Date   

Re: cement and other minerals

Tim O'Connor
 

There's an incredible amount of online stuff about mineral production
in the US, including this huge archive

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/EcoNatRes/EcoNatRes-idx?type=turn&entity=EcoNatRes005608670014&isize=XL

The above page shows that in 1960, 10 states had no cement plants
at all, and most production came from Michigan, Pennsylvania, Texas
and California. The 10 states: Alaska, Nevada, North Dakota, Vermont,
Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Delaware
and New Jersey.

Asbestos production held steady at about 1,000,000 tons a year in
the 25 years following WWII... I wonder if it was shipped in covered
hoppers?

Tim O'Connor


Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2006

prr282
 

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2006 is coming up soon--March
24 thru 26, to be exact. Visit our web site for additional
information: www.phillynmra.org/rpmmeet.html

For a timetable, registration form, and additional information, click on
to Download Entire PDF Schedule, Click here
(about the middle of the page)

Please note that the last day to mail your registration is March 15.
Walk in registration will be available at the meet.

Paul Backenstose
Chairman


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Tim O'Connor
 

Other than lower Michigan, the Kansas City area, and upstate
New York, what other areas of the country produce rock salt in
great quantities? And was rock salt as popular for road use in
the 1950's as it became in later years?

Tim O.


Re: General covered hopper questions

Brian Termunde
 

In the early 1950's, the Park Service was building a new entrance road into
the Grand Canyon National Park as well as the State of Arizona rebuilding the
current AZ 64 from near Williams to the Park Entrance. I am guessing that the
cement would have come from the Southwest Portland Cement plant in
Victorville, Calif., unless anyone knows of any closer source? TIA

Take Care!

Brian R. Termunde
West Jordan, Utah

"Ship and Travel the Grand Canyon Line!"
Grand Canyon Railway
Utah District


Re: General covered hopper questions

Tim O'Connor
 

Al

A factor that kept specialized cars on home rails was the fixed per
diem rates of that era, which meant that an expensive car earned
no more than an old, cheap car when it went offline. And therefore
the recipient road in effect got a nice expensive car for less than it
was worth! The affect of this was that until these cars become very
common (and also, any cars with roller bearing trucks) the railroads
tried not to send them off home rails if they could avoid it.

Tim O.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "al_brown03" <abrown@fit.edu>
Several threads lately have come to related conclusions, namely that
the movements of specialized cars were much more predictable than
those of general-service boxcars. Whether the specialized cars would
therefore *stay close to home*, though, depends on their service.


Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frisco PS2)

Tim O'Connor
 

Tim, what you wrote is true, but don't misquote Shawn. He said
"70 ton cement hopper", which is not the same thing as writing
"70 ton covered hopper". People who have been looking at these
things for a long time (like most STMFC members) know that those
terms together imply a 2 bay covered hopper of around 2000cft or
less.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>

"70-Ton" is not a good descriptive adjective for a covered hopper
particularly in the 1950's.


Re: General covered hopper questions

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote:
For a covered
hopper in cement service, that range was limited because the cost of
transportation, and thus, total cost of the product to the consumer,
escalated the further away from their point of origin - cement being a
low value commodity with widespread cement plants nation wide.

Tim and all:
The effect this can have on a modeled fleet is important. For example
in the 1948 Monon conductor's logs I was surprised at two predominant
home road car types: covered hoppers and side-dump gons. After
reading this thread, it occurs to me that these cars were likely in
captive service. According to the logs and despite their small
numbers, I should see more of them on my layout than Monon boxcars!
(in 1948 there were only 30 covered hoppers and 20 side dump cars vs.
1500 or so boxcars)
I wonder if this is the case on other roads; the boxcars being
swallowed up in the national pool and more specialized cars staying
close to home in captive service?
Mike,

It happened all the time with open top hoppers - ergo, so few eastern hoppers going over Sherman Hill compared to eastern boxcars.

Meanwhile, I don't believe MONON's 20 side dump cars were even listed in the ORER's, and the 30 covered hoppers were on a tether to the cement plants on the MONON in southern Indiana (I assume).

Take Care,

Tim Gilbert


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Tim. That's one. As my daughter would say, "Name five".

