Date   

Re: Unproduced frt cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 25, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote, responding to Tim Gilbert:

... manufacturers can be reasonably reluctant to release kits or RTR
versions of models of these stock cars because of lack of perceived market.
Yes!

This is the accepted conventional wisdom, and is applied universally except
when it is not applied, which is quite often -- That's why we have Pfaudler
milk cars (both steel and wood), Santa Fe and UP and PRR stock cars, PRR and
N&W hopper cars, an ART reefer which numbered a whopping 450, and so on.
And there are some models in the works which will tax the conventional wisdom even further. If they sell well (let's hope they do!), the conventional wisdom will look more and more like outdated mythology.

A better case for marketing can be made for specific hoppers, gons &
flat cars appearing on a variety of railroads ...
You seem to be operating under the delusion that the hobby market cares
about prototypical operations. What the market goes for is often a mystery.
Lots of gaudy paint schemes really helps. Appeal to a large segment like
PRR modelers helps a lot too. There are many cars that travelled on almost
every railroad for 30-40 years but we'll probably never get models of them
(like the UTLX X-3's) because of the simple fact that most buyers are not
interested in the prototype.
I'd rephrase that to "most buyers don't know enough to be interested in the prototype." But that's changing, thanks in part to the efforts of modeler/researchers like some of the subscribers on this list and in part to the fact that the population of "train set bozos" is in decline while many of those who remain in the hobby are getting more serious about modeling the prototype, both equipment and operations, instead of just running trains around in circles. So while the market gets gradually smaller, it also gets gradually smarter, and those who are hanging in there seem increasingly willing to pay substantial prices if what their money buys them is quality and accuracy.

"What the market goes for is often a mystery." Ain't that the truth. And no less true for the manufacturers' sales guys than for us. The only hard data they have about what the market wants is the sales figures for the stuff they and other manufacturers have already produced, and even when they have those numbers, they're largely guessing about why product X sold well and product Y did not. Their judgments are based largely on a mix of random impressions, personal biases, and the random impressions and personal biases of their distributors and retailers. With the exception of a small number of knowledgeable dealers like Ron Sebastian, Fred Hill, and Mike Flick, the information they get from distributors and retailers is often worse than worthless. I've heard hobby shop owners say things that, when reduced to the essentials, go something like this: "When company A brought out product B, I knew they wouldn't sell, so I didn't stock them, and guess what? I was right, they didn't sell."

What we have on our side is the fact that a number of individuals and companies are crazy enough to want to continue producing freight car models when they could have fewer headaches and make more money investing in hog futures. And since the list of obvious prototypes that can be accurately (or even semi-accurately) painted and lettered for a whole bunch of prototype railroads is now a very short list indeed, the only way they can continue to pursue this nutty business is to model some of the prototypes we keep asking for but which don't conform with the conventional wisdom cited above. Will styrene UTLX X-3s sell well enough to pay for the tooling? No one will know until some manufacturer bites the bullet and produces them. The next two or three years are going to be very interesting.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Stock Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote

36 hours was ample time for the UP to get stock from northern
Utah to Los Angeles on its Day Livestock Service trains ...
Actually, just barely enough time is more like it. The LA&SL was
UP's toughest territory, and 10-20 mph schedules were typical for
freight. UP got its money's worth out of "100 mile days" on that
route!


Re: Stock Cars

ljack70117@...
 

On Dec 27, 2005, at 8:06 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Dec 27, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Larry Jackman < ljack70117@adelphia.net>
wrote:

When I was on the Un Pac in the late 40s and early 50s the on car
time was 28 hours and 36 hours if release was signed. Also on both
the Un Pac ad Santa Fe we put them back on the same cars they came
off of.
Thanks for the correction, Larry; you're quite right about the
post-WW-II rules. The 18/24 hour rules I cited were in effect in
earlier years. 36 hours was ample time for the UP to get stock from
northern Utah to Los Angeles on its Day Livestock Service trains and
for the Santa Fe to move stock from New Mexico and Arizona to LA
without unloading the animals for food/water/rest – regardless of
whether they were in company or foreign-road stock cars.

Richard Hendrickson
One more thing. Those that were on the car for 36 hours could not be
reloaded for 10 hours. The sad part was they would be in such bad
shape from standing that long the all they wanted to do was lay down
and did not eat or drink for at least 8 hours and some were reloaded
in 10 hours with out taking water or food. It was a sad sight to see
them.
When we received car loads headed for the "Flint Hills" west of
Emporia and they were on short time they would get special handling.
We would have a train called, waiting for their train to arrive and
they would be out of town in less than one hour headed west to the
"Hills".
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Re: GSC "Commonwealth" 54' Flat Cars.

