Date   

Re: Salt

Justin Kahn
 

The reason your father complained about salt was not just that it made a mess, but that until various coated or chemically-treated steels started to be used by the 1980's for automobiles, the average longevity for them in the snow belt (where I grew up and coincidentally where quite a bit of salt is produced) was about three years, by which time the floor and major underbody components were thoroughly rusted out (and you can imagine what it did to the exhaust system).
Similar reactions obviously were the case with freight cars used to transport it, which is why another list member previously noted that cars usually assigned to that service were on their last legs (er, wheels), at the level of hide-service, never to be used again for more remunerative service.
As winter highway maintenance increasingly turned to salt rather than sand (or cinders, the road covering of choice in Fairbanks, where it is too cold most of the winter for salt to melt the ice), generally during the 1950's--I remember my uncle, who worked for the Erie County highway department, getting called out during blizzards not only to plow snow but to shovel sand out of the truck bed (the crews were gratified when automatic sanders replaced having to stand in the back in icy wind and do it manually) in the 1940's--I am guessing freight car manufacturers began figuring out how to line the insides of cars dedicated to salt-carriage so that they lasted long enough to repay the investment. Although it starts to get beyond the scope of this list, the Genesee and Wyoming, next county over from where I grew up and a major originator of salt traffic, began to buy their own cars, mostly covered hoppers, expecting them to outlast salt action.
On a related thought, I recall visiting the enormous Morton Salt complex in Silver Springs, Wyoming County, NY when I was in grade school in the early 1950's; this was a brine-operation, with water being pumped into the salt deposits to bring the salt to the surface to be evaporated. The complex was on the Erie and BR&P, and I don't recall much of any other kind of freight cars than boxcars, but that is because the primary use of the product was table-salt (unlike the G&W industrial product which was mined), and it was already packaged as such when it left the plant. That may have changed in the years since.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Subject: Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

I tend to think sand was more common earlier. I vaguely recall my dad
griping about road salt, in the early 60s. Older list members probably
know more about this than I do.

Salt will get a paved road clear, of course, by lowering the freezing
point of water and melting the snow off the road. If it's too cold out
that doesn't work, so in very cold parts of the country (e.g. Montana)
sand is common to this day. If sand is put on a road it's still snow-
covered but there's better traction. I suspect salt became more common
as more roads in rural areas were paved. If you salt a dirt road all
you accomplish is to start mud season early.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


Cement Shipping

Justin Kahn
 

Actually, I seem to remember that some of the Liberty ships (or was it the Victory class?) were MADE of concrete. I suppose that is no more off the subject than Hundmann's series on lake freighters in MM, but I plead in extenuation that the cement used to construct them must have been shipped to the Kaiser yards by rail.
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.



David - I had an old aquaintance, H.B. Zachry, Sr., who did a lot of
heavy construction for the military. This is slightly out of the
germaine time period, but the same reasoning may apply a few years
before. By his own account, in the middle 1960's his company
constructed, from scratch, the air bases at Da Nang and Ton Su Nut
in South Viet Nam and a base or two in Thailand. These were LARGE
projects, particularly the B-52 runways in Thailand. He obtained
and outfitted a couple of WWII liberty ships just to carry cement
for the projects, and the ICC rearranged the tariffs on cement so
that the California plants of Kaiser Cement could send their entire
output to Southeast Asia for about a year and a half. The tariff
changes lowered shipping costs for cement from as far away as Utah,
so that California consumers would not suffer higher construction
costs while the runways were built. An instance of the government's
thumb on the scale! He did not say whether the railroads were
reimbursed by the government for the lost shipping charges!
A.T.
Kott
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/


Re: ADMIN: Amazing.

armprem
 

What is wrong with using the term,"alternate form of power"? <G> Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Smith" <dsmith@davinci-center.org>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] ADMIN: Amazing.


They probably think moderate jail means not too bad, as opposed to
severe jail, say...

Dave Smith, who found a very interesting picture in the LOC images of a
steam era tank car, but declines to say more because it was being used
to fuel a sort of locomotive that shall remain nameless (if not
non-existent) on these premises and because he likes to eat ;-)



Clang! Amazing. I guess some guys just can't read, don't read, don't
mind
jail, may not know what moderate means...or just don't care. Not a
problem
for me. <G>.

Mike Brock
STMFC Jailer







Yahoo! Groups Links








--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/278 - Release Date: 3/9/2006


Re: ADMIN: Amazing.

David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

They probably think moderate jail means not too bad, as opposed to
severe jail, say...

