow2 wrote
Even I will admit X29s are "universal" regardless of road modeled. I
remember the 1st resin kit I bought was one of Al's USRA single
sheathed cars and I agonized over what road to choose. Even as an
avowed "Pennsy hater" at the time, I had to admit that was the best
choice due to sheer numbers and visibility.
Jerry, it sounds like you are confusing the X29 with the PRR X26, or are
these two distinct thoughts?

Brian Carlson


Re: Unproduced frt cars

jerryglow2
 

Even I will admit X29s are "universal" regardless of road modeled. I
remember the 1st resin kit I bought was one of Al's USRA single
sheathed cars and I agonized over what road to choose. Even as an
avowed "Pennsy hater" at the time, I had to admit that was the best
choice due to sheer numbers and visibility.

But going back to Dennis' comment about the '32 cars taking that
further, you could rule out just about anything. I guess we could
just take the Walthers approach and just paint it in the "holy 13"
and let the modelers sort it out themselves. :(

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:


Denis Blake says about the "32 car":

No matter what a few of us on this list
think, the Seaboard Air Line and the Missouri Pacific, being the
major
owners of these cars, do not have enough sales potential to
justify the
production of these cars....
Perhaps. If so, then such other, even more unique cars such as the
B&O round
top or even the X29 would not be viable. Yes, the X29 might not be
strictly
Pennsy but it certainly isn't a car of a number of well known
RR's. As the
MR public DOES become more aware, hopefully, projects such as
the "32" will
become more "doable".

Mike Brock


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

I have two new (HO) candidates not yet mentioned.

First are the postwar rebuild box cars. They are distinctive in their
side sill adaptation of wide bodies to narrower AAR underframes. My
particular interest is in the PRR X29b's and d's, But other RRS did
the same. Tichy makes a model of an obscure PMcK&Y car like this, but
its dimensions are inappropriate for any other road.

The second candidate is a small tank car. Trix botched the 6k gal cars
recently and no one else has ever attempting anything like it. There
were some very interesting 4-6k gal cars, often in the ever popular
colorful schemes of private owners. I have kitbashed a model of a 4k
gal Ethyl tank car,
(http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/models/millera/ebax3064main.h
tml) but would love a kit for others like it.

regards,

Andy Miller


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Denis Blake says about the "32 car":

No matter what a few of us on this list
think, the Seaboard Air Line and the Missouri Pacific, being the major
owners of these cars, do not have enough sales potential to justify the
production of these cars....
Perhaps. If so, then such other, even more unique cars such as the B&O round top or even the X29 would not be viable. Yes, the X29 might not be strictly Pennsy but it certainly isn't a car of a number of well known RR's. As the MR public DOES become more aware, hopefully, projects such as the "32" will become more "doable".

Mike Brock


Re: Unproduced frt cars

seaboard_1966
 

The 32 car would be an excellent car and I have discussed this car with a major manufacturer and they have said that there are too many variations to make it a profitable venture. Too many roofs and end variations that would cost too much to tool up and produce. Also, the lack of MAJOR roads owning these cars is a problem as well. No matter what a few of us on this list think, the Seaboard Air Line and the Missouri Pacific, being the major owners of these cars, do not have enough sales potential to justify the production of these cars....

Denis Blake
Columbus, OH

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@comcast.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Unproduced frt cars


I agree although think the '32 ARA/AAR would be more desireable as
it goes more to the heart of this list's era of concentration. The
Fowler car trails off considerably - I know I have a few of Al's and
will run them in my late 40's sessions but drop for 50s. Of course
as a MP modeler, I'm prejudiced as they were a big user of the '32
car which was seen in various sub roads, variations of paint scheme
etc.

Jerry Glow


Re: Unproduced frt cars

jerryglow2
 

"Readily available" is the byword as Sunshine cars aren't necessarily
continuouly available if at all.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@c...> wrote:


I don't disagree with that choice Greg, but I usually don't ask
for plastic versions of cars that are already available in very
high quality resin, especially if I only want 1 or 2. I'd like to
see more NYC rebuilds (esp. postwar) in resin...

Tim O.


Re: Unproduced frt cars

jerryglow2
 

I agree although think the '32 ARA/AAR would be more desireable as
it goes more to the heart of this list's era of concentration. The
Fowler car trails off considerably - I know I have a few of Al's and
will run them in my late 40's sessions but drop for 50s. Of course
as a MP modeler, I'm prejudiced as they were a big user of the '32
car which was seen in various sub roads, variations of paint scheme
etc.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Earl Tuson" <etuson@s...> wrote:

I would suggest the 40' "Fowler" box cars.
lots of snipping
They shouldn't be any worse to tackle than an injection molded '32
ARA/AAR, and were numerically more significant when considering the
total built.

Earl Tuson


GSC "Commonwealth" 54' Flat Cars.

