Date   

Re: Which tank cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Please note that I wrote "far west." You easterners tend to think that
"west" is anything west of the Appalachians. Those of us who are
natives of the real west know that "west" starts at the Front Range.
Everything east of Denver and Cheyenne is either east or south.
Richard Hendrickson
Richard, even Mr. Brock knows :-) that Sinclair had a very large
refinery west of Laramie in the eponymous Sinclair WY*. They had
stations in Utah, Idaho, Montana... that's pretty durn fur west
IMO. A lot closer to the coast than Denver!

Tim O'Connor

( * remember Teapot Dome? )


GSC flats

Fred Mullins
 

Folks,
Can anyone tell me when were the GSC commonwealth bulkhead flats
built? I want to know if they will fit my 1955-60 layout? Also anybody
have a listing of what railroads owned them?
Thanks for any info!

Fred Mullins


Re: Thompson on DeNevi

Peter Weiglin
 

Prior message:

Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 23:03:58 -0800
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Subject: Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization
Jared Harper wrote:

In trying to track down this info. I have been looking at several
sources. One is America's Fighting Railroads by Don DeNevi.
Apparently it's been reprinted four times although I can't see why.
A good many of the photos are not WWII vintage, but prewar. The
photo captions are screwy also . . . My suggestion is don't bother looking at this one.
That's our boy DeNevi. Consistent in his books, if nothing else.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
= = =

And before someone jumps on Tony as an author/publisher criticizing another, let me, as another author/publisher, that it ain't just competitive juices flowing. In fact, many of us believe that Tony showed admirable restraint!

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Re: Which tank cars?

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote in response to Jim Hayes' inquiry about retail oil dealers in the Northwest in the late 1950's:

Definitely not Mobil, which marketed only in the east and midwest at
that time. Sinclair did not market in the far west (Salt Lake City was
about as far west as they got). Associated Oil Co., the west coast
affiliate of Tidewater Associated, certainly did market in the
northwest, transporting petroleum products in AOX (but not TIDX or
TWOX) cars. I have a 1947 car interchange book from Bieber, CA, where
the WP handed off northbound traffic to the GN, and there was a steady
stream of tank cars from Shell of Calif. (SCCX, but not RPX or SEPX)
and Union Oil of Cailf. (UOCX). And, of course, lots of UTLX and GATX
cars, plus an occasional SHPX car.
Richard,

Thank you for providing some link between owners and lessees in the Northwest. I believe that UTLX was Chevron's lessor. If Texaco was retailed in the Northwest, GATX was the owner of the TCX mark, but when that supply was scarce, GATX cars could be used.

Your and my assignations, however, are before any swapping.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Which tank cars?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jim Hayes asks about tank cars in the "far west":

But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find
out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then?
Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.

And Richard Hendrikson replies:

Tank cars owned by oil companies that didn't market in the far west
also turned up occasionally. There is photographic evidence of
Magnolia cars on Cajon Pass, a Mid-Continet D-X car at San Luis Obispo,
and Conoco cars on the SP near Ventura, CA, where Conoco had an oil
field and bulk oil depot, and doubtless there were similar traffic
anomalies in the northwest as well, but you don't want to assume
anything without photographic or documentary evidence.
The book Southern Pacific in Color by Sweetland shows on pg 91 two interesting tank cars in 1950...supposedly in Bay Shore frt yard in San Francisco. At least we know it's on SP tracks because there's an SP 2-8-0 at work in the photo. Anyhow, the two cars are of Vendome Tank Car Co...AGCX...of Tulsa, OK. The cars are metallic silver color and appear to be insulated. These two cars may the only ones of this company that ever went west of Oklahoma...we'll probably never know. This is the problem, of course, with having such a small sample of data to draw conclusions from. Nevertheless, if the photo IS of San Francisco, one modeling the area would be historically correct in having 2 such cars in Bay Shore yard in 1950.

I discovered the photo, BTW, while searching for color photos of flat car decks in our time period. I have found one that is a bit surprising. GN painted at least one with Vermillion Red paint.

Mike Brock


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Frederick Freitas wrote:

Guys,,
My first post military job was at the Sunoco plant in Boston, Ma.. When we rec'd a tanker of gas it was clear; the chemist in the tank farm would add yellow to the low grade, and blue for the high. When unleaded started, it was left clear.
The important point is----when the tank farm was full at Mobil, or Esso, they pumped the rest to Sunoco, and vice versa.
Those from the 40's can relate the color of rationed gas, and tractor gas. Not my era. It is surprising how long this practice has been around.
Fred, Peter & Larry,

What effect did this swapping have on tank cars?

Of the tank cars delivered to oil dealers in Minburn and Dallas Center Iowa in 1949 which Doug Harding provided me, there is evidence of swapping which affected tank cars - particularly at the Hunter Bulk Oil facility in Minburn. But to be aware of this requires some knowledge as to the lessees of the sundry tank car lines or, in some cases, tank cars owned by the shipper.

