Date   

Re: USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Brett Whelan asked:
"I'm modeling 1958 and would like to model a USRA panel side hopper.
I haven't been able find any photographic evidence that any USRA
(30' 6" inside length) panel side cars existed this late."

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Try looking at SLSF, Rock Island, Wabash, Ann Arbor, NYC... I know
there were non-panel side USRA rebuilds in the 60's but I'm not sure
of the panel side cars."

Wabash/Ann Arbor: Chet French covered the Wabash cars. The Ann
Arbor panel side cars, AA 30700-30724 were actually the 33 ft IL
panel side cars built new for the Wabash, accurately modeled in HO
using Stan Rydarowicz's conversion kit using a laser cut Athearn
carbody with resin blister panels. You can also use the Pikestuff
panels in a pinch, but they're not 100% accurate.

SL-SF: SL-SF 88000-89499 (originally 86000-89499), 803 cars
remaining in January 1959. Photo and diagram are from the pay side
of the RPI website:
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/Twins/HM-panel-
Frisco.jpg
http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/rolling-stock/Hoppers/Twins/HM-panel-
SLSF-diagram.jpg

RI: RI 89895-89999, ex-SL-SF panel side rebuilds leased from US
Railway Equipment Co. in 1956, 104 cars remaining in January 1959.
Photo in November 1988 issue of Model RailroadING.

NYCS: NYC 850100-850167, Lot 640-H, rebuilt 1936. Terry Link's
website indicates cars lasted until 1958; no cars in January 1959
ORER.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-850126.jpg

NYC 850300-850399, Lot 645-H, rebuilt 1936, 34 cars remaining in
January 1959.

P&LE 37000-38418, Lot 651-H, rebuilt 1937, 1024 cars remaining in
January 1959.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/p&le-37314.jpg
Some cars rebuilt a second time without panel sides during the 1950s:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/p&le-37578.jpg

Thanks to Terry Link for sharing the NYCS information on his website!
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm

MP: MP 58000-58749 (common series with non-rebuilt cars),
USRA "clones", 117 panel side cars remaining in January 1959.

Retired by 1958: C&O, NYC 850210-850299 (Lot 641-H), NYC 850400-
850599 (Lot 646-H), NYC 850600-851180 (Lot 653-H), NYC 851200-851299
(Lot 655-H), P&LE 38500-39499 (Lot 665-H), NYC 850180-850189 (Lot
674-H), NH, WAB.

[The above information covers only USRA twins and "clones". It DOES
NOT cover pre-WWI 30 ft IL cars rebuilt with panel sides by CN, CV,
NYC, or PRR.]


Ben Hom


Re: sunshine kits

Bruce Smith
 

On Wed, January 18, 2006 8:06 pm, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

And, on the subject of changes, a recent New Products listing
in a magazine said shipping charges were $5, not the $4 we're
used to. Does anyone know if that's right?

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

So what if it isn't? One more buck for the quality products you get in
return won't kill the deal,
will it?

SGL
Hey Schuyler,

For folks who read <fill in the blank>, we've got a very special deal <VBG>!

The latest flyer from Martin arrived last week and it says $4.00

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Conversion percentages.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Rod's point here is a good one. I just emailed Denny off-line that the factor is 0.7348, which is
64/87.1. Some copiers will do this level of precision, but even those are not COMPLETELY reliable.
Using the known length of line to get a reduced length so one can check the machine's capabilities
is a very good idea. One more thing, a machine I had in my office would be different reductions in
the two principal directions. 85% LtoR would be about 83% Top to bottom. That machine got
replaced. But putting lines in both directions will reveal this.

If it's critical, you should get this done photographically. It's increasingly hard to find shops
that can do this, but not impossible.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Rod Miller
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:12 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Conversion percentages.

Hi Denny,

The method Jerry White showed me was to draw/tape a line that
was a specific length in the scale of the image to be
enlarged/reduced.
E.g., an O scale (1:48) drawing would have a line, say, 2.5
inches long which represents e.g. 10 feet.

Start with an approximate enlargement/reduction setting and
make a copy. Measure the length of the line on the copy and
determine its scale length for the scale you want. When the
line is 10 e.g. feet long in the scale you want, you have the
correct reduction/enlargement.