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@sunlink.net>

Seven of B&M's #5500-5519 series of ACF 1,958cf covered hoppers were
sold to Revere Sugar in Jan-Feb 1956, and another six were sold to
Revere in 1958.
Tim Gilbert


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Michael Weiss wrote:

With all the discussion on coveed hoppers of cement and where they owuld go, does anyone have a rule of thumb for economic distance cement (and other low value bulk commodities) may have been shipped? I thought cement plants were not evenly distributed around the country, but were located near limesstone quarries since shipping limestone to a cement plant was really not desirable as roughly half the weight of the limestone is lost in the kiln, given off as carbon dioxide.
Mike,

If you had a map of all the cement plants in the US, you might be able to judge which plants were competitive and which plants were not for specific geographic areas of interest. Cement hauled quite a bit longer than cement hauled in the east may be competitive because of the lack of plants in the area while, in the east, there was less distance between plants.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:


Schuyler

If you're going to use it on the club (West Virginia/Virginia) then
a Frisco cement hopper would be an oddity. Gypsum, or bauxite,
silica sand, or some additive for a refinery would be good. I like
the cracking catalyst idea someone mentioned, since these often
come from ancient fossilized rock and are quite valuable, so they
can be shipped a long way -- and the east coast (Delaware, PA,
NJ) is littered with refineries of all kinds. That gives you a long
haul from one stage to the other!

I don't know of any of these small 2 bay cars used for granulated
sugar. The smallest sugar covered hoppers I know of in the 50's
would be single bay airslides, which were used for starch, sugar
and flour.
Tim,

Seven of B&M's #5500-5519 series of ACF 1,958cf covered hoppers were sold to Revere Sugar in Jan-Feb 1956, and another six were sold to Revere in 1958.

Tim Gilbert


Re: General covered hopper questions (Was: Re: Frisco PS2)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

In the early 1960's ( a tad beyond our time frame, but the point is
still relevant) Steve Patterson took a photo of Cotton Belt's "Motor
Special" arriving at the yard in Tyler, Texas - deep in SSW territory.
Right behind the train is an AT&SF 70-ton cement hopper, sitting
on one of the leads into the La Gloria oil refinery. I'd have to look at
a map, but IIRC the Santa Fe didn't get that close to the Cotton Belt
in that area - although they did cross the SSW at grade further down
at MacGregor.
Shawn,

"70-Ton" is not a good descriptive adjective for a covered hopper particularly in the 1950's. Of the 46,952 covered hoppers owned or leased by Class I RR's in the US on December 31, 1956, the average nominal capacity was 69.282075 tons per car - aggregate nominal capacity for all the 46,952 cars was 3,252,932 tons. If there were only covered hoppers of 70 and 50 ton nominal capacities, that means 96.4% (45,267) of them had nominal capacities of 70 tons with the rest (1,685 cars) at 50 tons.
Hence, in describing Covered Hoppers in the 1950's, it would be better to use Cubic Capacities or Inside Lengths. The standard "cement" Covered Hopper built by ACF in the 1940's and 1950's had cubic capacities of 1,958' while "cement" PS-2's of the era had cubic capacities of 2,003': - the adjective "cement" is used in lieu of other dense commodities like sugar.

The standard "grain" Covered Hoppers of the era, also having 70 tons nominal capacities had cubic capacities of around 3,000' while Covered Hoppers designed to carry less dense commodities like plastic pellets would have greater cubic capacities than even the "grain" hoppers. At this moment, I cannot think of any such "grain" or "plastic pellets" covered hoppers in service in the 1950's. There were covered hoppers designed to carry carbon black, but I believe these were privately owned.


Beyond giving me an excuse to buy one of Kadee's AT&SF PS-2's,
I've often wondered just what was in that hopper. Cement? Maybe,
although the SSW certainly had sources of cement online. In those
days, did cracking catalyst move in 70-ton hoppers? That would be
one commodity that the refinery would need, for sure. Without having
access to the appropriate records, I guess we'll never know...
Powdered Petroleum Coke or Carbon Black shipped in bulk may be petroleum derivatives requiring covered hoppers although maybe not on the SSW.

Tim Gilbert


Re: General covered hopper questions

al_brown03
 

Several threads lately have come to related conclusions, namely that
the movements of specialized cars were much more predictable than
those of general-service boxcars. Whether the specialized cars would
therefore *stay close to home*, though, depends on their service.
Covered hoppers hauling cement, probably yes, for the reasons stated
in this thread. ACL and SAL phosphate hoppers, yes, because most of
the traffic was from mines in interior Florida to Florida ports.
Auto parts cars, by contrast, might move highly predictably but from
Detroit to assembly plants across the country, e.g. on the West
Coast.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Aufderheide" <mononinmonon@...>
wrote:

Tim Gilbert wrote:
For a covered
hopper in cement service, that range was limited because the
cost of
transportation, and thus, total cost of the product to the
consumer,
escalated the further away from their point of origin - cement
being a
low value commodity with widespread cement plants nation wide.

Tim and all:

The effect this can have on a modeled fleet is important. For
example
in the 1948 Monon conductor's logs I was surprised at two
predominant
home road car types: covered hoppers and side-dump gons. After
reading this thread, it occurs to me that these cars were likely in
captive service. According to the logs and despite their small
numbers, I should see more of them on my layout than Monon
boxcars!
(in 1948 there were only 30 covered hoppers and 20 side dump cars
vs.
1500 or so boxcars)

I wonder if this is the case on other roads; the boxcars being
swallowed up in the national pool and more specialized cars staying
close to home in captive service?