Arnold van Heyst
 

Sirs,

For which railroad in mid 50's is this type correct?
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-3776
(And i still don't have the 8.000 gallon UTLX car by Proto 2000,
who is willing to sell one of they're unbuiled kits?)

Regards,
Arnold van Heyst
Netherlands.


Can there be a car for most RR's?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim Gilbert says:

"Just like Boxcars, there were "generic" designs for hoppers, gons &
general service flat cars which, if released in kit or RTR form, could
make such releases "money makers." It would be best to ascertain what
these generic designs were, and provide manufacturers with information
as to what roads had them."

And, Richard Hendrickson says:

"A case
might be made for modeling the latter in styrene, but models of C&NW
stock cars would only be correct for the C&NW, etc., and barring
profound changes in the marketplace I can't imagine a mfr. of
injection-molded styrene models making the substantial investment in
tooling that would be required. That's why I wrote earlier that such
cars are a better bet in resin than styrene (and note that Westerfield
and Sunshine already offer a number of models for, e.g., MILW and MP
stock cars which will almost certainly never be offered in styrene).
FWIW, I have photos showing C&NW and D&RGW stock cars off-line in
places as far away from home rails as Southern California, Southern
Arizona, and Western Washington."

Greg Martin adds:

I have seen plenty CNW stock cars on the PRR in the mid-50's, perhaps more
than PRR stock cars as well as NP and "Q" cars... So, why not a good styrene
"Q" stock car and a good CNW stock car? They would sell.


Tim, Richard and Greg note the fact that stock cars are rather unique to specific RR's. One might argue that there is some analogy to...gasp...a variety of N&W hoppers which, while unique, were built in great numbers and could be found all over the industrial midwest and Pochantas region. From what we read, it appears that stock cars may have wandered even more...perhaps in a similar vein to box cars. In recent yrs, due to strenuous efforts by many that inhabit the STMFC, the fact that foreign frt cars are a GOOD thing may be getting through to at least those that inhabit the STMFC. Will that notion ever be understood by the general buying public? Probably not but, if it was, a car unique to a single RR that went far and wide would be a viable choice I would think. IOW, it MIGHT not be necessary to produce a frt car common to 5 or so RR's IF the buying public knew the car would be found on their choice of RR...no matter WHICH RR...and in multiples...as Greg suggests.

Mike Brock


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Earl Tuson
 

Dave Nelson suggested:

* one or more single sheathed, low height boxcars, such as the C&NW 1921
standard;
I would suggest the 40' "Fowler" box cars. Available in urethane in HO (Westerfield,) styrene in O (San Juan) and TT (Gold Coast,) and soon in styrene in S (Gold Coast aka Pacific Rail Shops,) it might be a good injection molded car for HO, as similar cars were used by: CNW-7000 cars, CMO-1500, CRI&P-8200, D&RG-1500, M&StL-500 + 602 second hand, MR-15, and RF&P-200. Some RI cars also later went to Salzberg shortlines. Certainly, there are detail differences among the roads' cars (e.g. single sheathed ends on most with steel ends on all RF&P cars, the M&StL cars that came from RF&P, and some CRI&P cars.) However, keep in mind that these were from well before the era of standardized freight car designs (built from 1913 into the 1920's (I don't have the dates on the later steel end CRI&P cars handy.)) They shouldn't be any worse to tackle than an injection molded '32 ARA/AAR, and were numerically more significant when considering the total built.

Earl Tuson


Re: Can there be a car for most RR's?

Greg Martin
 

In part Mike closes with:

"IF the buying public knew the car would be found on their choice of RR...no
matter WHICH RR...and in multiples...as Greg suggests.

Mike Brock"


Mike's marketing abilities are gleaming through...

Richard and I make a practice of reviewing marketable prototypes at the end
of each summer and the list continues to grow, some are covered as was the
case with the 65-foot mill gondola and others are still on the "hit list".

The market is ready for several "stand alone" prototypes such as the B&O
Covered Wagon Box car (by the way we believe has been tooled just not released)
and the NYC AAR 40-foot box (with both ends) is an other good example of a
car that needs to be done and just hasn't. Others include the Santa Fe Re-built
reefers with plug doors, who could refuse a few of these in a consist (other
than those that don't model the depth of the transition era?) and how about
the Santa Fe RR-54 to 56 early mechanicals? But what Mike says rings true...

Not taking anything away from Ted Culotta's efforts in RMC on his series of
essential freight cars, but if I could make one criticism of the effort, it
is that it stops short of the true freight car revolution. It fails to deal
with the PS-1's in it's continuing evolution of roof changes, end changes and
underframe changes, as well as AC&F's entries into welded cars. However; the
good that Ted has done is to raise the bar on awareness and to that end I
compliment him.

Perhaps what we do need is a parallel set of articles that introduce the
cars where Ted leaves off. Can a working stiff like myself do it alone, NO WAY!
I don't have the luxury of being at home as I am the primary bread winner.
Sound familiar? Well, the goal should still be that we meet the goal head on
and if we were all as proactive as say Monte Switzer and did at least one
article a year on the era from 1948 through and including 1960 then we would
attract even more attention to the general public and to ourselves with the
producers. Let's face it, Richard Hendrickson and Ted Culotta can not accomplish
all that we need to have them do... They shouldn't...

