Date   

Re: RMJ articles

mopacfirst
 

Furthermore, the second article has some photos of cars that belong in
the first article (perhaps weren't available then, or balancing the
page count?) Anyway, if you're interested in the Athearn version
you'll need both articles.

Ron Merrick


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@n...> wrote:

Clark,
You haven't been paying attention to the title or the content of
the
articles that are about 2893 cu. ft. PS-2s. > Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Ed,
I bought the magazines in a Twin Cities hobby shop the night before
we left for Florida and haven't read them yet.
Thanks for clarifying the differences for dummy me.
Thanks for the quick response,
Clark Propst


Re: Freight car flooring

Fred Mitchell
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:

The American Lumber and
Treating Co. ran full page ads in the Car Builders' Cyclopedias (e.g.,
1946, p.1310) for "Wolmanized" treated lumber, specifying such uses as
"flat and gondola car decking," among others. This process apparently
didn't significantly change the color of the wood.<
I have recently been using a lot of "Wolmanized" wood in a house
restoration project. Wolmanized wood, at least Southern pine wood, is
usually
a distinct olive drab color when new. It weathers to more of a tan color.

It's my understanding that our friends the EPA have brought about the
end of the Wolmanizing era on the grounds that the treatment leaches
into the ground and water. The new process will use some other
chemicals, and of course will be more expensive.

Fred Mitchell, Dallas


Re: Freight car flooring

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

I'm absolutely certain that the AC&F BOMs precisely define the specifications for the
lumber used for the deck planks. The problem is, my notes do not indicate what they say
in this regards. The BOMs can be examined at a future date. I have excellent 8x10" photos
showing the pristine decks of some Greenville flat cars and they look like untreated
lumber. Wolmanizing (pretreated) certainly is a strong possibility but creosoting must
remain highly unlikely.

Pat Wider

I'm getting confused..... Early on in this thread mention was made of
Bill Schaumberg's clinic on tie treatment plants, wherein lumber is
pressure treated with creosote _before_ it is put to use. I took that
to mean the question was whether flat car decking was similiarly pre-
treated, not whether AC&F (or any other car builder or railroad) was
coating the decking after (or when) it was applied to the car. Do the
BOMs say anything about the deck planks, Pat??

Tom Madden


Re: ACF type 27 8K Navy, Gas & Supply Co. (CTTX) reweigh questions.

Arnold van Heyst
 

So that happened also !!!!!!

Do you have some photo's for us all to see?

Arnold van heyst.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...>
wrote:

On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Arnold wrote:

Mr. Hendrickson,

Is there a UTLX car number list including the truck type they've
received between 1947 & 1960 (if known)?
If so, where to find it?
No. I have a 1952 UTL roster which includes a lot of information about
gallonage, heater coils, etc. but nothing about trucks. As is often
the case, you have to depend on photographic evidence (which sometimes
shows different trucks on the A and B ends of the same car).

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ACF type 27 8K Navy, Gas & Supply Co. (CTTX) reweigh questions.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Arnold wrote:

Mr. Hendrickson,

Is there a UTLX car number list including the truck type they've
received between 1947 & 1960 (if known)?
If so, where to find it?
No. I have a 1952 UTL roster which includes a lot of information about
gallonage, heater coils, etc. but nothing about trucks. As is often
the case, you have to depend on photographic evidence (which sometimes
shows different trucks on the A and B ends of the same car).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Freight car flooring

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

        I respect Greg's professional knowledge of wood and wood
treatment, but evidence suggests that the thinking he advocates was
simply not shared by railroad mechanical departments.
I have maintained a low profile on this topic while trying to find some
concrete evidence, as opposed to speculation. Unfortunately, I haven't
found much. In the '20s the Santa Fe did apply creosoted timber to at
least some flat car decks, and presumably if the Santa Fe did so, other
RRs did as well. (BTW, The fact that the Pennsy used untreated lumber
for flat car decks, cited by Bruce Smith, proves nothing, since there
is abundant evidence that the PRR was the non-standard railroad of the
world.) It's certainly true that in the photos Tony Thompson cites, as
well as others in my photo collection, most new flat car decks in the
'40s and '50s (but not all) do not appear to be creosoted. That does
not mean, however, that they were untreated. The American Lumber and
Treating Co. ran full page ads in the Car Builders' Cyclopedias (e.g.,
1946, p.1310) for "Wolmanized" treated lumber, specifying such uses as
"flat and gondola car decking," among others. This process apparently
didn't significantly change the color of the wood. Such lumber could
be supplied to the railroads and car builders pre-treated, and even
pre-cut to specified dimensions. No doubt other similar wood
treatments were also readily available. That the makers of such
treatments advertised in RR industry publications strikes me as prima
facie evidence that at least some railroads used or specified treated
lumber in freight car construction.