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Patrick Wider <pwider@...>
 

I thought it was the water of crystallization (H2O) that was driven off by the kiln. No?

Pat Wider

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Michael Weiss <mikeweiss@...> wrote:

With all the discussion on coveed hoppers of cement and where they owuld go, does
anyone have a rule of thumb for economic distance cement (and other low value bulk
commodities) may have been shipped? I thought cement plants were not evenly distributed
around the country, but were located near limesstone quarries since shipping limestone to
a cement plant was really not desirable as roughly half the weight of the limestone is lost
in the kiln, given off as carbon dioxide.

Mike Weiss




Re: General covered hopper questions

Tim O'Connor
 

Additives for gasoline? I don't think so! :-)

I wonder if they contained detergent used to clean the pipes?

(Only half in jest. They must have needed to scrub them out from
time to time.)

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Clark Propst" <cepropst@netconx.net>
There are photos of two bay covered hoppers being delivered to the local oil
pipeline outlet. I've been told these cars carried additives for the gasoline?


Re: Frisco PS2

Tim O'Connor
 

Schuyler

If you're going to use it on the club (West Virginia/Virginia) then
a Frisco cement hopper would be an oddity. Gypsum, or bauxite,
silica sand, or some additive for a refinery would be good. I like
the cracking catalyst idea someone mentioned, since these often
come from ancient fossilized rock and are quite valuable, so they
can be shipped a long way -- and the east coast (Delaware, PA,
NJ) is littered with refineries of all kinds. That gives you a long
haul from one stage to the other!

I don't know of any of these small 2 bay cars used for granulated
sugar. The smallest sugar covered hoppers I know of in the 50's
would be single bay airslides, which were used for starch, sugar
and flour.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
I'll go with cement unless somebody can justify sugar. Were there
sugar refineries on the Frisco (the spelling of which I will correct in
the header


Re: UTLX19656 PRM cover photo

Richard Hendrickson
 

Sorry, guys, I hit "send" before I'd finished my post. I meant to write that I have a photo of UTLX 46007, an identical car in the 46000-46062 series. Given the tank size, I don't know any easy way to kitbash these cars.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: UTLX19656 PRM cover photo

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 6, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

On the lower half of the rear cover is a photo dated 1939 by Lee
Russell -
part of the Office of War Information, Library of Congress
collection.  The
photo shows UTLX19656, a four horizontal course tank car.  I don'
think its
been discussed here before - my apologies if I missed it!

As I look at it, I am thinking either Tichy or P2K 10000 gallon tank
- on a
kitbashed or scratch frame.  I'm wondering whether there is data to
identify
the capacity of the car?  I'm also wondering about the tank's length
and
diameter.  And how many similar cars in the UTLX fleet?
These were very early (ca. 1918) UTL X-3s and were 8,000 gal. cars, so
neither the Tichy nor P2K 10K tanks will work. According to the 1952
UTL "Classification of Equipment" book, UTLX 19656 was in the
19351-19849 series. I also have a photo of UTLX

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


UP B-50-19 boxcar photos posted

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
The UP diagram for this class doesn't show this information. FWIW,
photos show Universal on UP 183285 and Ajax on UP 183518 and UP
183354.
This must be photo day for me. I've just uploaded five photos of UP
183206 taken at the Orange Empire Railway Museum in Perris CA in March
1989. The photos are in folder UP B-50-19 in the STMFC Photos section.
One of the photos is a cropped closeup of the brake gear, another
shows a truck pretty well.

Tom Madden


Covered hopper bulk loads

Michael Weiss
 

With all the discussion on coveed hoppers of cement and where they owuld go, does anyone have a rule of thumb for economic distance cement (and other low value bulk commodities) may have been shipped? I thought cement plants were not evenly distributed around the country, but were located near limesstone quarries since shipping limestone to a cement plant was really not desirable as roughly half the weight of the limestone is lost in the kiln, given off as carbon dioxide.

Mike Weiss


Re: Frico PS2

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ah, even better, thanks Sam.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of mail@kadee.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:05 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Frico PS2

Hello Mr. Larrabee, and group,

We have quite a few photos of these hoppers and the
majority (but certainly not all) have signs of heavy cement
loading. The 84084 was done from a builders photo depicting a
factory new car so we do not know its'
particular loading usage. We have a photo of 84050 with heavy
cement spillage that has stenciling "When Empty Return to
Dewey Rocky Mountain Cement Company, Tulsa, OK." Many other
cement cars do not have "return"
stenciling or it's covered with cement dust.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Frico PS2


I have a Kadee Frisco PS2 (No. 84084, if that matters).
What would the
Frisco have been shipping in
these cars?

SGL




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