All of us have a special interest in our Railroad and our little part of the
world, even Elden doesn't want to model the PRR in Philly... So, if we were
to put forth just one article a year to a given magazine then we might
achieve our goal in about 25 years or so... 3^) Sometimes, I just like to think
outside the box, and work on a "lark" as they say, like the KCS car, but I
guarantee you I have other motives for this Cross-kit-conversion and it will lead
to the PRR at some point... But as I have said I have 1 NP stock car and I
have scratch-kit-bits from my brothers "Q" cars that appeared in MM, but I
want several and I want a CNW car as well, and why because the photo evidence
shows they were their regardless of the national stat's... I want Santa Fe plug
door rebuilt reefers and I want several and mechanicals, be them ATSF, PFE
or FGE prototypes... We are far from done. The pipeline needs to remain full
for at least tem more years and as we pass then the Baby boomer can complete
their wish list with the next generation MR producers...


So to believe that prototype specific cars will not sell is silly and I
think some may just have their heads in the sand. Numbers don't lie and look at
the sales of the R50b and I know of at least two fellows that turned me down
on the project...

"We want the world and we want it now!"

Greg Martin


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@b...> wrote:

Jeff English notes about the number of unproduced models of frt cars
[ in
HO scale ]:

My point is only that there's plenty more to be produced and we're
not out of the woods yet.
<snip>
My first choice for category #1...from a strictly unbiased point of
view:

The AAR Alternatre Standfard 34 ft offset side hopper car.

Mike Brock....running for cover
I'd like to second the motion. AAR Alternate Standard 34 ft. offset
side hopper car would be nice.
Gene Green


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Scott Pitzer
 

He means
Walthers "ex-Life-Like" Proto 2000 line.
Scott Pitzer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: sseders@comcast.net
Sent: Dec 26, 2005 9:20 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Unproduced frt cars

Tim O'Connor wrote

If you want to sell a billion flat cars, bring out a really well detailed
52'6" TOFC flat with two well done trailers, and then bring it out in 42
paint schemes. I just hope when someone finally wakes up and smells this
coffee that the car they choose is an SP F-70-10, but most likely is that
Walthers will realize their AAR flat is a potential gold mine. Of course
it has to be better than the ancient Athearn model or it will fall flat.
Hobbyists will pay for high quality, Kadee proved that.


Has Walthers announced an AAR flat car or is this one of the "well kept secrets" :) of upcoming models?

Scott Seders







Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: RCJ/RPC/Clubs/etc.

Justin Kahn
 

I always think of Rail Car Journal as "Cockle (editor)" rather than "Kratville (publisher)." I have almost a complete set (lacking only the second issue on refrigerator, which seems to be particularly popular) with a few extras. I find it often useful, although more limited than I should like, as they have a number of unusual historical views. So far as I can tell, most of the captions are accurate (unlike the laughable H&M series).
I have some of the Casdorph, which were all over the map (topically and choronologically); they have their uses, if one can pick and choose which issues to buy.
A last thought about RPC's direction: I make no apologies for favoring shortlines (which mostly solves the problem of being able to operate fully without joining a club), so while I have some passenger equipment, it is scarcely class I. Virtually all common freight cars can logically appear on the C&C, but frontline passenger equipment, such as the lightweights of #11, are of negligible use to me. I applaud Pat and Ed's decision to a division of responsibility with Ted Culotta on modeling articles, as we minority-scale modelers will not feel so marginalized in choosing between them.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:35:01 -0800
From: Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: freight car magazines

Ed Mines wrote:
Anyone know the story of the Kratville series of freight car magazines
printed around 1980?
Not sure what Ed means by "story" here. They are a most
miscellaneous collection of photos, obviously whatever Bill had at
hand, with many oddball cars and a certain number of railroad PR
photos, and sometimes erroneous captions. That said, they can be useful
sources of info. I have issues 1 through 5, which I think is all there
ever were. You see them for sale occasionally. Bill told me that the
sales were abysmal.

How about the "Freight Car Journal"? I subscribed (or was a member)
for a while but the subject matter didn't interest me - it was mostly
current stuff but every so often a pre1900 drawing would show up. This
magazine
(or society) is long defunct, right?
I'm not sure if it's still around, though someone on the list
will know. My reaction was exactly like yours: poor focus, and a
tendency to do contemporary cars (they did do a nice issue on the
historical IC fleet).

"Prototype Modeler" and it's predicessor regional magazines had a lot
of freight car articles. I was sorry when they stopped publishing.
Richard hendrickson wrote some articles for them. I wonder what the
story was?
Money (not enough of it) after it was sold. Richard Hendrickson
may want to add more.

Tony Thompson
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