This came up the other day on the BBFCL and a response cited 1970 as
the date they were outlawed. Can't confirm or deny but it's a start.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Scott Pitzer <scottp459@...> wrote:

I got that impression from some captions in the B&O Color Guide.

But no details. So I look forward to learning the real story.

Scott Pitzer


-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Sent: Feb 17, 2006 10:26 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Duryea Underframes

Al Hoffman recalls seeing information somewhere that Duryea

underframes

were outlawed in interchange at some point. I think he may be

right,

but I can't remember where I got that impression either. Can

anyone on

the list shed some light on this issue?

Richard Hendrickson

I was looking over the newes Kadee PS-2 release for potash service, American
Potash & Chemical Corporation,
NAHX 31229, with a return to Trona Ca routing.

I know potash was used in many industrial process, but I do not know much
about it. Was it produced regionally or in specialized locations. Would a
covered hopper in service from a California plant be found on the Erie main
in NW Pa.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

I wish I knew more about the Lake Champlain and Moriah from Mineville into Port Henry. I visited the abandoned right of way and photographed the derelict enginehouse and also followed the Chateauguay (and Ausable Forks) branch (es) while I was stationed at Plattsburgh AFB in the mid-1980's. Otherwise, I have bits and pieces of references, including some views of the LC&M steam locomotives and one fuzzy snapshot of the EMD switchers (lettered Republic Steel) that replaced them. I was not clear that the ore from Mineville was actually smelted locally, still less that smelting was done at Lyon Mountain. I have some vague recollection that there was a coke plant in the Albany area, but generally my limited knowledge of coke reduction is that it was a fairly specialized operation, so I would not be surprised if the PRR hoppers you report actually had come from Pennsylvania (probably the Pittsburgh area) where they did so much of that.
Someone more knowledgeable about D&H traffic than I would have to explain how much of the car ladings were iron ore and how much ingots from northern New York State. I'm pretty sure that the ore traffic from the Tahawus Branch was shipped out for smelting elsewhere.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 21:35:27 -0500
From: "David Smith" <dsmith@davinci-center.org>
Subject: RE: hoppers in interchange,

In a 1933 photo of a blast furnace on the D&H Chateauguay branch in the
northern Adirondacks, the three identifiable cars of coke(?) in the
foreground are all PRR quad hoppers (not exactly what I expected, but
great news for the H21 project). The closest coke works is on the D&H
at Port Henry. Maybe they were captured or maybe the coke came from
somewhere at least closer to PRR rails, anyone know more?

Dave Smith

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Another possibility occurs to me: in one of my trolley freight references is a view of the Bamberger ex-S&IE boxcab pulling three housecars on the mainline, no caboose. Could it be that, like modern cabooseless trains, in which brakemen and conductors ride in the locomotive cab, that the Bamberger locomotives had sufficient room for drovers/custodians to ride with the crew? Presumably even Bamberger trains, however short, in the golden age of railroading still had to provide room for the conductor and brakemen.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

From: "shaystark" <SHAYS@AQUAENG.COM>
Subject: Re: Banana Reefers & Routing

Malcolm wrote:

I imagine that the basic rule said that caretakers could recive

free transportation via the loaded route. The Bamberger exception
indicates that their freight trains did not have cabooses, but it's
unlikely they ever would have handled bananas from Ogden to Salt
Lake city.

According to information that I have gleaned from interviewing
Bamberger employees Strawberry and Banana movements were the only
commodities that took precedent over scheduled passenger trains.
From what I can find in photos the greatest number of cars I could
see was three but most the time only one car was involved. Bamberger
served the Safeway Warehouse, and Utah Wholesale Grocers Warehouse
which both received bananas and strawberries. The various produce
wholesalers located at the Salt Lake Fruit Growers Market also
received strawberries off the Bamberger. Bamberger was notified when
cars were arriving in Ogden and would have a crew waiting at the
interchange for the cars. The cars would usually be tacked on the
back of the nearest scheduled Bamberger passenger run or else in
between scheduled trains an available passenger motor would be
utilized. If on a scheduled train the cars would be switched out at
the Salt Lake Passenger Terminal where they would be immediately
forwarded on to their respective destinations. Cars heading to Salt
Lake City on unscheduled special movements would be taken directly
to the final destination. Carloads of watermelons were also treated
in a special manner but did not warrant special movements.

Shay Stark

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I suspected there was a reason I could remember only the one reference: the Prince RF&P is one of his titles that has NOT been reprinted and accordingly goes for a higher price tag than I can justify. I am always glad to see occasional references to freight cars originating or terminating (mostly the latter, which created the usual revenue problems), such as brother Tuson's discussion of the traffic on the Suncook Valley, one of my favorite lines.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

The Smithfield Terminal rates two pages, with about 10 photos, in
Richard E. Prince's RICHMOND-WASHINGTON FAST FREIGHT LINE. The line
lasted just 18 months or so, generating only a little over 1,000 car
loads in its first year of existence, way down from a projected 3,000.
You are correct about the connection, or lack thereof. It connected by
car float with the C&O at Newport News only. This routing makes it
unlikely any cars would have been routed over the A&D. Prince says the
line only served one plant directly, Gwaltney's (IIRC). If they other
three major shippers in Smithfield used the line, they must have loaded
at a team track from a truck, so why bother? It would appear that a lack
of a direct connection, and already established truck service, doomed
the line from the start.

