Date   

Re: Proto track and wheel standards...was Re: Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

In fact such turnouts will not work at all under NMRA stds even if you
had the space, time, talent, and inclination to build one. The points
would be so long that they would get bent by passing locos and the frog
would be so long that wheels (even code 110 wheels) would drop right in
- even the wheels of steam era freight cars. To overcome these
problems you would have to use hardened steel points and fine scale
stds.


regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:31 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Proto track and wheel standards...was Re: [STMFC] Re: A
very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Mike Brock wrote:
The frog sizes for the turnout at Dale Jct on Sherman Hill are number
20.
I remember reading about an SP track improvement program, in
which No. 16 crossovers in Nevada were being replaced with No. 20. This

is a little beyond what most modelers can or will do <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Proto track and wheel standards...was Re: Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Andy Carlson
 

Yes, High Speed cross-overs are large numbered
switches, but keep this in mind- most switches in use
are not High Speed cross overs but regular switches.
Check out frog ratios when you next visit some real
trackage. Simply pace out 10 large steps, then measure
the divergent gap with your same step. You might find
that prototypical switches are mostly closer to # 8s
than 16s or 20s. We had a yard in So CA which had # 6s
until it was removed.

Our biggest deviance from the real railroad is in our
track radius.

-Andy Carlson

--- Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
wrote:

Mike Brock wrote:
The frog sizes for the turnout at Dale Jct on
Sherman Hill are number
20.
I remember reading about an SP track
improvement program, in
which No. 16 crossovers in Nevada were being
replaced with No. 20. This
is a little beyond what most modelers can or will do
<g>.


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Roger Robar <rrobar@...>
 

Thanks Dennis, I couldn't have said it any better myself. We used 5/8" bolts
with large heavy washers on the flat car project I talked about in my
original post.

Roger Robar



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dennis Storzek
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:26 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...> wrote:

Sounds good, Tim, but 'tain't so. Many flat car drawings show
interlocking or T&G planking; and every photo I've ever seen sure looks
like it is laid real tight. I've never seen any crown, either. Anyway,
most expansion from damp is along the grain, and that's across the deck
width, not along the deck from board to board.
I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly backwards,
Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the grain, but shrinks
and swells appreciably across the grain. This is useful for making barrels,
water tanks, and hot tubs water tight; simply fit the boards to be a good
fit when dry, then fill with water. As the wood swells, it expands against
the steel hoops and tightens to the point that it doesn't leak.

How does this affect flatcar decks? It doesn't. Just like the barrel bands
and tank hoops, the flatcar frame is so much stronger than the amount of
pressure generated by the swelling wood that the wood just compresses. It
doesn't tear loose from its fastenings because the fastenings are HUGE;
1/2" or 5/8" diameter bolts as I recall.

Why drain the deck at all? Railroad cars rarely sit dead level, and anyway
the water will just shake or blow off a moving car. Years ago, when I
worked for the transit authority, we always wedged or jacked platform
decking tight; gaps between the boards were considered a tripping hazard.
Evaporation was relied on to dry the deck surface.


Dennis Storzek




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_____


Re: Proto track and wheel standards...was Re: Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
The frog sizes for the turnout at Dale Jct on Sherman Hill are number 20.
I remember reading about an SP track improvement program, in which No. 16 crossovers in Nevada were being replaced with No. 20. This is a little beyond what most modelers can or will do <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: DL&W 40' 1937 AAR boxcars 51400-51749

S. Busch <SCSBusch@...>
 

Thanks, Tim !

- Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@comcast.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] DL&W 40' 1937 AAR boxcars 51400-51749


CDS #367 (HO scale)
At 01:17 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote:
That's a nice looking car! I'd like to make a copy, too.
Does anyone besides Champion have decals for it ??
Thanks --
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


Re: HO wheels (again) (was Re: A very short intro...)

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis, NWSL used to sell some wheelsets with a .072 tread and RP-25
flanges. These do work on ordinary trackwork -- I had some cars on a
club layout for a couple of years and they never had any problems. That
.009 difference between the true scale width and the .072 must have
been why. But I think the NMRA only covers the .088 profile correct?

That's not quite right either. The proper name for the NMRA RP-25 wheel
that is .088" wide is "Code 88", as defined in NMRA RP-25.