E.g., suppose you want to reduce an O scale (1/4 inch = 1
foot) drawing to S scale (3/16 inch = one foot, or 1/64 inch
= 1 inch).

A 10 foot long line in O scale is 10 1/4s or 2.5 inches long.

A 10 foot long line in S scale is 120 1/64s or 1 7/8 or 1.875.

When your line on the copy is 1.875 inches long the copy is
accurate for S scale.

IMHO that is more accurate than calculating a reduction/
enlargement percentage.

Regards,

Rod Miller

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:51:26 -0800
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: Conversion percentages.

Off hand, does anyone know what percent rule of thumb
reduction (e.g.
as would be set on a copying machine) to accurately reduce S-gauge
plans to HO (1:76 ---->1/87.1)?

Thanks!

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento



Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: Conversion percentages.

Rod Miller
 

Hi Denny,

The method Jerry White showed me was to draw/tape a line that was a
specific length in the scale of the image to be enlarged/reduced.
E.g., an O scale (1:48) drawing would have a line, say, 2.5 inches
long which represents e.g. 10 feet.

Start with an approximate enlargement/reduction setting and make a
copy. Measure the length of the line on the copy and determine its
scale length for the scale you want. When the line is 10 e.g. feet long
in the scale you want, you have the correct reduction/enlargement.

E.g., suppose you want to reduce an O scale (1/4 inch = 1 foot) drawing
to S scale (3/16 inch = one foot, or 1/64 inch = 1 inch).

A 10 foot long line in O scale is 10 1/4s or 2.5 inches long.

A 10 foot long line in S scale is 120 1/64s or 1 7/8 or 1.875.

When your line on the copy is 1.875 inches long the copy is accurate
for S scale.

IMHO that is more accurate than calculating a reduction/ enlargement
percentage.

Regards,

Rod Miller

Message: 18
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:51:26 -0800
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
Subject: Re: Conversion percentages.

Off hand, does anyone know what percent rule of thumb reduction (e.g.
as would be set on a copying machine) to accurately reduce S-gauge
plans to HO (1:76 ---->1/87.1)?

Thanks!

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Freight car flooring

David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

Gene - Pentachlorophenol IS creosote. A.T. Kott, ChE

>>

Um, I hate to argue with a ChE, but everything I can find says that
although some creosotes may have contained pentachlorophenol, equating
the two is a bit like saying that all boxcars are 1937 AAR boxcars.
Creosotes are a complex mixture of organic compounds and contain many
things other than pentachlorophenol.

Dave Smith, who knows more about creosote after 15 minutes on the web
than he does about 1937 AAR boxcars (mostly because he doesn't, yet,
know squat about the boxcars)


Re: sunshine kits

Schuyler Larrabee
 

And, on the subject of changes, a recent New Products listing
in a magazine said shipping charges were $5, not the $4 we're
used to. Does anyone know if that's right?

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

So what if it isn't? One more buck for the quality products you get in return won't kill the deal,
will it?

SGL


Re: Digest Number 2918

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Garth Groff writes-

You are probably right about not treating the decks on flat cars in the
past, but a preserved car today is a somewhat different matter. Back in
1999 a volunteer group restored Oakland & Antioch flat car 2002 for the
CSRM during Railfair '99. Apparently untreated lumber was used for the
deck. Within a few years the deck had warped so badly that the car had
to be withdrawn from display.
With permission, this car was used by a group independent of the CSRM as a wood car-building demonstration, not as an official restoration effort during the Railfair . The original car had long rotted away, and only the hardware was available for any resurrection.

The hardworking East Bay group that undertook the reconstruction unknowingly purchased green lumber on the cheap- the basis for the eventual astounding warpage (the deck more obvious, but the end sills only slightly less so). Unless the wood had been treated under pressure (which in the process essentially forces the wood to cure- usually incompatible with paint), this warpage would have occurred treatment or no.

An embarrassing incident where that car was by accident actually put on museum display was chronicled by Tony Thompson some time ago. Although its load at that time was an absolutely gorgeous new restoration of a ATSF 1888 boxcar, one's attention was instead almost completely diverted to the terrible woodwork of the underlying flat car.