Dave Smith, who found a very interesting picture in the LOC images of a
steam era tank car, but declines to say more because it was being used
to fuel a sort of locomotive that shall remain nameless (if not
non-existent) on these premises and because he likes to eat ;-)



Clang! Amazing. I guess some guys just can't read, don't read, don't
mind
jail, may not know what moderate means...or just don't care. Not a
problem
for me. <G>.

Mike Brock
STMFC Jailer


ADMIN: Amazing.

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Clang! Amazing. I guess some guys just can't read, don't read, don't mind jail, may not know what moderate means...or just don't care. Not a problem for me. <G>.

Mike Brock
STMFC Jailer


Re: Union Pacific SD 24.= Not

SUVCWORR@...
 

SD24 were built from July 1958 through March 1963. Can't help with the first unit.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 15:42:12 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Union Pacific SD 24.= Not


Although Mike doesn't know about SD24's or much else after 1953
:-) I think I'm right to think the SD24 was around before 1960, and
that the first of them went to the CB&Q not UP... I could be wrong.
Please don't throw me in jail!

Tim O.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>

And, I guess an SD-24...whatever that is.


Yahoo! Groups Links


American Memory Collection was Hopper interior colors

Bruce Smith
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Mullen" <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:
Try:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsowhome.html
and try searching for any railroad relevant term that occurs to you.
The search will return a list of captions.
There's no interface with pages of thumbnails, if that's what you
had in mind - but with over 160,000 photos, that might not be too
pracitcal either.
Jack,

Au contraire! You can indeed search by thumbnails. Just click on one of the
subcollections (in this case color). Type in your search or select your browse (I browsed by
Jack Delano). When the list comes up you will see the captions. At the top, click on
Gallery View and that will get you the thumbnails. When you click on the thumbnails, the
next page shows you the collection data

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Location, Location, Location

raildata@...
 

This discussion reminds me of how the great (and one and only) Hal Carstens
help with a discussion as to exactly where the Miswest was.

He says that the Midwest starts at the west bank of the Hudson River and the
West begins at the west bank of the Delaware River.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO


Re: Digest Number 3029

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 3/14/2006 3:51:52 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@yahoogroups.com writes:
There's no interface with pages of thumbnails, if that's what you
had in mind - but with over 160,000 photos, that might not be too
pracitcal either.
In the color section there is. Once you search and get the list of captions,
go to gallery view.

Jerry Michels


Re: Union Pacific SD 24.= Not

Tim O'Connor
 

Although Mike doesn't know about SD24's or much else after 1953
:-) I think I'm right to think the SD24 was around before 1960, and
that the first of them went to the CB&Q not UP... I could be wrong.
Please don't throw me in jail!

Tim O.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>

And, I guess an SD-24...whatever that is.


Re: Harriman Codes -Some Other RR's Systems

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Small caps are used to indicate lower case in fonts that don't have
lower case.
I sure can't think of a font with small caps but no lower
case. The reverse, sure.
Tony,

True, if you work as a typesetter, rather than a painter in a railroad
car shop. In it's loosest sense, a "font" is the collection of
characters that that are designed to be used together. Railroads
defined their lettering "font" with a drawing of the characters to be
used, and they most often did not include lower case, unless someone
specifically wanted lower case. That drawing defined the font everyone
involved had to work with, so if the class was "Rr" and the Mechanical
Dept. felt no need to draw lower case, they prepared stencil drawings
using a 4" R followed by a 3" R, and that was it. For purposes of this
discussion, what we really need is copies of typed correspondence to
see if the railroad intended it to be "Rr" or "RR".


Re: ADMIN: Re: Atlas Union Pacific SD 24.= Not

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bill Schneider...noted oceanographer...referring to the Atlas SD 24...says:


Awww, come on Mike - at least it was UP... :>)
True enough. UP brought us Big Boy, Challengers, 800's, 4-12-2's, partly responsible for PFE, round cornered box cars, the AAR 53 ft flat, streamliners, the greyhound scheme on steam power, partly responsible for Harriman cars, gas turbines, Sun Valley, Buford, Cheyenne and Laramie. They also brought us the M-10000 [ ugh ], the streamlined 4-8-2 and 4-6-2 for the 49er [ ugh again ] and ACR box cars, a coal fired turbine, and did away with the greyhound scheme. And, I guess an SD-24...whatever that is. So...some bad with the good. Sort of like messages. I suppose I should make sure those in jail get fed tonight...if I can remember where the jail is.

Mike Brock
STMFC Jailer


Re: GATC/Pfaudler milk cars

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Bruce,
According to one message on the Milk Cars List, the 6k gal GPEX car at
the St Louis Museum (http://www.museumoftransport.org/collection.htm)
was part of an group built in 1947. There likely were others built
earlier.