In looking over the handful of photos in Prince's book, I noticed that
there were three different refrigerators shown. I could make out
lettering on only one: part of the end lettering shows "??DX", and part
of the number. This suggests the car was owned by NADX, but that's not
absolutely certain. The distinctive end fascia is pretty clear in the
photo, and maybe some of our reefer mavens who own this book can make a
more definite ID. The other two reefers shown are beyond my experience
to identify.
Garth G. Groff

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The prototype for the Accurail car had molded on grabirons?
(ha, ha, yes, I know you meant the Q cars didn't have ladders).
Charlie Vlk

I got that impression from some captions in the B&O Color Guide. But no details. So I look forward to learning the real story.

Scott Pitzer

Al Hoffman recalls seeing information somewhere that Duryea underframes were outlawed in interchange at some point. I think he may be right, but I can't remember where I got that impression either. Can anyone on the list shed some light on this issue?

Richard Hendrickson

Q's classic single sheathed box cars were similar to the Accurail cars
but were a little shorter and had individual grab irons.

They were predated by a couple of earlier series which were shorter
stilland had single sheathed ends with 4 vertical metal braces. What
kind of roofs did these shorter cars have in the '40s?

Ed

Hello Group,

A way to correct blushing is to add retarder to to your final coat. You can also
spray retarder and thinner on a finished model this will release the moisture, however,
it will change the gloss. This should be a light coat. Don't spray on rainy days or
when the humidity is high.

John F. Riba

To prevent this when using spray cans, especially on cold, damp
days, I have preheated the paint by letting the can stand in a pan
of hot water for a little while before spraying. I have no way of
knowing how effective this is, but when I have done this, I rarely
have had problems with condensation or blush.

David Willoughby

Greg is exactly right. Spray painters call the defect he

describes

gun blush. It happens when it's very humid. Droplets of

moisture

condense on the cold, still wet paint. If the aerosol can of paint
chills down a lot that could make the problem worse.(Cans of

air

brush propellant always did that for me).

Ed Mines

There was an excellent series on a very similar C&NW early TOFC
flatcar in Mainline Modeler, see the following listing from the
Kalmbach online index.

C&NW Piggyback Service, Part 1
Mainline Modeler, October 1988 page 67
( C&NW, FLATCAR, "KEYSER, LLOYD", TOFC, FREIGHTCAR, PROTOTYPE, MM )

C&NW Piggyback Service, pt.2: Prototype flat cars
Mainline Modeler, November 1988 page 63

CNW piggyback service, Part 3
Mainline Modeler, December 1988 page 68

C&NW Piggyback Service - the prototype
Mainline Modeler, January 1989 page 61

C&NW piggyback service, Part 4
Mainline Modeler, January 1989 page 61

C&NW Piggyback Service - the model
Mainline Modeler, January 1989 page 65

C&NW piggyback service, Part 5
Mainline Modeler, February 1989 page 24

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@...>
wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@> wrote:
....You need to know I build models from

photos, never use a ruler, I have no idea if the railing are

anywhere

close to scale, but they look like the ones in the photos.

Well, that works, because you have such a great eye for what you're
modeling. Some of us can look at a photo a hundred times and still

not

see what's there. And if you build with your eyes glued to

calipers

and a ruler, sometimes in the end, when it's too late, your

holistic

eye lets you know you got a measurement wrong.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:
....You need to know I build models from

photos, never use a ruler, I have no idea if the railing are anywhere
close to scale, but they look like the ones in the photos.

Well, that works, because you have such a great eye for what you're
modeling. Some of us can look at a photo a hundred times and still not
see what's there. And if you build with your eyes glued to calipers
and a ruler, sometimes in the end, when it's too late, your holistic
eye lets you know you got a measurement wrong. I've been learning a
lot messing with calipers lately, but I tend to favor your more
holistic approach too. Mostly I drag the calipers out to try and
figure out dimensionally why something I drew or made looks out of
proportion compared to a photograph of the prototype. And of course
rulers are handy for making straight cuts...

Guess I need to jump in and just finagle those siderails based on my
eye and plausible practice and see how they come out. But if I'm not
mistaken, on the NP 52'6" TOFC flats the posts appear to have been
contoured, or there was some other sort of fitting that made the rails
nestle into them- giving the rails the appearance of being clamped or
fitted, rather than just butted onto the post tops. Uncertainty about
that is what's slowed me down. I think Tim O'C. has groused about this
question a few times too. The best photo have so far of of the rails
on the NP cars came from him, though, so he's been on the trail.