Denny


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Freight car floors

Bruce Smith
 

On Wed, January 18, 2006 6:44 pm, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:
Jack Van Buekenhout wrote:
"Suggest that you look at the February 2006 issue of the Railroad
Model Craftsman (page 71) to look at an article on finishing
flooring for models."

Excellent suggestion - after all, it's the article that kicked off
this thread! <G>

Ben Hom
The only down side is that Stan suggests that the floors were creosote
treated wood, which the facts doon't seem to bear out <G> So, rather thas
Stan's use of rubber as a final wash, I would go with something a little
browner, like RR tie or roof brown (yeah, I KNOW RR tie brown is supposed
to be creosote treated wood) as it looks more like somewhat weathered
(darkened) oak.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Freight car flooring

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Green" <bierglaeser@y...> wrote:

Here is some specific information about flat car decks. This is
quoted from the bill of materials for 50 flat cars built by GATC
for
the M&StL in 1952.

37. FLOOR
To be Dense Common Southern yellow Pine. Boards to be 2-1/2" x 7-
1/2" section, square edge, bolted to frame with watertight bolts.
Floor boards on 10 cars only to be treated with 8#
Pentachlorophenol
by Joslyn Mfg. Company.

55. PAINTING
Truck ...
All metal to metal ...
The inside surfaces of center sill and bolster ...
After assembly the entire underframe ...
Outside surfaces of side sill and end sill ...
Floor not to be painted, except underside of floor boards to
receive
a coat of car cement at points in contact with steel.

Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso
Gene - Pentachlorophenol IS creosote. A.T. Kott, ChE


Re: Freight car floors

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jack Van Buekenhout wrote:
"Suggest that you look at the February 2006 issue of the Railroad
Model Craftsman (page 71) to look at an article on finishing
flooring for models."

Excellent suggestion - after all, it's the article that kicked off
this thread! <G>


Ben Hom


Re: Freight car floors

John Van Buekenhout <jvanbu1347@...>
 

Suggest that you look at the February 2006 issue of the Railroad Model Craftsman (page 71) to look at an article on finishing flooring for models.
Jack

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Carlson" <midcentury@sbcglobal.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight car floors


Some thoughts about warping freight car decks.

Quality of wood is important if ones' objective is to
avoid warpage. Most wood being harvested at the turn
of the previous century was "old growth". Old growth
timber, particularly western timber, is characterized
as having a higher winter wood to spring wood ratio,
these being what we know as tree rings. The slower
winter growth is what the ring is composed of, the
much faster growing spring wood is what spaces out the
tree rings. Second and third growth timbers have a
very high percentage of the weaker summer wood. This
is why much of today's lumber warps fairly easily,
much less rings making much less strength.

Another factor is grain orientation. Flat car wood
decking if of vertical, tight grained milled lumber
will last for a long time, much more than flat grained
decking (that is grain which is horizontal in the
decking lumber. Long time ago flat grained lumber was
often considered waste wood, and would be burnt in the
teepee burner, or used for cheap barn siding and attic
floor boards.

So the experience of the flat car restoration done
with today's lumber does not necessarily explain flat
car decking durability of 100 years ago.

From: "Garth Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
Randy,

You are probably right about not treating the
decks on flat cars in the
past, but a preserved car today is a somewhat
different matter. Back in
1999 a volunteer group restored Oakland & Antioch
flat car 2002 for the
CSRM during Railfair '99. Apparently untreated
lumber was used for the
deck. Within a few years the deck had warped so
badly that the car had
to be withdrawn from display.


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: sunshine kits

Paul Lyons
 

In a message dated 1/18/2006 7:24:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net writes:
My point is, Bruce, that tossing an extra buck into the check to more
properly compensate Martin for
the work he does is NOT inappropriate. If you're that tight for the buck,
keep it.

SGL
I think you are BOTH missing the point! I suspect Jim just wants to know the
correct amount so he gets it right before his revised All Time Sunshine Kits
web page is posted.
Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Conversion percentages.