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Bruce Smith
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:22 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] GATC/Pfaudler milk cars

Folks,

Things get here on the slow boat sometimes and I saw my first IM GATC/
Pfaudler 40' milk car kit this weekend! I've searched the archives,
RPI etc to no avail - what was the build date on these cars?

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Hopper interior colors (was Re: Harriman Codes -Some Other RR's Systems)

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Using the URL provided and entering a search topic (I tried "Pullman"
just for a test) yields what they call a "List View". There is a hot
link for a "Gallery view" which shows thumbnails!


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Jack Mullen
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 10:53 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Hopper interior colors (was Re: Harriman Codes -Some
Other RR's Systems)

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "David Smith" <dsmith@...> wrote:

There are many other steam- and transition-era photos in this
collection, but browsing from the root directory (truncating the
URL) is
tedious and devoid of information about time and place. Does
anyone
know of an interface to make that easier - especially one that
might
include captions?

Dave Smith, really enjoying this trove of photos

Try:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsowhome.html
and try searching for any railroad relevant term that occurs to you.
The search will return a list of captions.
There's no interface with pages of thumbnails, if that's what you
had in mind - but with over 160,000 photos, that might not be too
pracitcal either.

Jack Mullen






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Hopper interior colors (was Re: Harriman Codes -Some Other RR's Systems)

David Smith <dsmith@...>
 

So in doing some searching, I found an image of the corner of a gon that
looks like it has two horizontal panels instead of the vertical panels
on most gons. It also looks shorter:
http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a35000/1a35000/1a35061v.jpg

Anybody know anything about this car?

Dave Smith


Re: ADMIN: Re: Atlas Union Pacific SD 24.= Not

Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
 

Awww, come on Mike - at least it was UP... :>)

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Brock" <brockm@brevard.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: ADMIN: Re: [STMFC] Atlas Union Pacific SD 24.= Not


Arnold van Heyst writes with reference to an Atlas SD-24:

And what is the best way to do so?
Some good quality photo's would help a lot.

Arnold van Heyst.
Hmmm, here's another reference to an Atlas SD-24 and, as far as I
know...there ain't no such steam era frt car. The originator has
previously
received a note that this subject does not belong on the
STMFC...Clang!!...What was that? Sounded like a door closing in Moderate
Jail [ the food's pretty bad ]. I suggest that anyone responding on the
STMFC might consider not doing so...unless they need to get away for
awhile...and need to be on a diet.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner [ and head jailer ]






Yahoo! Groups Links








Re: B&O M65 vs. M64

mopacfirst
 

Thanks. I don't have this book, and I remember seeing one in my
local dealer's inventory but didn't buy it before someone else did.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who buys a complete book just to do one
freight car, although one project leads to another, and another, ....

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Two M65's are shown in Bossler's "B&O Color Guide to Freight and
Passenger Equipment", p 65 (really; both on same page). Both have
the style you describe for their class, with the shorter sidesill
reinforcement plus bolster tab and intermediate tab.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mopacfirst" <ron.merrick@> wrote:

This is a continuation of a previous thread.
I finally found a shot of a B&O M65 <snip>
Ron Merrick


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Brown wrote:
Salt will get a paved road clear, of course, by lowering the freezing
point of water and melting the snow off the road.
Sort of. Actually, it makes a water-salt solution whose freezing point is lower than water.

If it's too cold out
that doesn't work, so in very cold parts of the country (e.g. Montana)
sand is common to this day.
True. The water-salt eutectic (minimum attainable temperature) is around 10 degrees F, IIRC. Below that you don't have liquid any more.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Harriman Codes -Some Other RR's Systems

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Small caps are used to indicate lower case in fonts that don't have
lower case.
I sure can't think of a font with small caps but no lower case. The reverse, sure.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Covered hopper bulk loads

al_brown03
 

I tend to think sand was more common earlier. I vaguely recall my dad
griping about road salt, in the early 60s. Older list members probably
know more about this than I do.

Salt will get a paved road clear, of course, by lowering the freezing
point of water and melting the snow off the road. If it's too cold out
that doesn't work, so in very cold parts of the country (e.g. Montana)
sand is common to this day. If sand is put on a road it's still snow-
covered but there's better traction. I suspect salt became more common
as more roads in rural areas were paved. If you salt a dirt road all
you accomplish is to start mud season early.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:

Other than lower Michigan, the Kansas City area, and upstate
New York, what other areas of the country produce rock salt in
great quantities? And was rock salt as popular for road use in
the 1950's as it became in later years?

Tim O.

134861 - 134880 of 187154