Date   

Re: PFE on Wabash

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
BTW, why the emphasis on PFE in all this talk. There was a lot of
western produce in SFRE and WFE cars also.
Because we have a lot of PFE statistics. SFRD data don't seem to be out there. FGE and WFE is another big source, but I don't know their statistics or routings either.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.
And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.
I too wondered about Greg Martin's statistics. I would very much doubt that PRR got long-haul perishables to the extent of Greg's number, but of course would have handled a great deal of local perishables. Their service area in major cities like Philadelphia would of course get them a lot of carloads of not only western but southeastern produce. I note he omits B&O as well as NYC from his listing. And equalling the sum of NKP and Erie means what? Considering the PRR total carloads annually, compared to Erie and NKP, it's obvious PRR had a far smaller percentage of total traffic in perishables relative to those two.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


hopper doors

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Malcolm Laughlin" <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@> wrote:

Thanks Jeff!
That would work well with the breweries that I want to
build. Even for grain, the doors on a coal hopper seem like they'd
be a little "loose". Do you know if they put some sort of seal in
the hopper before loading the car?
==================
A lot of them were pretty tight. On the NYC we used a lot of them
for iron ore, but had a high reject rate before being sent to mines for
leaky doors. If they would hold iron ore, no problem with many
grains.
===========

Something else to think about. If they couldn't hold grain, how would
you expect them to hold the finer grades of coal. It wasn't all
lumps. Some of it is more like black dirt.


Re: PFE on Wabash

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Rich C" <richchrysler@...> wrote:

Yes, Frank.

I'm talking about the eastern end (relatively speaking) of the run,
east from Michigan via Southern Ontario (shortest route I would think)
to get to NY State, etc. via Niagara Falls and Buffalo and on to NYC,
etc. I've seen plenty of pictures of Wabash hauling great long strings
of freight through Ontario using their 2200 series K-3 Mikados, just
not sure about the PFE's coming through that route.
=====================
The big traffic on that part of the Wabash was from the automobile
industry in Michigan.

BTW, why the emphasis on PFE in all this talk. There was a lot of
western produce in SFRE and WFE cars also.


Re: PFE on Wabash

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Frank Greene" <fgreen01@...> wrote:

Are y'all talking about opposite ends of the haul? Interchanged to
the Wabash at Council Bluffs, routed through Michigan and Southern
Ontario to Niagara Falls/Buffalo for interchange to NYC, DL&W, LV, etc.?

============

Likely not much at Council Bluffs. that was not a Wabash main line.
It was one of those midwest hill and dale with constant curvature
lines. I was once a partner in a short line that owned the MO part of
that line. No evidence of it ever being a heavily (relatively) used
line.

Also, you've got pretty high circuity on that route, more than you're
likely to find on any service other than the SSW.


Re: Unusual Box Car

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "buchwaldfam" <duff@...> wrote:

Thanks Jeff!
That would work well with the breweries that I want to
build. Even for grain, the doors on a coal hopper seem like they'd
be a little "loose". Do you know if they put some sort of seal in
the hopper before loading the car?
==================
A lot of them were pretty tight. On the NYC we used a lot of them for
iron ore, but had a high reject rate before being sent to mines for
leaky doors. If they would hold iron ore, no problem with many grains.


Re: PFE on Wabash

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Rich C" <richchrysler@...> wrote:

Hmmm.....
Would that mean that the PFE shipments on the Wabash would go from
Michigan to New York State through Southern Ontario where the Wabash
had running rights on a through east/west CNR line?
=================

Yes, for their traffic to the Buffalo area. But you can be sure that
nobody except DL&W or LV would have scheduled good connections at
Buffalo for traffic from the west going further east. All the other
eastern roads were competing to get that traffic through Chicago and
St. Louis.