Nope I wasn't there, I've just been looking at the 'net photos posted
of your cars. Maybe I'll get to Naperville this year though. Thanks
and best,

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <bwelch@...> wrote:

I received yesterday an undecorated Athearn PS-2 that I had ordered

and

generally I think it is well engineered. I was disappointed that

the

grab irons that form the end and side ladders were molded on.

Because

of the type of car, and the way the parts are designed, these will

not

be difficult to remove, but I would not have minded not having to

drill

more holes, and building yet again another jig to bend an odd width

of

wire.

I plan to build both Wabash and Illinois Central versions

eventually,

as these are examples good for my period, but I thought I would

need to

do work on the roof to change the spacing of the roof hatches. The

way

the roof is molded this would be very easy. The photo I have of an
early Wabash example is a threequarter shot, so I cannot judge
precisely, but the hatch spacing on that photo appears to match

that on

the model. I have not ordered a back issue yet of RMJ w/Ed Hawkins
article, but I am wondering which PS-2's had hatch spacing that

differs

from this model?

Bill,

Ed Hawkins states in his article that four early series of three-bay
PS-2's had their intermediate hatches one foot closer to the cars
centerline (10 feet 9-3/4inches spacing). These cars were built from
December 1953 to February 1954 for the CB&Q, CIL. T&NO, and the
Wabash. The Wabash cars were in the 31000-31039 series. Additional
Wabash cars built in 1956 and 57 had the 11 feet 9-3/4 inch spacing.
IC 79100-79199 were built in Sept.1955 with the 11 feet 9-3/4 inch
spacing.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

I would love to hear how you built the side
rails on the TOFC flat,
Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

Chris I built the model several years ago. I think I cut bits of
styrene for the uprights in the stack pockets. I remember I had to
file them thinner to make them fit inside. Then I laid a piece of code
75 PECO rail on top. That's it! You need to know I build models from
photos, never use a ruler, I have no idea if the railing are anywhere
close to scale, but they look like the ones in the photos.
Clark Propst
PS Were you one of the fellas there from MT?

Bill, the evidence is that the unusual evenly spaced hatches
were found on some early cars for AT&SF, and some Southern cars
built in 1954 and 1957. GM&O had some Greenvilles that look like
PS2's with the evenly spaced hatches. That's about it.

I have views of the Wabash and IC cars that show the conventional
hatch "2-1-2" spacing seen on most PS 2893's. The IC cars were
purchased for alumina service and were featured in a photo in the
IC's 1956 annual report.

Tim O'Connor

I received yesterday an undecorated Athearn PS-2 that I had ordered and
generally I think it is well engineered. I was disappointed that the
grab irons that form the end and side ladders were molded on. Because
of the type of car, and the way the parts are designed, these will not
be difficult to remove, but I would not have minded not having to drill
more holes, and building yet again another jig to bend an odd width of
wire.

I plan to build both Wabash and Illinois Central versions eventually,
as these are examples good for my period, but I thought I would need to
do work on the roof to change the spacing of the roof hatches. The way
the roof is molded this would be very easy. The photo I have of an
early Wabash example is a threequarter shot, so I cannot judge
precisely, but the hatch spacing on that photo appears to match that on
the model. I have not ordered a back issue yet of RMJ w/Ed Hawkins
article, but I am wondering which PS-2's had hatch spacing that differs
from this model?

Bill Welch

Clark: Kidding aside, I would love to hear how you built the side
rails on the TOFC flat, which it looks like you've done a very nice
job on. I have been meaning to build some NP cars of similar design,
but been putting them off partly because the construction details of
the side rails aren't clear in prototype photos, and partly because
I've been concerned about how to shape and allign the posts precisely
enough that the rails sit true. How'd you do it? I've been
considering building a jig. Thanks,

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

I'm looking for any models of steam era slag ladles or hot cinder cars
in N scale. I gather Overland made one in brass, but I have been unable
to find one for sale by any hobby vendor on the Internet (I have already
done multiple Google searches, so don't post the Golf Manor Hobbies site
- they're sold out) - I saw one come up on eBay, but apparently lack the
requisite knowledge of actual value to place a winning bid. I've also
seen it rumored that Minitrix made them. I'm looking for a way to get
even a single one. Anyone know a hobby shop that still has one
available?

Dave Smith

David L. Smith, Ph.D.
Director of Professional Development
Da Vinci Discovery Center, Allentown, PA

http://www.davinci-center.org <http://www.davinci-center.org/>

"Who will pick up where Leonardo left off?"

Rod, if I recall correctly, sometime around 1930 (+/-) the
bottom-actuated Type E coupler became the predominant
coupler installed on new freight cars, so the era of the
Carmer lever, and other levers for top-actuated couplers
came to a close -- for new cars. But they remained around
for a long time after that.

Tim O'Connor