Tim O'Connor
 

1951 -- GM&O 72000-72049
1952 -- ATSF 93275-93286
ATSF 93300-93499
MKT 15301-15325
1953 GM&O several groups w/ bulkheads
1954 ATSF 93500-93799
RDG 9300-9356
WABASH 100-249 (spread out orders to 1956)

and no doubt others...

Tim O.

For which railroad in mid 50's is this type correct?
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-3776
(And i still don't have the 8.000 gallon UTLX car by Proto 2000,
who is willing to sell one of they're unbuiled kits?)

Regards,
Arnold van Heyst
Netherlands.


Re: Stock Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 27, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Larry Jackman < ljack70117@adelphia.net>
wrote:

When I was on the Un Pac in the late 40s and early 50s the on car
time was 28 hours and 36 hours if release was signed. Also on both
the Un Pac ad Santa Fe we put them back on the same cars they came
off of.
Thanks for the correction, Larry; you're quite right about the
post-WW-II rules. The 18/24 hour rules I cited were in effect in
earlier years. 36 hours was ample time for the UP to get stock from
northern Utah to Los Angeles on its Day Livestock Service trains and
for the Santa Fe to move stock from New Mexico and Arizona to LA
without unloading the animals for food/water/rest – regardless of
whether they were in company or foreign-road stock cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Stock Cars

ljack70117@...
 

On Dec 27, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Dec 27, 2005, at 1:34 PM, sshaffer wrote:

Livestock had to be off loaded every so many hours for feed and rest.
On
the Santa Fe it was common practice to reload the livestock on a Santa
Fe
car to continue the journey and send the foreign car home. So for now
I see
no need for any but Santa Fe stock cars in the area I model. Though
as I
gain knowledge of car movements, interchange, locations where the
livestock
were fed and rested I may change my requirements.
Steve what area do you model? You're certainly correct that reloading
stock into Santa Fe cars was common practice, but that assumes the
stock was unloaded in the first place, which was often not the case
(the rule was 18 hours, or 24 hours if the shipper signed a waiver, as
many did). Offhand, I can't think of any part of the Santa Fe that
wasn't frequented by off-line stock cars, as demonstrated by abundant
photographic and documentary evidence.

Richard Hendrickson
When I was on the Un Pac in the late 40s and early 50s the on car time was 28 hours and 36 hours if release was signed. Also on both the Un Pac ad Santa Fe we put them back on the same cars they came off of.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch asked:
I am curious to know how others on the list have gone over the edge.
Once when I was scratchbuilding an asymmetrical tank car (center dome and a dome at one end), I had made the center sills and was applying rivet strips everywhere there would be rivets, including places which would never be visible once the car was assembled. I remember stopping in the middle and asking myself, "what am I doing here??" I will now confess that I did not finish putting on all the invisible rivets. (The car did do well in NMRA contests once finished, having survived a drop to the floor--but that's another story.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

Tony Thompson
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Bill, you need counseling.

In fact, perhaps you should become the founding member of a new
organization called "Rivet Counters Anonymous" which would have
discreet meetings in hotel rooms at Naperville, Cocoa Beach, etc.
I assume this organization would have a 12-step program, but for the really seriously disturbed (those drilling separate holes to insert each rivet), more steps would be needed . . . sometimes MANY more . . .
Richard, you should bring your lapel badge to Cocoa: the one that says "Rivets Count."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

eabracher@...
 

In a message dated 12/27/05 6:50:31 PM, tgmadden@worldnet.att.net writes:


Back in my narrow gauge days, when I was younger and had better
eyesight, I built one of Eric Bracher's early D&RGW flanger kits. This
was pre-Rio Grande Models when his company was named Precision
something or other.
It was called precision Models. i changed the name when two other
Presicion somethings came along.