Re: PFE on Wabash

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Lee Thwaits" <lthwaits@...> wrote:

In the early sixties I was involved in orchard management near
Marysville, CA. There was always a Wabash salesman around wining &
dining our packing house managers and as as a result most of the fruit
went to New York auction
==============

I'd be very careful about saying "most" or "lion's share", etc.
Especially when quoting salesmen. If you believed all of them you
might have to believe that the total traffic was double or triple what
was actually handled. It only takes two railroad salesmen
saying "most" to exceed the actual traffic.

Is there any evidence that the highest flow of perishables to New York
was not through the Chicago and St. Louis gateways ? A pretty large
portion of that traffic was blocked at Roseville for North Platte and I
suspect that the majority at North Platte was blocked for Chicago
connections.


Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

This is very helpful. The data I have shows that in 1947, UP
sent 38,576 loaded cars to the WAB at KC, and in 1954 that increased to
54,487
cars.

In 1946, the RI sent 13,328 cars to the WAB at KC. In 1951, it
was 10,781 cars, and in 1953 it was 14,369.
===========
Anything in all of that data about the MILW share. I know that in the
early 60's the daily train from KC to Chicago was mostly western
perishables.


Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

tgregmrtn@... wrote:

All,

As I exhibited in TKM the PRR handled the Lions share of the hauls
for all perishable produce traffic from the Mississippi east, nearly
the sum of the NKP and Erie together, for most of the 50's (and
Likely before) until the traffic dwindled to truck and TOFC business.

==============

The wildest dreams of the red team ?

In the late 50's-early 60's the NYC had at least three daily trainloads
of perishables east from chicago and St. Louis.

And PRR couldn't touch us for service to New York and New England.


Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data - Oops ! Missed a key.

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

timboconnor@... wrote:

Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim,

I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with Gregg
Ames, the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in Chattanooga and
found him very cooperative over the phone.

Who's Barringer ? Do you mean John Barriger's collection ?



Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...> wrote:

timboconnor@... wrote:

Tim, I've heard stories that the Barringer collection is
administered with an iron fist and visits are unwelcome.
Do you know different?
Tim,
I don't know because I have never tried. I have dealt with Gregg
Ames, the curator, when he was with the NMRA Library in Chattanooga and
found him very cooperative over the phone.
===============

Who's Barriger ? Do you mean John Barriger's collection ?


Re: Hopper Help

Thomas Baker
 

Chet,

Thank you. Exactly the information I needed.. To have a C&IM hopper on the layout would have been good, but certainly in prototypical colors. Appreciate the help.

Tom

________________________________

From: STMFC@... on behalf of Chet French
Sent: Wed 3/1/2006 2:56 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Hopper Help



--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:

The posting of a link to C&IM hoppers reminds me of a question.
Severall years ago I inquired about the C&IM two-bay offset hoppers.
Someone on the list responded that the hoppers were once painted green
while in service for the C&IM. Is this accurate? If so, what tone of
green might approximate that used by the C&IM?



Tom,

C&IM hoppers in revenue service were black with white lettering. A few
of the two bay hoppers were converted to locomotive sand cars and
painted green with a red stripe running the length of the car. Colors
were probably the same as those used on the diesels.

Chet French
Dixon, IL






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Hopper Help

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:

The posting of a link to C&IM hoppers reminds me of a question.
Severall years ago I inquired about the C&IM two-bay offset hoppers.
Someone on the list responded that the hoppers were once painted green
while in service for the C&IM. Is this accurate? If so, what tone of
green might approximate that used by the C&IM?



Tom,

C&IM hoppers in revenue service were black with white lettering. A few
of the two bay hoppers were converted to locomotive sand cars and
painted green with a red stripe running the length of the car. Colors
were probably the same as those used on the diesels.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Toronto Prototype Modeller's Meet 2006

William and Anna-Marie Dewar <wmdewar@...>
 

Good Afternoon:
For those who have an interest in such events, the annual, Toronto
Meet is going to be held on 22 April, 2006 at Humber College which is
located in the north-west area of the city.