The NWSL PROTO:HO wheelsets are bastard mix of scale size wheels (the same
wheel profile that they sell as P:87) mounted on the axle to the
NMRA S-4.2 back-to-back dimension. The intention was to create a wheelset
that would work through turnouts built to NMRA S-3 standards (properly
gauged P:87 wheels come nowhere near the gaurdrails). The problem is that
while the PROTO:HO wheels are properly guarded, the narrow tread drops into
the frog and gets lost, never to return. Filling the frog doesn't help, as
the P:87 flange depth is less than half the RP-25 standard, and so once
modified, standard wheels can't use the track anymore. As a compromise
design, it just doesn't work.

Dennis Storzek


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Doug Brown <g.brown1@...>
 

Tony, Just imagine wood trestles if you were right <G>. Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:16 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)


Dennis Storzek wrote:
I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly
backwards, Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the
grain, but shrinks and swells appreciably across the grain.
Dennis is right and I was wrong. I was confusing the shrinkage
with strength data I was using recently.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links









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Re: WFE/FGE Reefer Hatch Latches/Hatch props

Tim O'Connor
 

Yes I know -- the Tichy latches are for the PFE R-40-4. I guess
I should have said "those particular PFE R-30-18 latches" ?
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

At 12:18 PM 3/17/2006, you wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:
Andy, those PFE latches are a different style.
Calling them "PFE" won't do, because PFE used both styles at
different times.

Tony Thompson


Proto track and wheel standards...was Re: Re: A very short intro and a heckava lot of questions...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor responds to:



It looks like the Proto:88 wheelsets are best route to go.
With:

Rich, if you use that terminology you're going to confuse the
Proto:87 modelers!
Not only them...but a few others as well.

The Reboxx and other .088 profile wheels are
not prototypical -- they are NMRA RP conforming wheelsets.
Well...like Dennis Storzek notes...I don't think this is totally accurate. I haven't found a "code 88" wheel yet that conforms to the NMRA RP-25 code 88 wheel. The term "code 88" [ an NMRA term ] refers to the width of the total wheel...flange plus tread. At least some wheels appear to be code 88 treads [ RP-25 width of .063" ] with code 110 flanges. Such a wheel will operate successfully through frogs built to NMRA Track Standard 3.2 as long as the frog is less than that associated with a number 10 turnout. As the distance between the point of the frog to the wing rail increases...and it does as frog numbers increase...the distance that the wheel's tread must travel to find the wing rail for support increases. A wider tread permits the tread to reach this support sooner than that of a more narrow one. Track flangeways built to NMRA Standard 3.2 are designed to accomodate the wheel tread of a code 110 wheel. The so-called code 88 wheel [ with code 110 flange ] will present a more accurate appearance with its more narrow wheel tread but when a more accurate sized turnout is used, the wheel will fall into the gap between the point of the frog and wing rail. Note that a number 10 turnout frog...larger than probably 99% of those used by modelers...is too small for prototypical mainline function and is primarily of industrial siding size. The frog sizes for the turnout at Dale Jct on Sherman Hill are number 20.

I should note as well that there might, indeed, be real code 88 wheels being produced. I would use them on frogs built to NMRA S-3.2 with concern.

Tim continues with:

Proto:87 wheelset will not run on NMRA standard trackwork.
Tim probably refers to NMRA Tracdk Standard S-3.2. The NMRA has a track standard for Proto 87...S-3.1 and wheels built to Proto 87 standards will run on track built to such standards.

Mike Brock


lube oil in the steam era

ed_mines
 

Didn't cars use much more oil years ago? I remember a neighbor had
a '48 or '49 car when I was a kid in the mid '50s and he was always
putting oil in his car from a box of glass bottles with metal tops
which he would get refilled.

I have no recollection of my father ever putting oil in his car; it
must have been done much less frequently at a service station.

Maybe our neighbors car burned lube oil with the gas like a lawn
mover, either by design or circumstance.

Were triple dome tank cars were used to transport lube oil in bulk?
That way a smaller shipment could be sent.