Some flat car decks may have been untreated. However, I would
re-phrase Tony's statement above as follows: "evidence suggests" [NB
does not prove] "that the thinking [Gregg] advocates was not shared by
some railroad mechanical departments."

Of course, the real issue for this list is what color to paint or stain
flat car decks. Here the evidence seems clear that, whether treated or
not, many of them were a natural wood color when first applied.
However, the weathering process, especially on untreated lumber,
rapidly (i.e., literally within weeks) turned them the grayish color
that is typical of weathered wood, to which was added the grungy
appearance caused by the dirt, soot, and other contaminants to which
all freight cars were exposed. It follows that the deck on a flat car
model should not look like new wood unless the model represents a car
fresh from the shops. Otherwise, the techniques exemplified by Stan
Rydarowicz (and which many of us have used in one form or another for
years) are appropriate.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: C&O black box

Rich Yoder
 

Hi Ron,
What data supports the thought that this car is black?
Rich Yoder

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Ron Morse" <ronstrainshop@mchsi.com>

C&O black box car photo has been posted.
Ron Morse
NYC/C&O O scale in Springfield,MO






Yahoo! Groups Links







ACF type 27 8K Navy, Gas & Supply Co. (CTTX) reweigh questions.

Arnold van Heyst
 

Mr. Hendrickson,

Is there a UTLX car number list including the truck type they've
received between 1947 & 1960 (if known)?
If so, where to find it?

Arnold van Heyst.


On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Arnold van Heyst. wrote:

Mr. Hendrickson,

Perhaps a strange/dumb question........
Is there prove whatsoever that some cars (for instance the Proto
2000 type 21 tank cars [UTLX?])
never received the ARA/AAR trucks, but still had the arch bar
trucks in mid 50's?
Arch bar trucks were banned in interchange in 1940. Here and there, a
tank car might have survived as late as the mid-'50s with arch bar
trucks, but only in company service (and even that is unlikely). All
cars in revenue service were required to have cast steel truck side
frames after 1940, whether Andrews or Vulcan with separate journal
boxes or ARA/AAR with integral journal boxes.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ACF type 27 8K Navy, Gas & Supply Co. (CTTX) reweigh questions.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:27 AM, Arnold van Heyst. wrote:

Mr. Hendrickson,
 
  Perhaps a strange/dumb question........
  Is there prove whatsoever that some cars (for instance the Proto
2000 type 21 tank cars [UTLX?])
  never received the ARA/AAR trucks, but still had the arch bar
trucks in mid 50's?
Arch bar trucks were banned in interchange in 1940. Here and there, a
tank car might have survived as late as the mid-'50s with arch bar
trucks, but only in company service (and even that is unlikely). All
cars in revenue service were required to have cast steel truck side
frames after 1940, whether Andrews or Vulcan with separate journal
boxes or ARA/AAR with integral journal boxes.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ATSF Wood Refrigerator Cars

Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/16/2006 6:19:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
rhendrickson@opendoor.com writes:

Brian, to be as brief as possible:


---> Thank you very much Richard. It's too bad that so many false "true
facts" are floating around out there. I appreciate the information you provided
and have printed it out for future reference. It will help a great deal.

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: questions about RDG freight cars,AHM box cars, Sunshine Seaboard/NC&StL box cars

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Jan 16, 2006, at 2:45 PM, ed_mines wrote:

Anyone consider themselves an expert on RDG freight cars in the
mid '40s? Have some diagrams?

My questions are -

What kind of 52 ft. steel gon did they have circa 1946? Greenville
(ribs going to the bottom of the fish belly) or Bethlehem (ribs end
at floor line). I have a picture of one of the from the RDG society
but can't find it. It may be neither as no HO models came from
either P2K or Sunshine.
Bethlehem and coming from Sunshine.
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/gon/rdgaarmain.html

RDG had 3 groups of steam era box cars similar to PRR X29s, right?
One had flat ends and roof with grab irons instead of ladders, right?
Another had 2 panel Murphy ends with a ribbed roof (Zenith roof?),
right? The third group was a little taller, with flat ends and roof,
right?