Tim Gilbert


KCS 15500 to 15599 rebuilt boxcar

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I'm working on this car from the Cocoa Beach clinic and I want to graft the
correct ends on the car. The drawing shows IDE 3/4 with rectangular top rib,
and the darts between the main ribs. I know there have been errors in MM
drawings before, so does anyone have a photo showing the ends of the car to
confirm. Thanks.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

Has ye not heard of Blue Sunoco? Yes, different grades and brands of gas are/were different colours
Gasoline for farm use is/was also coloured to tell it from gasoline with road tax included. There is/was a stiff fine for operating a road vehicle with farm use fuel. I expect the US picture was the same as Canada.

Another additive the chemist added changed the octane levels.

Peter

At 08:01 PM 1/25/06, you wrote:
Peter,
I don't get it. How did the dye change the refinery product into fuel for those companies? Were their fuels a different color from everyone else's?? - -Jeff
Peter Bowers


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Re: Which tank cars?

Jim and Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

Richard, I agree. I remember back in the 60s and 70s when I lived back East
in Minnesota even the radio personalities were confused. WCCO radio in
Minneapolis/St. Paul was always braying "Here in the great Northwest!" I may
have been raised in the Midwest but I was born in the real
Great Northwest and knew the difference.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Guys,,

My first post military job was at the Sunoco plant in Boston, Ma.. When we rec'd a tanker of gas it was clear; the chemist in the tank farm would add yellow to the low grade, and blue for the high. When unleaded started, it was left clear.
The important point is----when the tank farm was full at Mobil, or Esso, they pumped the rest to Sunoco, and vice versa.
Those from the 40's can relate the color of rationed gas, and tractor gas. Not my era. It is surprising how long this practice has been around.

Fred Freitas

ljack70117@adelphia.net wrote:

On Jan 25, 2006, at 8:01 PM, jaley wrote:

On Jan 25, 6:11pm, PBowers wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization
At 03:17 PM 1/25/06, you wrote:The ones you would see might not be
owned
by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely
possible
for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition).
I think you will also find that the chemist was the magic man at a
lot
of
refineries. My Dad sailed in the 30's and the tankers use to fill
up at
the Imperial Oil refinery in Montreal. The chemist came on board and
put
dye in the holds and by the time the ship arrived at destination
it was
hauling fuel for Esso, Supertest, B/A and Sunoco. Tank car loads got
the
same treatment.

Peter Bowers

Peter,

I don't get it. How did the dye change the refinery product into
fuel for those companies? Were their fuels a different color from
everyone else's??

Thanks,

-Jeff
That is the only difference in most gasolines today and back then. My
grand father had a Standard Station i KCK in the early 40s. If
Standard was out of a grade of gas they went over to Mobil or Texaco
and got a tank truck load and brought it to his station. WOW you
learn something new every day.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net





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Re: Which tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 5:00 PM, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Richard, I think Sinclair was pretty big in the west, just not on
the COAST... Honestly you guys are so provincial at times! :-)
Please note that I wrote "far west." You easterners tend to think that
"west" is anything west of the Appalachians. Those of us who are
natives of the real west know that "west" starts at the Front Range.
Everything east of Denver and Cheyenne is either east or south.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

ljack70117@...
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 8:01 PM, jaley wrote:

On Jan 25, 6:11pm, PBowers wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization
At 03:17 PM 1/25/06, you wrote:The ones you would see might not be owned
by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely possible
for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition).
I think you will also find that the chemist was the magic man at a lot
of
refineries. My Dad sailed in the 30's and the tankers use to fill up at
the Imperial Oil refinery in Montreal. The chemist came on board and
put
dye in the holds and by the time the ship arrived at destination it was
hauling fuel for Esso, Supertest, B/A and Sunoco. Tank car loads got
the
same treatment.

Peter Bowers

Peter,

I don't get it. How did the dye change the refinery product into
fuel for those companies? Were their fuels a different color from
everyone else's??

Thanks,

-Jeff
That is the only difference in most gasolines today and back then. My grand father had a Standard Station i KCK in the early 40s. If Standard was out of a grade of gas they went over to Mobil or Texaco and got a tank truck load and brought it to his station. WOW you learn something new every day.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@adelphia.net


Re: Which tank cars?

Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/25/2006 10:26:43 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
thompson@signaturepress.com writes:

So this would be gasoline from the Akinbak Mountains?? Wow! You can learn a
lot on this list <g>.


---> ROTFLMAO!!! I almost sent in almost the exact same post!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: Which tank cars?

Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/25/2006 10:19:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
thompson@signaturepress.com writes:

Salt Lake ain't even half way to the coast from Denver. Get used to it, Tim.
The west is bigger than Massachusetts. <g>


---> Speaking as someone who lives (?) in Salt Lake, we ain't halfway to
anywhere! Speaking of the size of the West (before the moderator decides to
terminate this subject), I was IM'ing a friend who lived in New Jur-see, and he
was talking about his state and how big it was. I sent him data that showed
that San Bernardino County (through which a LOT of steam era freight cars
rolled) is bigger then the entire state of NJ. And that was only one county in the
State of California! To someone who hasn't been out west, it's hard to
comprehend the size of the west, and flying over it really doesn't count!


Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: Thompson on DeNevi

Brian Termunde
 

In a message dated 1/25/2006 9:14:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
railstuf@fuse.net writes:

And before someone jumps on Tony as an author/publisher criticizing another,
let
me, as another author/publisher, that it ain't just competitive juices
flowing.
In fact, many of us believe that Tony showed admirable restraint!



---> That's for dang sure. Just mention his WP book on one of the WP lists,
and you had better hide behind the biggest Steam Era Freight car that you can
find! <G> As one wag did nicely complement the book though, he said it was
very helpful to him, by using that book, his dining room table no longer
wobbles! <VBG>

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Jan 25, 6:11pm, PBowers wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization
At 03:17 PM 1/25/06, you wrote:The ones you would see might not be owned
by the companies delivering the oil (ie it would be entirely possible
for one company's tank to be delivering fuel to the competition).
I think you will also find that the chemist was the magic man at a lot
of
refineries. My Dad sailed in the 30's and the tankers use to fill up at
the Imperial Oil refinery in Montreal. The chemist came on board and
put
dye in the holds and by the time the ship arrived at destination it was
hauling fuel for Esso, Supertest, B/A and Sunoco. Tank car loads got
the
same treatment.

Peter Bowers

Peter,

I don't get it. How did the dye change the refinery product into
fuel for those companies? Were their fuels a different color from
everyone else's??

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Which tank cars?

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, I think Sinclair was pretty big in the west, just not on
the COAST... Honestly you guys are so provincial at times! :-)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>

Sinclair did not market in the far west (Salt Lake City was
about as far west as they got).


Re: GATC Trans-Flo Covered Hopper Cars

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

They were very distinctive hopper cars: 55' long over coupler pulling faces, prominent
external truss framing like a helium car, 6 unloading outlets, small round loading
hatches....... See Train Shed Cyc #85, p. 162 or a 1953 CBC.

Pat Wider


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@c... wrote:

Pat can you describe the cars?

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Patrick Wider" <pwider@s...>
I'm currently preparing an article on the General American Trans-Flo (flour) covered
hopper cars that were in the GACX 41000-41099 series (circa 1950s). These cars
were
predecessors to GATC's Airslide cars. Does anyone know of scale models (kit or brass)
that
may have been produced of these cars??? Thanks.
Pat Wider


Re: WWII Freight Car Utilization

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Peter Bowers wrote:
I think you will also find that the chemist was the magic man at a lot of
refineries. My Dad sailed in the 30's and the tankers use to fill up at
the Imperial Oil refinery in Montreal. The chemist came on board and put
dye in the holds and by the time the ship arrived at destination it was
hauling fuel for Esso, Supertest, B/A and Sunoco. Tank car loads got the
same treatment.
When I was a kid, I remember one time riding with my Dad late at night back to LA from the Orange County beaches. We passed the Signal refinery in Long Beach and there were trucks lettered for two other oil companies being loaded there. My Dad, who had once worked for Humble in Texas, said the companies always trade gasoline back and forth--and presumably that was after the ship had sailed <g> --but they do it at night so fewer people will see it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Which tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 25, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Jim and Lisa Hayes wrote:

Which tank cars are correct for the late '50s in the Northwest? No,
I'm not
looking for specific advice. I didn't live in the Northwest in the
1950s so
I can't reach back into my own memories.
Most of the tank cars I buy/build are plain Jane black because that's
what
most of them were and I'm less likely to go wrong with them. I'd like
to
have one decorated with a flying red horse or a flying A or a
billboard
Sinclair or some such. But where do I look for the era and location
information I need to choose correct models? Where do I look to find
out if
Mobil or Flying A or Sinclair or whoever had gas stations here then?
Old
phone books? Business directories? Or ??? Suggestions gladly accepted.
Definitely not Mobil, which marketed only in the east and midwest at
that time. Sinclair did not market in the far west (Salt Lake City was
about as far west as they got). Associated Oil Co., the west coast
affiliate of Tidewater Associated, certainly did market in the
northwest, transporting petroleum products in AOX (but not TIDX or
TWOX) cars. I have a 1947 car interchange book from Bieber, CA, where
the WP handed off northbound traffic to the GN, and there was a steady
stream of tank cars from Shell of Calif. (SCCX, but not RPX or SEPX)
and Union Oil of Cailf. (UOCX). And, of course, lots of UTLX and GATX
cars, plus an occasional SHPX car.

Tank cars owned by oil companies that didn't market in the far west
also turned up occasionally. There is photographic evidence of
Magnolia cars on Cajon Pass, a Mid-Continet D-X car at San Luis Obispo,
and Conoco cars on the SP near Ventura, CA, where Conoco had an oil
field and bulk oil depot, and doubtless there were similar traffic
anomalies in the northwest as well, but you don't want to assume
anything without photographic or documentary evidence.

Richard Hendrickson

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