Ed


Re: WFE/FGE Reefer Hatch Latches/Hatch props

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Andy, those PFE latches are a different style. The original request
was, I think, looking for the TICHY/SUNSHINE style latches which have
a series of holes in them, presumably for pinning the hatches open at
any desired angle. The later latches are a "ratchet" style with stops
for holding the hatches open.
Calling them "PFE" won't do, because PFE used both styles at different times.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly backwards,
Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the grain, but shrinks
and swells appreciably across the grain.
Dennis is right and I was wrong. I was confusing the shrinkage with strength data I was using recently.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: St Paul Bridge & Terminal Company/CGW stock car

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:
A logical assumption would be that the equipment, along with the
railway, transferred to the CGW. But in the corporate world logical
assumptions are not always the order of the day. It is possible
that the stock cars were already nearing the end of their useful
life and were simply retired. I know that I once saw a photo of an
M&StL stock car at the Spring Valley depot. The shot was taken in
the teen years of the previous century, and I the appearance of the
car leads me to believe that it did not make it into the late
Forties and may have been gone sooner than that. Thanks, Gene, for
your help and thanks, Tim. Still, I do wonder whether any photos of
those cars exist.

I don't know if this car was one under discussion but I recall that
Charlie Winters has a photo of a CGW truss rod stock car. The car
may had had wood outside braces like the NTCentral stock cars. I
don't know if this was a Sisk/Winters negative or one added to the
collection.

Ed


Re: Pre-Arab Oil

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:

Two comments: Pennzoil used to ship in bulk to packaging plants.
There is/was one in Alameda, California on the Alameda Belt Line, a
small facility with just two tracks and probably covering about 1/4
city block. Just model size. Perhaps Quaker State did this too.
And in the old days the containers were 100% steel; such speciality
containers were usually *not* cranked out at the nearest can factory as such
facilities were normally dedicated to making food cans... usually for the
cannery right next door. So in practical terms for a modeler this makes
empty cans of this sort something that would be shipped over greater
distances than one might guess (especially on the west coast where demand
for food cans often exceeded locally produced supply). Paint cans are
another such speciality item.

Dave Nelson


when in NY City......

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...> asked:
So my question might be: where do model
railroaders NOW go in NYC for all the things STMFC members require
(and need

I live in the suburbs of NYCity and never have had any luck in
finding a hobby shop that carried a lot of specialized parts.

There's one section of Manhattan that has a couple of big train
shops but the last time I was there they had little of what I wanted
and the big discounts on Tichy kits were "mail order only".

It's costly and time consuming to get around the city.

Believe it or not my local hobby shop is Trainland in Lynbrook which
was very good fpr P2K kits but nothing else. Years ago when they
were Mulrany they carried parts.

There's a little train shop a few miles farther with a lot of
inventory, just not what I want.

In the past Willis hobbies has been pretty good for kits. They have
had 3 progressively larger stores since I've been going there. The
last few visits haven't been very productive and it's over an hour
round trip.

The amount of new items coming out is staggering and if a new
specialty item doesn't sell quickly it stays on their shelves for
years. Plus small, less expensive items get lost in the store. Their
inventory of slow moving items is increasing at a break neck pace.
If they'd have parts from Red Caboose, Intermountain or Bowser
they'd stay there forever along with the Champ, Walthers and Herald
king decals they still have.

I'm sure this is killing a lot of hobby shops as the hobby gets
fragmented.

Andy Carlson has the right idea. I buy few kits these days but most
of the recent ones have been from him. If specialized hobby shops
would show their inventory on the internet maybe they could get some
business.

I used to do a lot of special orders from mail order dealers using
the Walthers catalog. The last few times the dealers couldn't be
bothered to do all the paperwork and still give me a discount. I
think even Walthers is wising up to the fact that specialized parts
sit on the shelve for years.

25 years ago I built a lot of Ambroid kits, waiting for the phone to
ring. In a few months I exhausted all the kits at the few hobby
shops in Rochester. I bought more kits through the classifieds in
MR, at swap meets and then started writing hobby shops. Many
responded with hand written lists, offering kits that had been on
their shelves for years for less than list price.