Was the roof on the car with the ribbed roof like the roof on the
old AHM double door, double sheathed box car? Forgetting the
underframe and trucks, I don't think that car looks too bad. Did it
have a prototype?

Lastly, has anyone compared the slightly taller RDG X29-like box
cars with similar cars modeled by Sunshine for Seaboard and NC&StL?
See http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/rdg102751main.html

The sides on the 32 ARA are very different than those on the Reading cars, which were USRA steel derivatives.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


C&O black box

Ron Morse <ronstrainshop@...>
 

C&O black box car photo has been posted.
Ron Morse
NYC/C&O O scale in Springfield,MO


tank car weighing

ed_mines
 

I agree many tank cars were rarely reweighed.

But when I worked in the chemical industry in the early '80s (Kay
Fries chemicals in Stony Point, NY) we would have tank cars weighed
before and after loading to ascetain exactly how material (diethyl
phthalate) was actually shipped.

The chemical was expensive and liquid measures are inaccurate compared
to weights.

I think covered hoppers containing expensive loadings might be
weighted too as the amount in a particular car can vary depending on
how tightly the powder is packed.

ED


Re: Freight car flooring

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@f...> wrote:

SAL mechanical department standards for '47 talk about painting flat
cars "except for woodwork"; they don't say whether the decks were
treated with anything. But the next standard is for wheel cars, and
definitely *does* mention creosoted wood (indirectly, as in don't paint
it). So on wheel cars, it'd seem that at least some of the wood was
creosoted. (1) Since wheel cars were often converted flats or gondolas,
would they be treated the same? (2) If builders didn't creosote new
cars per Mr. Hawkins's info, perhaps some railroads creosoted older
ones?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
A couple of points in general:

Creosote applied to the surface of the wood is next to worthless, so you won't find creosote listed in the BoM with the painting materials. If creosoted wood was to be used, the decking would be specified as pressure treated, then the amount of retention, then the species of wood. If the BoM just says "3" White Oak", then that's just what it means, naked 3" white oak plank.

Flatcar decks are structural, the load bears directly upon the decking, and it is expected to have blocking, etc. nailed to it with really BIG nails (60 penny nails, anyone?) The preferred wood was Oak, for its strength, and preferably White Oak, for its superior rot resistance. White oak was the preferred decking for truck trailers for many years, and they weren't treated. It may have been accepted wisdom in the railroad car departments that the deck was going to have to be replaced because it was broken, loose, and chewed up before it had a chance to rot, so why spend the money on treated lumber.

A wheel car, OTOH, carries its load on a rack of some sort; the decking acts as a walkway for the loading crew. Therefore it is not expected to be chewed up by the loading process. It may have been made from a wood of lesser strength, such as Southern Yellow Pine. When it rotted, it would require the rack to be removed to replace the planks, thereby making this a much larger job than replacement on a flatcar.

In addition, what the car builder used and what a railroad used for replacement were two different things. Some railroads might have seen an advantage in using treated lumber, others not. Some railroads might have used treated lumber because that was what was on hand. When I worked there years ago, all of the service flats on the Chicago Transit Authority rapid transit system were decked with creosoted yellow pine because that is what was stocked for use on station platforms, and no one bothered to special order lumber for car repair.

Dennis Storzek

Dennis Storzek


questions about RDG freight cars,AHM box cars, Sunshine Seaboard/NC&StL box cars

ed_mines
 

Anyone consider themselves an expert on RDG freight cars in the
mid '40s? Have some diagrams?

My questions are -

What kind of 52 ft. steel gon did they have circa 1946? Greenville
(ribs going to the bottom of the fish belly) or Bethlehem (ribs end
at floor line). I have a picture of one of the from the RDG society
but can't find it. It may be neither as no HO models came from
either P2K or Sunshine.

RDG had 3 groups of steam era box cars similar to PRR X29s, right?
One had flat ends and roof with grab irons instead of ladders, right?
Another had 2 panel Murphy ends with a ribbed roof (Zenith roof?),
right? The third group was a little taller, with flat ends and roof,
right?

Was the roof on the car with the ribbed roof like the roof on the
old AHM double door, double sheathed box car? Forgetting the
underframe and trucks, I don't think that car looks too bad. Did it
have a prototype?

Lastly, has anyone compared the slightly taller RDG X29-like box
cars with similar cars modeled by Sunshine for Seaboard and NC&StL?