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Of course, I was writing to "Denny," not "Deny." My typing gets worse as the
day wears on. - Andy


Re: Conversion percentages.

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hi Deny,

From "Model Railroader" ­ To convert S scale drawings to your scale copy at
these percentages: N 40 percent, HO 73.5 percent, O 133.3 percent

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-11142


Re: Conversion percentages.

Tim O'Connor
 

s is 1/64

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
Off hand, does anyone know what percent rule of thumb reduction (e.g.
as would be set on a copying machine) to accurately reduce S-gauge
plans to HO (1:76 ---->1/87.1)?

Thanks!

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento



Yahoo! Groups Links






Re: Conversion percentages.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Off hand, does anyone know what percent rule of thumb reduction (e.g. as would be set on a copying machine) to accurately reduce S-gauge plans to HO (1:76 ---->1/87.1)?

Thanks!

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's

Ray Breyer <rbreyer@...>
 

The NKP had some USRA-like twin hoppers (33'8" IL) that were converted to
panel hoppers, cars 32000-32149, Pressed Steel, 1923. They're on the 1950
ORER but off the 1962 (the only two years I have, sorry). The only two
photos I've been able to squirrel up of these cars are from 1938 and 1949.

Some of the NKP's true USRA twins did last to the late 1950s. I've got a
photo of NKP 99326 being shoved around by a 2-8-2 in Madison, IL (East St
Louis), in 1957. The car still has its Andrews trucks. None of these cars
ever received side panel extensions, however.

Ray Breyer

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:00 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's

Try looking at SLSF, Rock Island, Wabash, Ann Arbor, NYC...
I know there were non-panel side USRA rebuilds in the 60's
but I'm not sure of the panel side cars. If you don't have
the ORER, Al Westerfield sells a 1959 edition on CD-ROM.

Tim O'Connor

I'm modeling 1958 and would like to model a USRA panel
side hopper.
I haven't been able find any photographic evidence
that any USRA (30'6"inside length) panel side cars
existed this late.
Can anyone confirm this is the case? or when the last
of these cars were in service?
Brett Whelan
Australia.


Re: USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's

Tim O'Connor
 

Brett... I think people noted that would be true of Wabash and NYC,
but no one said anything about SLSF or Rock Island for two examples.
The SLSF rebuilt some panel-side cars for company sand service.

Panel sides were not the panacea (increased cubic cap) they were
thought to be, while some plain-sided USRA cars lasted beyond the
1950's e.g. Colorado & Southern, AC&Y, Peabody Coal, to name three.

Tim O'Connor

So it looks like there were no USRA panel side hopper
left in service by '58.
Thanks again
Brett Whelan
Australia


Re: sunshine kits

Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Thanks Tim. All corrections gladly accepted.

Jim


Re: USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's

Brett Whelan
 

Thankyou Chet & Tim,

I was going to model the Wabash 37093 and then I
worked out it is a 33' or 34' IL panel hopper!

So it looks like there were no USRA panel side hopper
left in service by '58.

Thanks again

Brett Whelan
Australia


Brett,

The Wabash had one of the largest number of 30'-6"IL
panel hopper
cars. There were 500 cars in the 34000-34499 series
and 1000 cars in
the 35000-35999 series. In 1949, 1063 cars in both
series were still
on the roster, but they disappeared very quickly in
the next few
years. In 1952,the last two 35000's were scrapped and
the 58 cars in
the 34000 series remaining at the beginning of 1953
were gone by late
summer.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Message: 12
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:00:11 -0500
From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: USRA panel side hoppers in the late 50's


Try looking at SLSF, Rock Island, Wabash, Ann Arbor,
NYC...
I know there were non-panel side USRA rebuilds in the
60's
but I'm not sure of the panel side cars. If you don't
have
the ORER, Al Westerfield sells a 1959 edition on
CD-ROM.

Tim O'Connor


I'm modeling 1958 and would like to model a USRA
panel
side hopper.
I haven't been able find any photographic evidence
that any USRA (30'6"inside length) panel side cars
existed this late.
Can anyone confirm this is the case? or when the last
of these cars were in service?
Brett Whelan
Australia.



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