Ed


FW: fixed the link to the Dremel tool Re: [Espee] New Dremel Tool

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

My original post omitted this group. Use John's link below from tinyurl.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

------ Forwarded Message
From: John Huey <mancosbob@verizon.net>
Reply-To: <Espee@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:41:18 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
To: Espee List <Espee@yahoogroups.com>, <MFCL@yahoogroups.com>, RPM
<RPM-forum@yahoogroups.com>, <bbfcl@yahoogroups.com>,
<ModelersChoice@yahoogroups.com>, RITS <ritslist@storm.simpson.edu>, PCL
List <PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: fixed the link to the Dremel tool Re: [Espee] New Dremel Tool

http://tinyurl.com/lam5u

-------Original Message-------

From: Brian Paul Ehni
Date: 03/17/06 08:32:59
To: Espee List; MFCL@yahoogroups.com; RPM; bbfcl@yahoogroups.com;
ModelersChoice@yahoogroups.com; RITS; PCL List
Subject: [Espee] New Dremel Tool

This looks pretty handy (no pun intended).

http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/03/dremel_introduces_stylus_for_p.
html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


Re: Boxcar anatomy question

Richard Townsend
 

I don't think that is it, because the items I referred to in my original response were on the sides of the cars, under (lower than) the side ladders. Push pole pocket is the only thing called out on the diagram, but as I said in my last post, that's probably not much help. At the risk of creating another roofwalk/outside-braced bit of nomenclature, maybe you could call them corner castings.

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


"leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@yahoo.com> wrote:

Checking a few more pics, I see that some designs of side stirrup
steps �do attach to side faces of these corner pieces.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
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Re: Boxcar anatomy question

Richard Townsend
 

Well, that would appear to be item 52 on the diagram: the "push pole pocket." That's not much help, is it, since some of them don't actually have the pockets on them. Maybe after poling was banned they were called "the items formerly known as push pole pockets." <G>

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


"leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@yahoo.com> wrote:

Rich: �Hmmm...maybe. I don't have access to that issue of PM, �so I'll
try again: �They are the pieces at the outermost point of the four
bottom corners of the car, on the cars that have them. They project
vertically downward from the corner posts, and like Tim suggests, they
look like they may be fabricated or possible cast pieces. Visually
they look like a continuation the side sills wrapping around the
corners, but they usually appear to project a little lower. �On many
cars the grabiron-style steps on the end sills do attach to them.
From the side view, they are immediately toward the ends from the side
stirrup attachment points--i.e., side stirrups usually do not appear
to attach to them. �They sometimes have poling pockets on the end
faces--and that indeed may be their functional origin, more
essentially than as step attachments. � They seem to be common on
1930s-1940s-era steel boxcars and less common on later builds or
rebuilds. Some examples from HO models: �they are part of the casting
on IMRC 12-panel boxcar shells and Red caboose AAR boxcar shells, but
not not IMRC or Kadee PS-1 boxcars.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

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Re: Boxcar anatomy question

leakinmywaders
 

Checking a few more pics, I see that some designs of side stirrup
steps do attach to side faces of these corner pieces.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


Re: wood vs styrene (was a very short intro)

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...> wrote:

Sounds good, Tim, but 'tain't so. Many flat car drawings show
interlocking or T&G planking; and every photo I've ever seen sure looks
like it is laid real tight. I've never seen any crown, either. Anyway,
most expansion from damp is along the grain, and that's across the deck
width, not along the deck from board to board.
I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly backwards, Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the grain, but shrinks and swells appreciably across the grain. This is useful for making barrels, water tanks, and hot tubs water tight; simply fit the boards to be a good fit when dry, then fill with water. As the wood swells, it expands against the steel hoops and tightens to the point that it doesn't leak.

How does this affect flatcar decks? It doesn't. Just like the barrel bands and tank hoops, the flatcar frame is so much stronger than the amount of pressure generated by the swelling wood that the wood just compresses. It doesn't tear loose from its fastenings because the fastenings are HUGE; 1/2" or 5/8" diameter bolts as I recall.

Why drain the deck at all? Railroad cars rarely sit dead level, and anyway the water will just shake or blow off a moving car. Years ago, when I worked for the transit authority, we always wedged or jacked platform decking tight; gaps between the boards were considered a tripping hazard. Evaporation was relied on to dry the deck surface.


Dennis Storzek

140221 - 140240 of 192701