Ed


Re: Freight car flooring

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Pat Wider wrote:

According to the notes that Ed Hawkins and I took while examining
the AC&F bills of materials, there wasn't a single instance where
AC&F coated the wood decks of flat cars with any substance
whatsoever throughout the 1940s and 1950s. Creosote would have
been specified in the bills of materials. They are definitive.
I'm getting confused..... Early on in this thread mention was made of
Bill Schaumberg's clinic on tie treatment plants, wherein lumber is
pressure treated with creosote _before_ it is put to use. I took that
to mean the question was whether flat car decking was similiarly pre-
treated, not whether AC&F (or any other car builder or railroad) was
coating the decking after (or when) it was applied to the car. Do the
BOMs say anything about the deck planks, Pat??

Tom Madden


Re: Freight car flooring

al_brown03
 

Hi Bruce --

Good point. I'm persuaded.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@a...> wrote:

On Mon, January 16, 2006 12:36 pm, al_brown03 wrote:
SAL mechanical department standards for '47 talk about painting
flat
cars "except for woodwork"; they don't say whether the decks were
treated with anything. But the next standard is for wheel cars,
and
definitely *does* mention creosoted wood (indirectly, as in don't
paint
it). So on wheel cars, it'd seem that at least some of the wood
was
creosoted. (1) Since wheel cars were often converted flats or
gondolas,
would they be treated the same? (2) If builders didn't creosote
new
cars per Mr. Hawkins's info, perhaps some railroads creosoted
older
ones
Al,

No. Wheel cars in company service only carry one commodity,
wheels, and
who bloody cares if they get some creosote on them? Given the
lading, the
railroad may have considered a longer deck life more likely that a
general
service flat (which is constantly getting nailed), or creosoted
soft wood
might have been cheaper than hardwoods, but this is most likely
somewhat
unique to the use of the car.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Freight car flooring

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
Make no mistake Creosote was used to keep all wood from "rotting" regardless of whether it was in direct ground contact or above ground contact., this only effective the amount of preservative that was necessary . . .
I believe this should be phrased as, "creosote COULD be used to keep all wood from rotting. . . "

But I sure would like to see a good color photo of a car built in the late 30's or 40's that show the cars to have raw wood decks.
If you have the AC&F book, look at the flat car chapter. If you have a 1940 Cyc, look at page 207; in the 1946 Cyc there are several flat cars with light decks; in the 1949-51 Cyc there is a photo of a PRR F-30a (yes, the Cyc shows a hyphen <g> so don't freak, Ben) with a light deck, page 150; and there are several more in the 1953 Cyc. If you want more, Greg, let me know.
I respect Greg's professional knowledge of wood and wood treatment, but evidence suggests that the thinking he advocates was simply not shared by railroad mechanical departments.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight car flooring

Bruce Smith
 

On Mon, January 16, 2006 12:36 pm, al_brown03 wrote:
SAL mechanical department standards for '47 talk about painting flat
cars "except for woodwork"; they don't say whether the decks were
treated with anything. But the next standard is for wheel cars, and
definitely *does* mention creosoted wood (indirectly, as in don't paint
it). So on wheel cars, it'd seem that at least some of the wood was
creosoted. (1) Since wheel cars were often converted flats or gondolas,
would they be treated the same? (2) If builders didn't creosote new
cars per Mr. Hawkins's info, perhaps some railroads creosoted older
ones
Al,

No. Wheel cars in company service only carry one commodity, wheels, and
who bloody cares if they get some creosote on them? Given the lading, the
railroad may have considered a longer deck life more likely that a general
service flat (which is constantly getting nailed), or creosoted soft wood
might have been cheaper than hardwoods, but this is most likely somewhat
unique to the use of the car.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: ACF type 27 8K Navy, Gas & Supply Co. (CTTX) reweigh questions.

al_brown03
 

If memory serves, arch bar trucks were banned in interchange in the
late '30s; so the only equipment that had them by the '50s were cars
that didn't go off line (e.g. ancient MofW cars).

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Arnold van Heyst." <mrdata1968@y...>
wrote:

Mr. Hendrickson,

Perhaps a strange/dumb question........
Is there prove whatsoever that some cars (for instance the Proto
2000 type 21 tank cars [UTLX?])
never received the ARA/AAR trucks, but still had the arch bar
trucks in mid 50's?

Arnold van heyst.


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