My extreme job was when i was building a model of D&RGW rotary OM in hon3.
I drilled the ends of each grab iron and soldered in .007 stainless wire (was
US Army WD-40 commo wire) and mounted each as the prototype did.

eric bracher/owner of Rio Grande Models


Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill, on a more modern tank car, I built up a platform and handrails
out of etched brass running boards and brass strip & wire. To support
the platforms I made brackets (welded, no rivets!). But to get the
right depth of the running boards which are 2" on the prototype, I
soldered flat brass wire at 90 degrees to the stainless steel Apex
grid platforms, along its edge. Since I am terrible at soldering
this was a real chore and took me hours to do... I added many other
delicate looking details but the brass wire & solder has held up
really well -- 10 years and no damage yet in spite of a year on a
club layout.

Tim O.

I do enjoy stretching myself like this, while at the same time
thinking this is truly nuts. I am sure this started when I started
modeling the drooping chain that is connected to the brake cylinder.
Ironically I don't try to model cut levers.

I am curious to know how others on the list have gone over the edge.

Bill Welch


Re: Extreme Modeling/how crazy am I!?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 27, 2005, at 10:36 AM, lnbill wrote:

I am curious to know how others on the list have gone over the edge.
Bill, you need counseling.

In fact, perhaps you should become the founding member of a new organization called "Rivet Counters Anonymous" which would have discreet meetings in hotel rooms at Naperville, Cocoa Beach, etc.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Stock Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 27, 2005, at 1:34 PM, sshaffer wrote:

Livestock had to be off loaded every so many hours for feed and rest. On
the Santa Fe it was common practice to reload the livestock on a Santa Fe
car to continue the journey and send the foreign car home. So for now I see
no need for any but Santa Fe stock cars in the area I model. Though as I
gain knowledge of car movements, interchange, locations where the livestock
were fed and rested I may change my requirements.
Steve what area do you model? You're certainly correct that reloading stock into Santa Fe cars was common practice, but that assumes the stock was unloaded in the first place, which was often not the case (the rule was 18 hours, or 24 hours if the shipper signed a waiver, as many did). Offhand, I can't think of any part of the Santa Fe that wasn't frequented by off-line stock cars, as demonstrated by abundant photographic and documentary evidence.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I spent some time this afternoon reading many of the posts in this thread. At first I thought"What are these guys bitching about?" Then I thought that of course that hopper car is needed. We need plastic models of cars were need lots of. I don't mind building a resin kit of a stock car. But, I don't want to build 5 or 6 Milwaukee resin stock car kits. There are no CNW models, so I'm looking at kitbashing something, but again I need at least four. I would love to have Milwaukee and CNW stock cars made in plastic.
I have chosen to kitbash a meat reefer I need a least a dozen of. Because I need a dozen particular reefers doesn't mean a manufacturer should build that model. But, a meat reefer would be nice. UTLX tanks cars would make sense also. I'm not going to build one Sunshine model, but I'd buy several plastic models.
My quick thoughts,
Clark Propst


Re: Unproduced freight cars.

s shaffer
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@macnexus.org>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Unproduced freight cars.


So, just with this knowledge, it becomes eminently understandable why
one should not be the least bit surprised to find a Milwaukee or C&NW
stock car in Los Angeles, a Pennsy car in Des Moines, or a Rock
Island car in Albany, NY- in all a potential field day for the
critical modeler! The nature of the business was no respecter of the
territories of individual railroads.
Livestock had to be off loaded every so many hours for feed and rest. On
the Santa Fe it was common practice to reload the livestock on a Santa Fe
car to continue the journey and send the foreign car home. So for now I see
no need for any but Santa Fe stock cars in the area I model. Though as I
gain knowledge of car movements, interchange, locations where the livestock
were fed and rested I may change my requirements.

Steve Shaffer


Re: Train Consists

Tony Thompson
 

Replying to:
> There are, of course, further geographical-west points on the
> SP, such as Davenport . . . or downtown SF . . . or practically
> all of the NWP. As for "railroad west," it was always defined as
> San Francisco, with "milepost zero" being at the ferry apron on the
> Embarcadero. It is interesting to imagine that string of MT reefers
> being consigned to the State Belt Railway along the SF waterfront,
> so as to get within a few dozen feet of milepost zero . . . nah,
> probably not.
Shawn Beckert wrote:
Not as far-fetched as you think, Tony:

http://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfphotos/AAC-2173.jpg

Shawn Beckert, the first reefer doesn't look like PFE though...
Yep, there are plenty of photos of reefers, many of them PFE, along the Embarcadero--of course what I was referring to was whether that Cheyenne conductor writing "west" would have sent them there . . . but you knew that <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Train Consists

Shawn Beckert
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

There are, of course, further geographical-west points on the
SP, such as Davenport . . . or downtown SF . . . or practically
all of the NWP. As for "railroad west," it was always defined as
San Francisco, with "milepost zero" being at the ferry apron on the
Embarcadero. It is interesting to imagine that string of MT reefers
being consigned to the State Belt Railway along the SF waterfront,
so as to get within a few dozen feet of milepost zero . . . nah,
probably not.
Not as far-fetched as you think, Tony:

http://webbie1.sfpl.org/multimedia/sfphotos/AAC-2173.jpg

Shawn Beckert, the first reefer doesn't look like PFE though...