For more information go to:

http://home.interlog.com/acwelch/Railway_Prototype_Modeller_Toronto_Meet.html

Thanks
Bill Dewar on behalf of Al Welch


C&O freight car books

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@...> wrote:
According to the information in Al Kresse's book "C&O Freight Cars
Vol 1: Hopper and Gondola Cars"
Bob how is that book for pictures, where did you get it and how much
did it cost?

How do the pictures compared to the soft cover book the C&O society
reprinted (it has a black and white cover)?

Ed


Re: Hopper Help

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "David Smith" <dsmith@...> wrote:

Apologies if this has been answered a thousand times already, but
looking at Tom's picture made me suddenly wonder. Why do offset side
hoppers come back in at the top - there's a lot of labor in those little
bits of bracing, if nothing else - instead of going straight up, just as
outside braced cars do?

Dave Smith
Because the top chord would then be in the interior of the car. If the
car were to be rotary dumped (and most export terminals were using
rotary dumpers) the coal wouldn't all come out of the car, it would
bank against the top chord. Bending the top of the side sheets back to
the interior face of the posts solves this problem.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Interpreting Copeland interchange data

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 28, 6:19pm, Tony Thompson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Interpreting Copeland interchange data
Jeff Aley wrote:
      If I take the 1951 RI data + the 1947 UP data, I get 949 cars
per
week.  Of course, that's ALL loaded cars, not just reefers.  Perhaps
I
should only count the difference between the "TO" and "FROM"
interchanged
loads as the reefers?
I'm sure RI also handled westward empty reefers on the Golden State
route, destined to southern California via Tucson.

Tony,

I am also sure that RI handled westward empties. But the
interchange reports are for loaded cars only.

So, taking the 1952 Kansas City RI <--> WAB example, we have:
LOADED CARS
TO WAB......FROM WAB
13,071......1,536.

My hypothesis is that 1,536 of the cars interchanged (both TO and
FROM) are "normal" or "generic" traffic, whereas the (13,071 - 1,536 = )
11,535 excess cars sent TO the Wabash were probably reefers, which came
back empty and are therefore not represented in the "FROM" data.

I would further hypothesize that an analagous situation would
apply if one were to analyze the traffic of a coal-hauling road. I.e.
since coal hoppers tend to return empty, one would see a large bias for
the loaded traffic in a particular direction.

Regards,

-Jeff



--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: PFE on Wabash

Rich C <richchrysler@...>
 

Yes, Frank.

I'm talking about the eastern end (relatively speaking) of the run, east from Michigan via Southern Ontario (shortest route I would think) to get to NY State, etc. via Niagara Falls and Buffalo and on to NYC, etc.
I've seen plenty of pictures of Wabash hauling great long strings of freight through Ontario using their 2200 series K-3 Mikados, just not sure about the PFE's coming through that route.

Rich Chrysler

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Greene" <fgreen01@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PFE on Wabash


Are y'all talking about opposite ends of the haul? Interchanged to the Wabash at Council Bluffs, routed through Michigan and Southern Ontario to Niagara Falls/Buffalo for interchange to NYC, DL&W, LV, etc.?

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN
fgreen01@...


----- Original Message -----
From: tgregmrtn@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PFE on Wabash



Rich Chrysler writes:

"Hmmm.....
Would that mean that the PFE shipments on the Wabash would go from Michigan
to New York State through Southern Ontario where the Wabash had running
rights on a through east/west CNR line?

Rich Chrysler"

No, Rich more like Council Bluff via the UP, if the CNW didn't get the haul
to Chicago.

Greg Martin


Re: Unusual Box Car

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 2:29pm, buchwaldfam wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Unusual Box Car
Thanks Jeff!
That would work well with the breweries that I want to
build.
Even for grain, the doors on a coal hopper seem like they'd
be a little "loose". Do you know if they put some sort of seal in
the hopper before loading the car?

Regards,
Phil

Phil,

I don't know how they sealed the doors, but I can imagine some
kind of paper seal...

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

141721 - 141740 of 193499