Re: Unproduced frt cars

Pieter Roos
 

Yes, I know it's shorter (and it's been noted that its WIDER as
well, so just cutting down a 1937 car is less than ideal).
My point was that most sales of an injection molded kit would be to
people (presumably not on this list) who would neither notice nor
consider it important if it was called to their attention that it
was 6 inches shorter, however important that be to us. Alas that
people on this list do not comprise "a majority of the market place"
for these products. The Milw rib side and PRR X31 round roof cars
are other examples that are available in styrene, although not many
roadnames can be applied to them. Again, they are obviously
different from an Athearn "Bluebox" kit so just about any modeler
can see it is not just "another boxcar".

Pieter Roos


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@c...> wrote:

Ahem, no it dosen't - it's 6" shorter in height. If that were the
case, why bother with the '37 and "modified '37" or '42 car or
whatever you want to call it. Once again "only" 6" difference in
height. Aside from my personal prejudice as a MP modeler, IMHO,
the '32 is a "historically significant" car by design. It just
happened to be introduced in the Depression era when car orders
were
minimal. For whatever their reasons MP bought big on them, they
never
did buy the '37 car having enough of the former. T&P did buy
some '37
cars which our estemed Mr Hawkins did in a limited run years ago
using
the Jerry Porter tooled IMWX (now Red Caboose) car.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@y...>
wrote:

I suspect that part of the problem is that the B&O "wagon top"
round
roof and X29 are both distinctive enough to warrent some
attention.
To a majority of the market place the 1932 car probably
looks "just
like" the 1937 AAR boxcar that is already available in plastic.
Pieter Roos


Re: Unproduced freight cars.

jerryglow2
 

OOPs sounds like Denny might wind up in the "penalty box" for that
one. <g>

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@m...> wrote:


To sort of illustrate my thoughts, my very favorite photo of a
Milwaukee Road stock car is a wonderful color view of a loaded car
hanging on the tender of a UP Challenger or Big Boy (they look
alike,
don't they?) at the head of a long drag on Sherman Hill.

Denny


Re: Unproduced frt cars

jerryglow2
 

Ahem, no it dosen't - it's 6" shorter in height. If that were the
case, why bother with the '37 and "modified '37" or '42 car or
whatever you want to call it. Once again "only" 6" difference in
height. Aside from my personal prejudice as a MP modeler, IMHO,
the '32 is a "historically significant" car by design. It just
happened to be introduced in the Depression era when car orders were
minimal. For whatever their reasons MP bought big on them, they never
did buy the '37 car having enough of the former. T&P did buy some '37
cars which our estemed Mr Hawkins did in a limited run years ago using
the Jerry Porter tooled IMWX (now Red Caboose) car.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@y...> wrote:

I suspect that part of the problem is that the B&O "wagon top" round
roof and X29 are both distinctive enough to warrent some attention.
To a majority of the market place the 1932 car probably looks "just
like" the 1937 AAR boxcar that is already available in plastic. >
Pieter Roos


Re: Unproduced frt cars

jerryglow2
 

No I realize they are both separate cars both deserving
representation in one's fleet regardless of road modeled. I think
the personal story was just to emphasize how influential the PRR was
and should be in one's "mix" Sorry Mike and other UPers - as a MP
modeler it's a personal thing and you can get me to extend the same
consideration....

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian J Carlson" <brian@b...> wrote:

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:46:05 -0000, jerryglow2 wrote
Even I will admit X29s are "universal" regardless of road
modeled. I
remember the 1st resin kit I bought was one of Al's USRA single
sheathed cars and I agonized over what road to choose. Even as
an
avowed "Pennsy hater" at the time, I had to admit that was the
best
choice due to sheer numbers and visibility.
Jerry, it sounds like you are confusing the X29 with the PRR X26,
or are
these two distinct thoughts?

Brian Carlson

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